Hello Flashblackman; I just noticed your general posting to the thread regarding Airbrush Recommendations and the fact that your board policy takes umbrage at a member stating discoveries regarding pricing and asking the collective membership about the place for the best price. I understand that you have retailers; i.e., advertisers, that support this forum. Good for you. I also understand that you have them listed. Wonderful. However, since there is no indication of who these retailers are, what there policies are, and what it is exactly that they sell; it is difficult to know unless a member checks out each and every one. Maybe you have sufficient spare time to do this, but I would hazard a guess that members who have a day job may not. I know that I do not; hence the reason for my query. Perhaps you could do all of the membership, and your advertisers, a favor, by categorizing the list of advertisers according the to products and services that they offer. Perhaps a brief list of the categories of items that they sell would be helpful. Perhaps a small ad appears in the sidebar of a topic that is relevant to the discussion at hand. Anything to help the membership avoid checking out each and every one every time we need to buy something. Otherwise your list of supporting advertisers (retailers) is nothing more than that - a list. In this economy it is more important that ever to find great service at a great price. The collective membership has that knowledge inherently. A simple question allows others in the membership to draw upon that wealth of knowledge: that's the pure and simple reason that any of us even bother to participate in an online forum. For the knowledge. Giving preference to your supporting advertisers is only sound business sense. However, providing as little information regarding their capabilities as you do, then expecting the membership to perform an exhaustive amount of work individually to determine what they can do and cannot do - because you have done nothing except collect revenue - is at cross purposes to the forum. I joined to find ready answers based on the collective experiences of the membership. I did not join to do in-depth searches of unknown retailers of whom I have no information as a basis point as to what they actually do. I do not have that kind of time to waste. I volunteered some information in order to contribute to the knowledge base. I posed a question in order to extract perhaps better information from that knowledge base. If this is contrary to the policies of this forum, then it is a simple matter to go elsewhere. That's the beauty of the Internet: the knowledge is out there. Sometimes with reasonable restrictions; sometimes not. Regards, David Martin, Ph.D.
Mr. Martin- Products? No problem about opnions. Retailers? Nope. There will always be a difference in opinion on various retailers. If you are looking for price only, go on line and find the least expensive. If it is service, cooperation, etc., we get back to good and bad experiences of posters here. The threads ALWAYS degenerate into knocks at some and boosts for others.
When you start letting advertisers push you around you lose all credibility and utility and eventually any reason for being. If someone wants to know our experiences with airbrushes or other products and dealers and you won't let us help them then why should you expect us to come here? Regards, Dave Branum
Dr. Martin, Our policy about retailers is derived from our experience with hundreds of or perhaps a thousand or more posts on retailers or closely related topics over a period of years. Seven months membership and 17 posts on Trainboard does not give you much experience here. Our policy may not be scientific but neither is your complaint about "in-depth searches of unknown retailers." We don't expect our "membership to perform an exhaustive amount of work individually"--this is a forum, not a research colloquium. Our collective membership represents only a very small percentage of the collective knowledge about airbrushes. Train modelers do use airbrushes, but so do many other modelers. But the real experts are the graphic artists (and a few fine art creators) who use them every day. The collective knowledge base about airbrushes is a universe far beyond that of Trainboard, which is truly only a small bubble on the order of 10^4. How many airbrush experts do we have in our small bubble compared to the 10^9 or 10^12 or 10^15 or whatever order of magnitude you chose for the Internet knowledge base? Research is part of science. You could search Trainboard for airbrush topics, and find a wealth of information since our beginning. Scientifically, that might be the best approach to draw upon our wealth of knowledge. Unscientifically, you could also just Google airbrushes, and quite quickly extract much more precise information than we can possible present at Trainboard. Yes, that's "the beauty of the Internet: the knowledge is out there". We're not a knowledge base; we are a community. There's a difference. A knowledge base represents the library in a community; that library, through search tools, is available to you and other members. A community involves much more than a static library; it's dynamic, and it has many more purposes than a library. I don't buy the "time to waste" complaint. Airbrushes are trivial to me; the vast majority have more capability than I will ever develop. As an experienced modeler, I can extend that to perhaps 90% of other users. I don't have a Ph.D.; I'm EBD, which will never happen. You were correct: if you can't find it at Trainboard, there are many other beautifully knowledgeable sites elsewhere. If you'll research the site a little, you will see we do provide basis points for a wide range of subjects. I don't buy your "nothing except collect revenue" argument. Our policy extends to all retailers, advertisers or not. I think I can say we've run the retailer experiment on the order of hundreds of times. Every time the experiment has blown up. We at Trainboard are not idiots, expecting a different result in the N+1 thread.
Did all this come from someone mentioning one retailer for Iwata airbrushes? I researched vendors for Iwata. Very very few if any sold train supplies. Most were in the art world. Iwata airbrushes are expensive compared to Badger or others. I sure would like to have someone let me know where I can save a few bucks. I don't see how this violates Trainboard policies. About a month ago there was a thread about a company selling airbrush compressors. Nobody seemed to have a problem there. I completely understand the policy as it relates to model train E Tailers. For every few compliments, there is bound to be a dissatisfied customer. Those were actually entertaining threads. I didn't give them much credibility, but they were still entertaining. Some people really got their knickers in a knot. LOL However, this is airbrush stuff. On the fringe of our normal train topics. This is kind of like where to buy blue foam or homosote, or glue. i like the Iwata HP-CH brush. Prices vary widely. Look hard. I wish zi could mention some vendors, but I won't.
For my modeling, I use a single action. I have used a double action, but just briefly. I can see where those doing a lot of air brush work might want a double action. I am amazed at the work a very expensive, high end brush can accomplish. Much too detailed for me.
Pete S. and ctxm- You have been around here long enough to have seen dozens of vendor threads and what happens with them, advertisers or not. Incredible harm can be done to an N-Scale e-tailer, advertiser or not, stemming from one thread that starts "Has anyone dealt with XXX?" or "Where can I get the cheapest YYY". Someone will reply with a recommendation. Then someone else who had a bad experience with the e-tailer will chime in loud and clear. Others will follow. Those with the complaints will step up onto a soapbox more readily so they can slam and do harm to a seller. Then, soon to follow, will be the defenders of the retailer. Then, everyone starts xxxing on everyone's shoes. Then the thread gets locked for flaming. I have seen this time and time and time again. Have I personally not been satisfied with some e-tailers? Sure. Could that person be an advertiser here. Perhaps. BUT, the set policy here is to not permit threads of this nature at all, and not just shut them down or invoke the rule when it is one of the advertisers here. The rule goes across the board and, in my opinion, it is a good one that was well thought out and the result of much discussion and observation of what happens each and every time the issue is raised.
I agree with the rule regarding model train E Tailers. I have a feeling that some damage has been done to certain E Tailers that were bashed. However, I feel that airbrush suppliers are not model train E Tailers. Nor are homosote or blue foam retailers. Without editorializing the merits of the companies involved, I would like to see where we can get an Iwata airbrush or blue foam. I did a search of Iwata airbrushes a while back. The prices were all over the map. some quite expensive and some not. At the time I would have welcomed other TrainBoard members input on where they found a good deal. I would like to see these issues handled on a case by case basis and not painted with a broad brush. This is a great forum. I have learned a lot from the members. This is the first forum I look at. I think the moderators have done a very good job keeping the forum on the right track. With that said, I will end my comments on this topic.
Pete, Essentially they are handled on a case by case basis. We try very hard to be fair. Just as threads about retailers and etailers invariably go downhill, so do threads about our policies. We don't make nor enforce policies as a sign of authority or superiority; we make these actions from fairly long experience about what works and what doesn't. I'd aspire to have everything we do here to be scientifically correct and open for academic debate at length, but forums don't work that way.
Question for the moderators. I am one of those types always looking for the best price on specific items. This stems from barely having enough money to have a hobby these days. I have purchased items from a few of the Trainboard advertisers most notably Green Frog and the most recent my first experience with Fifer Hobby which was absolutely wonderful. I am all for supporting those who support keeping this place alive as it is my main source of info. However, at the end of the day my wallet dictates I have to find the best deals or do without. Getting back on track to my question. If I want to know the best price on an item, is it within the rules to say "I'm looking for the best price on Atlas Locomotives please keep responces to private message only"? My heart tells me the guy was asking a harmless question and a mountain was made of a molehill. At the same time being a moderator myself on various other sites in the past and knowing what a thankless job it is at times, I know you have to sometimes prevent fires before they start. I do look at many of the advertisers on that list and have no idea who they are or what they sell and I gotta be blunt and say I'm too lazy to research and find out who they are, what they sell, and what their reputation is. Would be nice for either TB or the advertisers themselves to add a few words by their name to entice buyers.
Elwood, I think low price etailers for N scale are pretty well known. Their prices change much faster than posters here at TB can keep up. There are threads here about good buys but, in the overall scheme of N scale etailing, they are hit or miss. I think that Googling items will generally produce the best price on specific items. I find it hard to believe that any Google or Trainboard search involves an exhaustive amount of research. Private messages are always OK, and totally private.
As a follow-up to Pete's statement, just because you ask folks to PM you doesn't mean they won't use that topic to say this store is Good/Bad and hence why the topics tend to get locked and the policy posted. :tb-nerd: :tb-nerd: :tb-nerd: :tb-nerd:
AIRBRUSHES... :tb-err:I think I am leaning twards a double action. Too many choices... I think since Iwata seems to be realy good and a Cadillac people have been missing, as in not realizing they existed, Maybe it will be worth a shot.
Back to the original topic, eh ? I LOVE my Iwata -- can't believe I suffered for as long as I did w/ my old airbrush. Worth every penny I paid for it imho.
I'm ready to buy an airbrush and compressor, and read through this thread. I'm considering the Iwata BR or CR bush along with a Silver Jet compressor. I have a couple of questions: For n scale work, do you have a preference for the BR or CR brush? The BR shoots a smaller width and holds less paint. Does it make a difference whether a compressor has an air tank? The Silver Jet does not have an air tank and is less expensive than one with a tank. Does having a tank affect the quality of the spray process?
I would go with the CR for versatility. You might also look at the HP-CS. I would not buy an Iwata compressor. The smaller ones like the Silver Jet do not deliver enough PSI to spray the kind of paint we use. Silver Jet has a max PSI of 18. You definitely need a tank. For the price of a Silver Jet, you can get a nice compressor and tank. Splurge on the brush. Save on the compressor with tank. A tank capacity of 1 gallon or less is fine. You want to be able to spray from zero to 40PSI for our hobby work. In reality, you will probably shoot between 15-30PSI. Your goal is a clean, steady, moisture free source of air. Make sure you have a good regulator and moisture trap. Those can be bought separately and added. I just bought a Campbell Hausfield compressor with tank at Target for less than $70.00. Sears, Lowes and Home Depot sell small compressors. A really good source is tcpglobal.com. They have all the IWATA accessories in addition to the brushes. I have done a lot of research. You want to buy somewhere that has the accessories and the brushes, not just the brushes. (I am not endorsing TCPglobal. I am stating that they seem to have stock and parts where others don't) Let us know how you like the brush.
Peter, thank for sharing your thoughts. Can you say more about the differences between the CS and HP-CS? I read that the HP-CS was better at shooting heavier paint and has a higher paint flow. While researching air compressors I found a reconditioned Campbell Hausfield 2 gal twin stack for $49 and free shipping on their website. That's on the way. I'm looking forward to kicking my paint efforts up a notch. I've always used rattle can paint and often disappointed with the result. I bought a pair of unfinished cabooses last year that I want to do up in M&StL livery. Nancy
I have always been interested in M&Stl. Just not much available in N Scale. Last night I did a little research after you said you were looking at the CR and BR. The BR has a very small paint resevour. Good for detailing, but probably not enough to paint a car without refilling. The CR has a larger cup. I have been saving up for an Iwata HP-CH. At $200.00, I was having a hard time justifying the expense. I haven't bought one. It looks like the Revolution CR has a .5mm needle nozel combination The CS has a ,3mm combination. The CR is billed as an entry level brush. To me, that means cheaper components or cheaper construction. The CR seems to sell for $72.00 while the CS is around $120. I can't find many differences. I am going to Art Supply Warehouse in Westminster, CA this week. They are supposed to have both in stock. I will ask what the difference is. I have decided I really don't need the CH at $200.00 and can live with the CR or CH. In the end, any of the above brushes will do very well in our hobby. I will post when I find out the differences.
I keep a lookout for M&StL rolling stock and buy whatever I find; box cars, gondolas, flat cars, piggy back, covered hoppers, but no caboose. I found decals for the F series locomotives and I think I can cannibalize them to get a caboose lettered. It won't be exactly prototype but it will be close enuf. Atlas produced the Alco RS1 in 3 different paint schemes and I have all of them. They run well with the TCS CN decoders. M&StL had 9 paint schemes. I would love to find an F3 or GP9 in green/yellow. After I get the hang of painting maybe I'll take on an extra credit project and paint the schemes I want. Nancy
