Looking for info on working in Whitefish

Hey everybody, I've been interested in working for BNSF for a while now and have been doing my best to find out as much as I can while living in Florida. I'm planning on attending NARS and getting hired as a conductor trainee.
First off, operating crews are based in Whitefish, MT, right? If so, does anybody here have any experience at this location. I've gone through several thread in here about what to expect after getting hired, now I'm just looking for more specific info about this location or the locations near it. I don't mind getting moved around alot or being away for long periods of time (what 16 year old doesn't?) so you don't have to warn me about that.

My only real frets are getting permanently transferred to middle of nowhere plains towns like Shelby or Havre. Any thoughts?

I'd appreciate any and all advice.

Thanks alot,

Paul

 

Being from Florida, you will consider anywhere in Montana "the middle of nowhere".
Whitefish has a very HIGH cost of living, you may have to live in Columbia Falls or Kalispell. You most likely will have to settle for a job anywhere (Havre-Shelby) in order to build seniority before you can chose your turn.
BTW, Shelby isn't bad at all, but you WILL freeze your butt off .

 

Would you consider the NW a more interesting region to work in? I'm kinda looking for a place completely opposite of FL to live, so big cities on really flat terrain (like Spokane, from what I've heard, tell me if I'm wrong) don't really seem worth relocating across the country for. If I get hired out of, say, Whitefish or Libby, how often should I expect to be relocated during my first few years? And once I finally get out of the yard, how far will I typically be hauling trains? Should I expect to be put up in a hotel most of the time?

My other choice would be to work for MRL, probably out of Missoula. Seems like it's a bit more friendly for a RR, though the pay is decently less. Any comments there?

BTW, thanks for the fast response!

 

I am gonna be "grandpa" now,especially since I am old enough to be your grandfather.
I suggest you go to college, either a JuCo or a 4yr college and get some higher education
in you and possibly look for a better job than railroading. A high school graduate entering the work force is not likely to get a technically responsible job like railroading with little or
no background employment. When I say technically responsible I mean that the railroad is entrusting property,theirs and their clients,worth tens of millions of dollars to a group of trained and skilled employees. Railroading,believe it or not,is a rather highly competitive job field. They are not likely to hire a young person just out of high school,with limited skills and not even legally an adult(under civil law)and entrust heavy,
expensive machines carrying valuable cargo to them! You are also looking to relocate, that will show as a "red flag" to any employer. You are also interested in relocating to an
area that is a completely different lifestyle,not to mention climate,than what you are used to. Unless you've ever trudged around in knee-deep or deeper snow,many times,you are never going to conceive of having to walk a brake set and release,or inspect a train a mile in length or longer in that sort of weather.Dont laugh or "pooh-pooh" that. If you're ever hired by a railroad, you'll be doing it sooner than you think!!!!
You want to remove yourself from whatever support network you have now and try to live more or less by yourself in area that will come as "culture shock" to you! Good Luck,
young man!The only advantage you have is that you will have no obligations to anyone save for yourself. That means you will have no excuse to NOT be on call for any job.
The other side of that page is that by working all the time, you will find it quite difficult,but not impossible, to establish relationships with others(read that as girlfriend/wife/SOP). Montana and Wyoming are NOT places that are as attractive as Florida for finding available companionship. If you have nothing against celibacy, then
you are OK. I live in Chicago,a big city, lotsa people, and I cant begin to tell you how many railroaders I worked with, in this terminal area,that have become bitter,single,lonesome men & women because they couldn't or wouldn't take the time off
from the railroad to develop a relationship. Almost 1/2 of the people I worked with who were married had been divorced at least once(and the RR was the main cause of the split). I suggest you re-think your future plans. If railroading is still in them, at least wait
until you are in your 20s or 30s,with some higher education and employment background
behind you.
Good luck to you on whatever you choose to do with your life!

Charlie
Retired locomotive engineer
BNSF Rwy, Aurora IL

 

Well how did you do it? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really trying to find out how others did it).

I've been to Montana, know people there, lived in snow, and I attempted to make it clear that I recognize all the responsibilities and inconveniences of a railroad lifestyle. I'm actually one of the few that crave not knowing when I have to be at work and for how long. I appreciate your concerns, but with all due respect, I'm looking for info pertaining to the job, not how good my chances are of getting divorced or why I shouldn't do it. I'm well aware of that. I have a decent amount of experience operating and maintaining locomotives and ROTC keeps me disciplined enough to handle it. I actually am planning on taking online classes once I get hired, but it's not an immediate priority of mine, especially considering the fact that only about 14 percent of locomotive engineers have ANY college degrees.

 

So then I'm guessing it would be wiser to get hired in the Pacific Northwest Division? If not that, then would MRL be a better option or have they been hurting too?

And yeah, I know I've got some time on my hands. Still have to graduate and enroll in NARS. But I figure, better to have a decent idea of what you're doing ahead of time than to be scrambling to find a decent paying job in a place you know nothing about for a company you know nothing about.

 

If you are not specifically interested in just one road, it seems to me like I hear about openings at UP in and around Portland, Oregon, fairly often. Both BNSF and UP hire around here periodically.

I think the weather is a little less brutal than in Montana, but that's just my opinion.

 

OK, so you remind me of myself at that age. I had my heart set on railroading, absolutely loved the idea of it. I started working for a tourist short line when I was 15. Out of High School, I decided to go to College. Excellent idea, majored in music. Got burned in my third semester... by this time I was working as a Brakeman for the short line. I started watching the job postings that BNSF had listed (before the website, had to call a recording to listen to the postings)... Well, turns out BNSF only required a High School Diploma... I hand delivered a resume to the San Bernardino office... low and behold, the called me for an interview. At the ripe old age of 19, I packed the truck, drove to Stockton, tested and interviewed... A few weeks later, I got a packet with istructions for medical and DMV stuff. Finished that and was told to report to Fresno. I packed the truck again, drove to Fresno... BNSF provided lodging while training. Three months later I was marked up, working as a switchman in Bakersfield... Two months later I was cut off... chased my job as far as Fort Worth, then took a few months off and got back to work in Bakersfield... 10 months after I was cut off... After a couple of years, the cut offs ended, was holding a regular Conductor job... then came Engine Service... took my promotion, scored highest in my class... also the youngest in my class (23)... Ever since, I've been forced, bumped, forced, bumped, etc... can't hold a good job, if I take a Conductor job, I'll just get forced to a Yard Engine... Not so fun anymore... The operations testing is out of hand... can't pee without someone watching, it seems...

My whole point is... Railroading is not the "glamouous" job it used to be... You will be a warm body to fill the seat... A number to call in the middle of the night... The carriers want you to be available all the time(though that is about to change). They want to pay you as little as they can and try to "fire" you constantly... Now, I love the job I do. I love running trains, but the carriers feel you should not have the slightest bit of enjoyment during your carreer... You having fun is a safety hazard... A lot of rails are stuck with railroading because they(myself included) do not have the edumacation to make comparable wages in another field of employment. You will run into many, many misserable, tired, sick, arrogant, dirty minded men that will try everything in to book to break your spirit... to asimilate you into the Borg Collective, so to speak...

All warnings aside... I feel you're pretty set on what you want to do... don't let any of us run you off, we are just making sure your eyes/mind are open. I do reccomend you get an education first.. I regret not finishing my education. I don't regret my descision seniority wise, as it's about all we have left. NARS is a good program, but when it comes time for job placement, you'd better take what you can get. System seniority covers about 75% of the system. PNW districts will limit you to 3-4 terminals, so keep that in mind as well. With the ecomony in the toilet, times are going to be very hard for the younger rails... I went through it after I hired out, nearly lost my rear end in the process...

Good luck,

 

It's not just the railroads.:tb-mad:

 

Thanks so much for the detailed responses, I really appreciate it, keep em comin! Most of the bad things I've heard so far are exactly what I had feared might happen working for such a monstrous company and is why I thought about MRL as a possibility in the first place. Are the extra pay and more widespread operations of BNSF worth the extra hassles they cause you?
I'll probably try and end up somewhere in the PNW division, quite possibly Vancouver (Wa) from what I've heard here. Has anybody here found it at all possible to pursue some sort of online degree while working for the RR? I really want to try and further my ed., but seniority at the RR comes first. I've heard too many stories from people in similar fields who say they essentially wasted 4 years and tons of money on a college ed. they didn't even necessarily need... though I guess it's always nice to keep your options open.

And just to give myself something to look forward to, about how far will a road engineer typically operate? (Say, from Vancouver to.....?) And what other terminals are engineers/conductors based at in the PNW besides Spokane, Seattle, and Vancouver?

 

Railroading was my 3rd and final career. Being a railroader,especially an engineer,was a childhood fantasy of mine. I went railroading,a MAJOR career change,at a point in my life
when I should have been preparing myself for retirement. I still consider myself as having been the token "older American". When I hired out(in the mid 90s)the railroads were desparate for people. They were hiring anyone,clean and sober,with an "unflawed" personal history. I answered a want ad for the BNSF in the paper and was contacted by Personnel Dept . About 150 people were invited to attend this session, after the greeting,agenda and
basics were defined, we were given a coffee break and were told that anyone who couldn't
accept or meet the "ground rules" just discussed, could leave the meeting with no qualms.
About 1/2 of the people left. Then we took a battery of tests and were told we would be contacted further if we were considered. I went for a personal interview with a personnel
rep a couple of weeks later. All in all, about 20 people were hired from that session. The company sent us to NARS at their expense and paid us a student stipend plus meal expenses during classroom training.(7 weeks for my class). After that we had almost 6 months of qualifying at the various terminals and yards in the Chicago terminal area. We also qualified as hostlers, commuter trainmen and qualified on Amtrak operating rules. All that time we were paid a student rate(basically a flat daily rate). Upon completing our qualifying we marked up on whatever board we could and went from there.
Education... Mine was in earth sciences,Geology specifically, I never worked as a Geologist.
That discipline has had so many major changes, I would have to go back to school to catch up!
I'm glad you feel that you could handle a cold climate, with raw,bitterly cold winters. I have
dealt with them my whole life and I'm still not used to them. I tolerate them and I worked outside because I had to! I eventually went through the engineers training program and was promoted to engineer. I worked as an engineer(other than as a student) for only a very very short time before I retired. I took an early retirement due to physical problems which were becoming a safety hazard. I dont regret fulfilling my childhood dream,but I did
what I did mostly because I needed a better paying job in order to pay college tuitions for
my two children(who,at this point in time,have not completed their education!!!)I had the full support of my long-suffering wife in changing jobs with no guarantee that I would actually pass my conductors qualifying exam. Most of my parenting "duties" were already
behind me when I hired out. I am still married, but if I wasn't I know I would have had little
free time to build relationships. I stress that because it is a normal,healthy psychological thing. One thing that piques my interest is why you have this burning desire to place yourself so far away from home. And please take another bit of advice, stay away from the
"wooden axle" pikes. Your chances and opportunities are better with a big Class 1.Sorry if I offended those who work for smaller carriers.
At any rate, it is nice chatting with you. If I offended you, it was not intentional. I think you can do a lot better than being a rail grunt. You have youth on your side. I will add one
other thing, my roomate at NARS for conductor training was a 19y/o from a nearby 'burb.
We met on the plane going to K.C. We became good friends and he is very much like a son to me. We also took engineer training at the same time. He did have some college AND his father is an engineer on the Santa Fe side of the RR.(the BNSF believes in nepotism).
Once again, I wish you the best. If I can offer any other advice or answer a question, dont
hesitate to ask.

Charlie

P.S. Most of my instructors at NARS had graduate degrees and ALL of them were working railroaders.

 

Thanks for all the advice, no offense taken. For better or worse, I'm not one of the many who wants to get into railroading because I don't know what else to do and at a glance, it offers great benefits with pretty decent pay. The railroads have been in my heart since I was three and it's a disease that I don't believe I can, or want to, fight off. Those who do fight off their life's cravings for a "more realistic lifestyle" seem to always end up bored, stressed, miserable, and worst of all, prone to repetitious days and patterns from which there is not escape until retirement. Why live for the weekends with a terrible job when you can live every day for a pain in the ass job that you love?
I can still use a ton more advice, experiences, and explanations (my other questions were in my last post)... that's just my reasoning for staying so commited to working towards a railroad career... probably with BNSF somewhere in the NW. As for wanting to go so far away from home, that's a long story and no it doesn't involve trying to get away from family. If I really decide to stick with those I know, I'll end up with NS in Pittsburgh, but that's a WAY different story.

BTW, would I at least get some amount of paid vacation time?? Sick leave???

 

Ah, sick time, sure, no pay for it. Laying off sick is about the same as laying of I don't want to go to work. Vaction time 2 weeks starting year #2, you can get one week year 1 but the stars have to line up. Vaction time ends up at 5 weeks after like 25 or 30 years. You start with 2 personal leave days a year these max at 10 or 11 after like 25 or 30 years. Some of this may be a little different in the Northwest, but sould be more or less the same.

Adam

 

Ummm... that sounds exactly like what my grandpa tells me about working for the Union Pacific from the 1930s through the mid-1970s.

I had earlier considered going into railroading and my grandfather took me aside and explained all the interrupted Thanksgiving dinners and missed moments of child-rearing and all the times he got "fired" and all the times he got rehired and his partial hearing loss and the whole bit. If there were glorious days of old in railroading they were certainly NOT in that time period.

 

Just thought of a some other things you might want to mull over. If you do an overview
of "blue collar job" salaries, you'll find that railroading comes in pretty much in the middle.
The way you make money in railroading is with the overtime and the salary arbitraries.
You can make a helluva lot more money and have regular hours as an electrician,or plumber,pipefitter or steamfitter or GM auto mechanic. Railroading does have good benefits, the medical is the best I've ever had! Most,if not all,of the Class 1s offer a 401K,which I would strongly urge everyone to join. The BNSF is not a "matching" employer,ie
all the money in your 401K is your own contribution. Most carriers have jobs that have regular hours and rest days. Some carriers offer guaranteed rest day extra boards. Most of the carriers are trying to negotiate away from the mileage based wage formula(a "basic day" wage is = 130 miles)and instead pay "trip rates". That system,as it stands now, is fraught with the "undropped shoe". I wont explain that here,but a lot of railroaders can probably figger out what I mean. Until the carriers get serious about negotiating wages and benefits with real substance instead of the "gimmicks" they keep dreaming up(the 130 mile basic day is one of them), the rank & file will keep resisting their efforts. There are too many other things the carriers are trying to do that are jeopardizing future employment opportunities(eg remote control operation,one man operation,trip rates). You may have a more difficult time in being hired than anyone thinks! At any rate, once again I wish you the best. Keep us posted!

Charlie

 

"all the times he got fired"?? This is the second or third time in this topic I've heard about getting fired.... yet not really getting fired. What exactly is meant by that phrase in the railroad biz? Is it like getting put on probation, or not called in for a long time, or moved, or what?

And Charlie, thanks for all the follow-ups. I'm assuming by all that I've heard from you and SP4009 in particular that it's gonna be pretty necessary to know every aspect of the rules, my benefits, and every detail in between inside and out to make sure my butt's covered and I don't get cheated... or "fired". What exactly does everybody get fired for so often anyway?

On a side note... Assuming I start out as a great conductor and don't piss anybody off and the economy improves a little in the next 3 years, about how long should it be before I get out of the yard and onto the road?

And some other stupid little questions: How do you make overtime on a job with no set hours? And how do you calculate mileage based pay if you're working in a yard all day? And finally, is it really possible for an experienced engineer to make around $100K/year as some sites and articles suggest?

Again, I appreciate any answers and advice, including those having nothing to do with questions I don't think to ask.

Thank you all for the facts you've given me so far,

Paul

 

Since you asked about getting fired...

One of the times my grandpa got fired, it was because he refused to head out on a train. He was a conductor, and he knew the rules pretty much inside and out - probably a good quality for a conductor to have and probably a big reason he had no accidents the whole time.

Well, they called him to come down to Albina Yard and head out on a train. He showed up, and saw a string of several reefers just ahead of the caboose, each with a small diesel engine running the refrigeration. He said that the train could not proceed this way and that the reefers would have to be moved to a point farther from the caboose.

They told him to get on the train because it had to go.

He said that it was a safety issue, and that the crew risked health problems and possible asphyxiation, and also cited the rules that were being violated.

They told him to get on the train, and that they had no time.

He said that they had enough time to not endanger the crew, and offered to figure out a fast way to move the reefers.

They told him to get on the train or get fired.

He refused.

They fired him.


He went and got a job doing something else. His union and his buddies fought for him to get his job back for sixteen months, and he was finally reinstated and was given back pay.


(I think I might have related this story in another thread over a year ago.)

Anyway... that gives you an idea of the sorts of things that can get you fired.

 

What SteamDonkey just related is NOT hyperbole! His G.F. was probably fired for insubordination(I dont know for sure)but later investigations discovered those charges unfounded and he was re-hired. As SteamDonkey,and any other railroader will tell you, you damned well better know the rules backwards and forwards. I will relate a story or two on that. Go to the "Railfanning Discussions" board for that. As a "newbie" I was told that the
three quickest ways to get fired in our terminals were(not necessarily in this order) Rule G violation,insubordination, or stealing from METRA(the commuter train operator). The biggest dichotomy in railroading is the time,effort and money the carrier spends on training you only to try to find ways to fire you. As others have said, keep your nose clean(quite literally!)and your record clear and you wont have a problem. Undoubtedly at some point in your career you will be called into an investigation for something or other. Just make sure you have a good representative,most union locals have a member(s)who are skilled in negotiating and defense. Remember with a railroad you are guilty,whether proven innocent or not. The thing is to not give the carrier cause to go after you. Know the rules,obey them! If you see a "weed weasel" spying on you, pass a signal on to the rest of your crew
that you are being watched. The big thing is to work safely, I would always tell students who worked with me to do EXACTLY as they were trained by the instructors. Forget what some of the "old heads" tell you, they are the ones most prone to injury and death. Earlier this year a friend of mine,a conductor,was killed on the job.He broke a rule and was crushed to death. He had 30+ years of service and could have retired soon. He was a knowledgeable railroader,good to work with,a tad greedy,but a genuinely nice guy in spite.
I would also tell the students that I wouldn't tease them for being a bit awkward,but to be safe and stop the movement if they were confused or frightened. As an engineer I would tell the students to pass me "BIG" signals when that was applicable. Exaggerated PROPER
hand signals are much easier to see in low light conditions and from greater distances.
If you are ever caught on a Rule G(use/abuse of drugs/alcohol)violation, it is a real toss-up if you get your job back. Most guys do, but be ready to take post-incident treatment/training. Violate Rule G a 2nd time within 10 years and you are history,you dont get a 3rd strike. I know several railroaders who are now "history" because they did "nose candy" or couldn't keep the cork in the bottle,or both. Stay "clean and sober"!!! I realize that is difficult in these times and todays society, but it CAN be done!
Salary....
Most of the "big buck" guys are the ones who can hold the freight pools. They generally pay the most. Yard engines are generally shift work and pay a "basic day" A "basic day" in yard service may or may not be the same as road service but it is still on a mileage basis.
If you are a "scheduled" employee,ie. one who belongs to a union, your rates of pay are determined by contract negotiation and a "schedule" of rates will be provided to you showing the rates of pay for each job category. Overtime is earned when your service exceeds the time/mileage stated in the schedule. The "pool" guys normally earn a static amount whether they work 6 hrs or 12 hrs on a given trip. Their overtime kicks in on terminal delays, run-arounds,away from home terminal allowance, "tow-in" time,lap-backs etc. Some jobs have overtime built into them,ie.the METRA train jobs. Most of them have
a "split rest" and overtime mileage is figured into the salary rates. Engineers make the most money usually,their rates of pay are higher. However in my case, I actually lost money when I worked as an engineer since the jobs I worked were lower paying than the
commuter trainman's job I held!!! LOL Had I stayed on longer, I would be making some good bucks. You can make BIG $$$$ as a trainman/switchman but you will be on duty all the time. We had a switchman at Cicero Yard(he's now retired)was making 90K a year. He worked his rest days and some of his vacation but he was happy!. Nice guy to work with,funny as hell but there wasn't a gahdammed thing about railroading he didn't know
and he could tell some outrageously funny railroad stories!
Well, I'll let you go for now. I know I'll think of something else,in the meantime I will post a story over on the Railfanning Discussions board.

Charlie

P.S. look for the story on the "last page" of the "storytime with Charlie" thread(Railfanning Discussions board)