I'm trying to squeeze a yard into my 4x8 layout design and only way possible is to lower the yard, which means a grade leading into the yard. So far it is a 4% grade, but I'm still working on it. Its looking more and more like the best I can do is maybe a 3% grade unless I can some how squeeze in a helix, which is not to promising. As I was trying to work out this problem, it hit me that I might be making a mistake. What are your thoughts? Should I just give up the yard? The only other alternative is to loose my town, but then it would be nothing but track with trains and I don't want that.
With a small 4x8 it's hard to do everything you want. In my opinion you are making a mistake with a graded yard lead, especially one at 3% - you'll hardly be able to switch without using multiple engines. A staging yard is a little different, but even then it'll take more power to take a train out of staging than run it around the layout. With a 4x8 the best idea is to keep it simple. There was a lot more I wanted to do on my layout, but due to my space limitation I cut it down to something manageable for the given area.
The question of grades and the various scales has been covered several times in this forum. It can be done, the first problem I see is the location of magnetic uncouplers, (if you use them). That area needs to be level for consistent results. Plan carefully, and do a little experimenting 'till you're sure. And please share what you've learned. Go for it, Bobby.
Thanks. I was afraid of that. I've spent so much time working on the grade problem that I wasn't even thinking of uncoupling and power problems. Maybe I need to move the town. I'll still need the grade to get to the town Station. Well, its back to the drawing board.
Johnny I'm in agreement with the previous posts. A yard lead on an incline might be more trouble than it's worth. I was looking at your track design in your profile. Do you have enough room to put a staging yard at the end of the yards tracks? Since your current yard tracks are most likely level maybe use one for your lead track and move the yard to removable staging yard. I remember an article where a guy who had limited room made a staging yard that was on benchwork that had wheels. When he was done he rolled it off to one side. I think it was HO scale but I'm sure you could make the concept work in N-scale. I left you a message in your profile. SantaFeDan
Actually the drawing in my profile has changed dramatically. I haven't up dated it yet because I still had the grade issues. I'll up date it in a few but it will not be complete. Oh, its N scale using code 55.
A hump yard? If the lead track is the only grade, and the yard itself is flat, and you can exit from the other side of the yard, say through a helix back up, and you used magnetic uncoupling to uncouple each car then push it over the hump so gravity caries the car down to the track you want it to go. What a fun operating session that would be.
Ok, here is a photo. It is still in the design stage and constantly changing, But this is what I got so far.
I notice that the continuous run doesn't use very much of the track. You're using a LOT of track (and visual space) on return loops. I can't see offhand what the best thing to do would be, but I think a rerouting of the whole main may be in order. EDIT: Maybe a dogbone? That would give a double main, but how to hide both end loops on a layout this size? Just thinking out loud...
Triplex has a good idea! With a dogbone could have double along an 8 ft side. With that you could have a fold-down section beside the main. It could hold maybe 5 tracks or so that would be 5 or 6 ft long and then a small engine facility at the opposite end. Your yard lead could run along the outside of the main. I hope we're giving you helpful information! SantaFeDan
I think I saw something like what your talking about. The only problem is that I wanted to do some scenery such as a waterfall and river which would require mutable levels. Originally I was only going to have 2 levels, but after thinking about lowering the yard, well that just opened a whole world of possibilities like deep ravines with tunnels, streams, and other things just waiting to be discovered. I took a little break and took advantage of this beautiful Calif. weather and did some outside stuff, but when I came back in, I tried redrawing it. I've turned my yard into a reverse loop by adding 110" of track under my main level and connected it to a turnout before the ramp backup to the outside main line. I couldn't do better than a 2.5% grade. Her it is so far.
JohnnyB: I would encourage you to find a way to keep the grade under 2.5%; and if you could keep it to 2%, that would be even better. I think it would be possible to set up a curled dogbone or a loop to loop track plan with a yard at one end and a town with rail sidings at the other. Imagine you are standing at the bottom of one of the plans you have already drawn so the yard is on your left, the yard throat is at the front middle of the plan directly in front of you, and the yard lead extends off toward the right and turns to run to the back of the layout along the right side of the layout. The lowest level is at 0 inches and is a U-shaped piece of real estate about 6 to 8 inches wide (maybe a tad more on the left (yard) side). The left arm of the U starts in the back left corner, the base of the U is across the front of the layout, and the right arm of the U extends to the back right corner of the layout. The reversing loop for the lower level end of the plan is positioned so that its tear-drop shape is mostly contained on the left side of the layout with just the point of the tear-drop easing across the mid-line to tie in at the front of the layout. The Yard tracks curve around the reversing loop and end at the back left corner. The middle level isn't really level at all. It begins its rise from the lower level about 2 or 3 feet from the right edge and curves back toward the right rear corner inside of the yard lead (and any other buildings or sidings you'd like to include in the U-shaped lower level), and rises as it curves. The rising track curves back to the right rear corner, then turns to move left across the back of the layout while continuing its rise. It crosses the middle of the layout and starts curving away from the back of the layout to cross over the back part of the lower level reversing loop at about 2 inches elevation. The rising track bends inside the curve of the lower reversing loop so that you will have full access to the lower lever track for routine maintenance and any repairs needed. Scenery-wise, the rising track could be coming around a mountain about half way up the side and the yard could be at the base of the mountain. Some modelers leave enough room between the curves of the rising track and the lower reversing loop so their mountain side can slope upward at no more than a 45 degree angle....otherwise its hard to make the scenery look believable. If you leave enough room, you will be able to create a view block with trees that will increase the sense of separation between the lowest level (Yard tracks) and the rising track even more. The rising track reaches the top level at the front of the layout, about 3 feet from the left side of the layout and back about 1 foot from the front edge. The yard throat is down the mountainside from where the rising track meets the upper level at the turnout that forms the point and 2 sides of the upper level reversing loop. The upper level is level and is about 2.5 or 3 inches above the lower level. If there is access to both the front and back of the layout without moving the layout or ducking under anything, then you could put your upper level town on the back half of the plan. But, if there is only access from the front (bottom) of the layout, then it seems to work best when all turnouts for the upper reversing loop passing siding and any industrial/business sidings are positioned within 18 to 24 inches of the front edge of the layout. (This is a good practice, even if you have long arms.) Usually, sidings are positioned so operators can see between the cars to facilitate coupling and uncoupling cars. (This is another good practice, even when using magnetic uncouplers). Sidings work best when they are NOT positioned with a building between the siding and the operator. Use the buildings as view blocks to hide tracks on the far side of the layout. By carefully managing the height and positioning of the buildings, trains on tracks behind the buildings cannot be seen by a casual observer, but if the operator wants to monitor his train's progress, all he would have to do is lean forward a little. If you are comfortable with a higher Spaghetti Factor, you could make double tracks rising from the lower to upper level. If you prefer a lower Spaghetti Factor, then the single track option between two loops described above is available. If you position the upper level reversing loop inside the rising track instead of above it, construction and later maintenance will be much easier.
Dave, I'm a little slow and I'm still trying to decipher everything you have here, I wish I could see a rough sketch to help me visualize it a little better. You have brought up a couple points that I am not happy with in my latest drawing. One being the turnout in the back, my last layout had three in the back and that was a huge problem. Secondly as to the sidings being in full view, my last layout had a spur behind a ramp that was not visible and rendered it useless. I would have liked to continue the ramp or incline from the yard around the second level more to the front which would easily give me a 2% grade, but I had clearance problems crossing the yard exit in the rear under the main. I also thought of going around the inside of the main, but then there would be too much inaccessible track that might be a problem to clean or what ever. The whole layout will be movable so I can pull it out from the wall to clean. I did have to move the mains a little to make room in the back with out sacrificing my radius. That meant overhanging the corner of the main a little over the yard which I figured I would build bridge or something. I'm afraid of ending up with too small of a mainline and I'm also not comfortable with it being 48" wide or in this instance deep.
4x8's are tricky for that reason. There's another interesting thread about 4x8s in N scale from just a short time ago here. My suggestion is take a step back and think about what you want on your layout, then prioritize those items. I don't think they're all gonna work out on the space you have available. I think you're trying to overdo it a little and that's why you keep second-guessing yourself. Another thought: From your trackplan I conclude that your mainline reversing loop is to bring trains back to the yard. I agree with Dave that it is much better to do inside your mainline oval OR as a track from one side of the oval to another. Alternatively you can try to reposition the yard to allow trains to arrive from either direction - a good example of this is in the link above.
Thanks, I'm in no hurry. I'm taking my time and I'm kind of waiting for the new Atlas code 55 curved turnouts to come out to see if they might help. I keep thinking of someone I read about that built a huge expensive N scale layout that turned out to become a complete loss. I don't want that to happen to me. I already feel like I waisted my time on my last layout, because I was to much in a hurry.
I'm surprised no one has caught this yet: your reverse loops point in the same direction! IOW, if you go through one reverse loop, there is no way to go through the other reverse loop unless you back a train through it. I quickly drew your layout in a linear style to illustrate what I mean: I removed the curvy parts and greatly foreshortened the straight parts. As you can see, a train coming out of the left reverse loop would have to back through the right reverse loop to change it's direction. The simple solution is to flip the right reverse loop so it enters the mainline pointing left instead of right. Hope this helps. Darrell, quiet...for now
Whoa! That’s a big one. Thanks for pointing that out. It was going the other way, but then in a desperate moment of trying to lessen the grade, I flipped it. The funny thing is that I did briefly think of it checking it and got side tracked. Thanks again.:thumbs_up:
It'll work, as far as I can see, but it has the problem I pointed out before. The loop-to-loop run is about twice as long as the continuous run. If that fits how you plan to use the layout, go ahead... but be aware how you plan to use the layout.
I’m just not following you about the “loop-to-loop run” being long. I’m still learning track terms. Are you talking about the stretch of mainline between the two loops or in the loops?
