Hi everyone. Several folks on the regular Bullfrog Snot (I can't believe I'm typing that . . .) thread asked about how the product works with the LL Berkshire. I received a sample early today, and here are some preliminary observations. I thought I'd post these results in a separate thread just to make sure they didn't get "lost" in the long earlier thread. First, some background. As some of you know from other posts, I model the NKP, and since the Berkshire was its primary freight locomotive for two decades, I own 9 of them. But I got so frustrated with their lack of pulling capacity, that I tried all sorts of fixes, and finally hit on a combo that worked for me. That combo involved stuffing the boiler shell with tungsten putty to add weight (I got about a half-ounce in there) and using a thin strip of Scotch permanent double-sided tape on the rear drivers (which are geared) to improve traction (a photo of the tape I use is attached). So what I did for this test was take one of my Berks and compared how many cars it would pull with my tape solution vs. Bullfrog Snot vs. clean drivers (no tape or snot). Test conditions: my layout is flat (no grades) but it does have one area where a modestly-long train (20+ 40' cars or reefers) has an S-curve on 16" radii. This turns out to be the toughest pulling area of my layout and where an engine will start slipping with too heavy a load. For this test, I used all Intermountain reefer cars, all weighted to 1 oz., all with MT trucks, lo-profile wheelsets and body-mounted MT couplers. These cars are VERY free-rolling, so keep that in mind with respect to the results below. I applied the snot and let it cure for 4 hours before testing. OK. Here are the results, and then I have some additional observations. Berk with "clean" drivers: 11 cars before slipping on S curve (note that this particular Berk is well-broken in, with about 20 hours of run time). Berk with snot on rear drivers: 20 cars before slipping on S curve. Berk with tape on rear drivers: 31 cars before slipping on S curve. As you can see, the snotted Berk vastly outperformed a Berk with clean drivers. My tape solution was still the traction winner BUT I think that the snot will hold up much better over time than the tape. Moreover, I think that you could apply the snot to the 3d driver set (which is also geared in these engines) and probably improve traction even more, though I have not tried this yet. Some additional observations. Putting the snot on is an acquired skill. You'll probably have to practice a few times before you get it right; I got one driver perfect after my 3d try; the other I did 5 times before I was happy enough to call it quits, but it still wasn't exactly as "perfect" as the other driver. When the snot dries, it is VERY tough; getting it off is a chore. I expect that once it's on, it will last pretty much forever. And if it is on correctly, it dries to a very thin coat that is virtually invisible. The snot does impair electrical pickup on this engine some, but since the tender also has electrical pickup, it shouldn't be a problem - at least, it wasn't a problem in my test. Bottom line: this is a great product, particularly for those of us with "traction-challenged" steamers. I will probably stick with my tape solution for now, just because it has the best traction results, but I'm going to continue to experiment with snot and if I can get up to 25 cars, then I'll probably switch to it completely because of the durability issue. John C.
Interesting. How hard was it to put the tape on just right? How often do you have to replace the tape?
Thanks for the review John. I tried your "tape" method and it works well.:thumbs_up: I asked for a sample of the Bullfrog Snot but haven't received it yet. Have fun taping......
To increase electrical conductivity on the taped driver, I painted the edges of the driver with some Neolube # 2 using an 18/0 sable brush. This works rather well. Have fun taping and Neolubing......
I haven't replaced any tape yet. I've got about 12 hours of running time on a set of tape and it's still going strong. I don't think it is the adhesive on the tape that causes the traction increase, but rather the vinyl substrate of the tape itself, which is kind of "rubbery" even after the adhesive wears off. I've used electrical tape, too, which is even more effective for traction, but found that it was too thick (it interferes with the flange). Putting the tape on is easier than putting snot on, in my opinion. What I do is take about a 1.5" length of tape and stick it to a hard, flat, clean surface (I have a piece of plate glass I use for these kinds of things, but I've also used a Corell dinner plate). Then I take a steel ruler and a hobby knife with a new blade and cut a strip off the tape that is the width of the driver. This strip ends up being about 1.5mm wide (I just eyeball it - it's pretty easy). Then I invert the engine, get the tape started on one of the driver treads, and then apply power so that the drivers just barely turn, and "feed" the tape around the driver. When I get to the beginning point, I stop and cut the remaining tape off with the tip of the hobby knife right at the beginning point (you don't want any overlap, but a tiny gap is OK). It sounds more complicated than it is - the whole process takes me about 5 minutes per driver. John C.
Hi Bob. What is Neolube and where do I get it? I thought about trying something similar with the "conductive paint" that you can get from electronics stores to repair PC boards, but haven't tried it yet . . . John
John C. Nothing to add about the traction, but I notice you added tungsten putty. The putty is less dense than lead so you would end up with the more weight using lead. What you need is solid pure tungsten. I buy it on e-bay, there is a guy who will cut it to length for you. Here is a Berkshire frame with the front notched out for a tungsten cylinder. I was lucky enough to have someone cut slots in a driver for a traction tire. This whole project is on the back burner right now. Tungsten 19.25 grams cm3 Lead 11.34 grams cm3 Tungsten putty 7.9 grams cm3
John : Neolube # 2 serves many purposes. I use it to weather steam loco drivers and side rods. I also use it to blacken the trip pins on MT couplers. Painting the trip pins causes coupler malfunction. With Neolube you can paint the edge of the driver with the double sided tspe traction tire as wheel as the wheel flange. You get can get Neolube # 2 at any e-tailer. MicroMark carries it. THe cost is approximately $14/bottle which should last for years. Below is a photo of two PRR Ls-1 Mikado's with Neolube # 2 painted on the side rods and drivers.
Hi again, Bob. Yep, I DEFINITELY need some of that. Those drivers look terrific, and I need some way to get the side rods and valve gear looking weathered that doesn't involve paint. Thanks for the tip! John
Neolube downunder? Any Aussie listeners know of a source for Neolube in Australia, or the maybe same product under a different name? Micro Mark only ships it UPS surface (ie; not overseas) because of dangerous goods regulations. We can get Bullfrog Snot sent here but not Neolube.:tb-biggrin:
John: Neolube # 2 is your answer. I does a great job on drivers, side rods, valve gears and coupler trip pins. Get yourself an 18/0 brush and you're all set.
Neolube # 2's generic name is: Colloidal Graphite in Isopropanol You can probably find it under that name "down under". Have fun with Colloidal Graphite in Isopropanol.....
I use the double stick scotch tape method too which enables my locos to pull 8 cars up a 5.5% grade on one side of my layout. I tried the bullfrog snot and agree with everything you say --- took a few tries to get it right and did improve traction but not enough to pull the same cars up the same grade. And the tape is MUCH easier to apply (used the same method you do) and MUCH cheaper - $1.25 for more than a lifetime supply, so though I haven't had to replace it, I won't mind doing it when/if it becomes necessary. And it even does some track cleaning!
Phill, got your PM, I'll try your suggestion after the holidays. Looks like Neolube is another of the many products mentioned in the US model RR press that's unheard of down here, I googled Colloidal Graphite in Isopropanol and all I got was a lot of scientific reports on the subject that I've got to get a university degree to read. My snot arrived yesterday and I've got a VO1000 curing as I type this, five days from the US to Australia over the Christmas holidays was quicker than I expected. The customs declaration said 'Bullfrog Snot, baby traction tires', I would have expected that to ring alarms at Customs for any number of reasons.:tb-biggrin:
Neolube The original is from PBL http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2002/Neolube2.html They import brass Sn3 locomotive that usually sell for over $1000. I'd guess they got tired of everybody ordering a $5 jar of neolube. A year or two later Micro Mark started selling it: http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=83181 I have the original stuff and it is great, but I'd guess this new stuff is just as good.
One of the things I've always liked about Aussies is that although the Gov. there is less than wonderful in some ways, esp. about what we call 2A, they DO have a WONDERFUL sense of humor in other things, and stuff like product names is one of them. I suspect that if you find the Customs office where your BFS came through, you'll find Customs' officer uniform prints ALL OVER the floor where they were ROFLTAO! Either that, the guy is a fellow MRR type, or he is so STOOPID that he didn't figure out what it meant AT ALL! There ARE some like that, too.
