My only Shay experienced a driveshaft disconnection problem right out of the box and is right now on it's way to New Jersey. I was going to post here and see what you all thought I should do when I found it, but Fotheringill had just posted about his having the contact issue. While reading the replies, my question was answered. I emailed the dealer and they promptly gave me Atlas Customer service number. When I called, the person I needed to talk to was busy but he returned my call in a timely manner. Also an email I sent to Atlas was answered the next day by the man I had previously talked to. Customer Service is alive and well from where I stand! The dealer (well known here) was great! Atlas explained that they want feedback on their products, good or bad. How would they know of issues that need addressed unless they surface? It seems that some here may be ready to bash Atlas and label the Shay as a problematic dud. Compared to what? This locomotive is a ground breaking innovation in manufacturing and engineering and I look forward to seeing what lessons learned here will accomplish in future releases.
I have an Aloha Lumber #2 Shay. I ran it for about 30-45 minutes last week. I ran it on a club layout (2X4) with Kato Unitrack. It pulled 14 cars without any problems (level track/ NO inclines). Maybe I'm just lucky???
i think thats hilarious </font>[/QUOTE]My neighbor just throws them back... </font>[/QUOTE]What goes up, must come down. So, move aside real fast! With my luck, one would land on my head! Boxcab E50
I have three Shays and they all run extremely well at slow speeds. The mechanism is very delicate and has to be handled with care and run at very slow speeds. Stay cool and run steam....
I was running at all speeds up to 11 volts since there was no package warning. I wish there had been. Mr. Federal Express now has possession of my shay to be delivered at Hillside, NJ.
Are we still at five out of thirty? Anyone keeping score? I wonder if you could tell if therewas a "batch" difference. Like those from X supplier had bad mechanisms while those from Y supplier were okay? Also, how many of these things were made, anyway? Is that info not released by the manuf?
I have looked for Shay problems on the Atlas forum, and found one, which in fact was the same as mine. I posted my problem on the same thread, hoping it would generate some kind of response from the other forum members.... nothing!! and I clearly remember the pasteing that Model Power and others take continuously. I think it is more like you don't curse IN the church? my Shay has been returned to Atlas on 1/12. will let you know how long it takes to get it back. it was a contact problem - none on the right front truck. the other poster fixed his problem, I chickened outl.... Michael
While mine are undecs. and yet to arrive, I have talked with the folks in the LHS, and at least one member of the local Ntrak bunch about them. Out of ten or so that came in only one so far has been placed in the repair barn. That one was missing the tiny screws used to hold the bottom plate on the mechanism, although it still managed to run well on the test track at the LHS. One of the gentlemen who has a lot of experience with the Nn3 stuff noticed the body being loose upon removal from the test track. It was replaced with another, and the remaining stock examined with no others showing the missing screws. Really trying to stay off my soapbox about the grasshut farmed out productions and quality controls. On another note however, the real Shays were slow speed haulers, and any attempt to run them over 20-25 mile an hour resulted in damage to the running gear. On most top speed was at a stately 15 MPH and usually in the 5-7 MPH range. Thus the nice slow speed performance I have seen on the units has been right within prototype. Could Atlas have designed so well on the mechanism that they are behaving like the prototype? Or am I back to my grasshut production quality issues? On the issue of the brass version of this engine, it definetely has a history of poor performance. I remember when the first version came out, and equally glad I did not cough up the then high $$ for the unit, not to mention that one of the criticisms was also being out of scale in addition to poor performance. Now there are other Shays out there, except they are not in standard gauge but narrow gauge. Most of them are running on Z scale mechanisms and perform reasonably well and some can be regauged to to standard gauge. However you are looking at at least three times the price tag, unless you buy the kit, and do it yourself. There is one other offering of a Shay in standard gauge, however it does not begin to offer the working mechanism, or detail that Atlas offers. Sort of like comparing a rusted out old VW, running on three cylinders, to a brand new Beamer. Overall I think Atlas has done a fine job in taking the time to come out with a much needed product, and work out the issues that come with getting a reasonable working rendition of a complex drive system in such a small scale. The larger scale versions are running just fine out there to excellent reviews. Quality in the assembly process sounds like the issue. Back, down boy, get off that soapbox . Of course it may also come down to issuing a statement that this loco should not be run over a certain throttle setting and speed, just like the real one to one versions, to resolve some issues. Hopefully the few issues will be resolved and a three truck version will make its appearance. The bigger scales have moved on to releasing the other geared locos. The Climax and the Heisler, and they have a lttle less complex drive train. Still sitting here waiting for the undecs, and keeping an ear to the ground. Also awaiting the reports from the Ntrak guys on the long term continous running performance, at slow speeds, from them.
A few here have stated that it is a delicate mechanism to be likened to a fine Swiss watch. That may be true. The problem is that it is in contact with: 1. Hands other than those found attached to Swiss watchmakers. 2. Trackwork that may not be perfect causing a hiccup or derailment once in a while. 3. Other trains, especially those with slinky couplers, that may throw off the fine tuned balance. 4. Catastrophic happenings, which if were in 1:1 scale would have death and major destruction. The prototype may have been operated at only 5-10 MPH, but a model should be able to operate at most, if not all, speeds that other models generally are run. Think of the guy or gal who is just getting into the hobby, goes to a LHS or orders the shay on line for $140+ and probably climbing, brings it home and it does not operate for more than a few hours. A very negative opinion of the hobby, N scale, or both will be immediately formed. Taking an engine apart to fix it yourself? Many of our board members have the skill, experience, knowledge and patience to isolate a problem, know where to look and have the ability to fix it to their own satisfaction. I submit that those people, like Bob, Pete, Long Train and some others, are the exception and not the rule of those who enjoy this hobby. I, for one, possess none of those skills and know that it will be many years, if ever, before I even have the nerve to do anything other than change a coupler on a steam engine or oil a gear. A product should be geared to the enjoyment of the general public, not to the level of sophistication of the cream of the technical ability crop who participate in N scale and on these boards. As to the comments about the "other place"- I am aware there are those who are loyal to a particular board. Each serves a purpose for its members and its hosts. The other place is a proprietary site. A comment was made about bashing of MP steam engines at that site. I started such a thread there several months ago. MP knows it made an error with the virtual impossibility of installing traction tires on its products. Only four or five people on either board have been able to do it, so far. How many of us will be able to reattach pistons or whatever on the shay, not to improve it, but to make it operable? Atlas, so far, has not (which is its right as a private concern) released sales or production figures, even in relation of one scale to another. I believe we will never know what percentage of returns it will have on the shay. In short, I must state that I would never have purchased this product if I knew of the problems that have arisen, so far. I learned this lesson with the MP's, but ordered my shays last March and did not feel it was appropriate to cancel placed ordered and wait for reviews, first. The statement either by Atlas or those at the other place that the delay in release was caused by inability to take a 9 3/4" turn?? I cast a doubt on that statement. It looks like a typical diesel truck to me. If a MDC Consolidation or Mogul (both about the same size as the shay) but with no truck can take the turns perfectly, why can not the shay? I offer some conjecture that it might have been problems discovered relative to durability of the product and not its ability to stay on track. On the service issue. I sent mine back by Fed Ex yesterday. We will see how long it takes to reappear. I contacted Atlas service through its own button e-mail links. No response. I sent e-mail blindly to a site administrator at Atlas. No response until Mr. Shortman replied (coincidentally, time wise, with posts here by me about a lack of response) with a statement, in part, that Atlas never received my to its service department. Anyway, I have said enough on the topic.
I feel of the guys who have shays that were malfunctioning. I grin when the lack of negative comments about the shay on the Altas board is brought up and that there must be some politeness being shown to the host by the Board members. Being on the Atlas board for as long as I have I doubt if people there have suddenly become more accepting of faults!!!!!!. It may be that this shay is a rock solid offering with very little to complain about. Obviously the guys that did get a bad one see things a little differently then the rest of us. I think the fact that no one has really jumped on the faulty shay bandwagon, says something about this release. My advice is if you want one, buy one. There are more then a few stories floating around the forums about how great they are, and they are backed by the best manufacturer in the business. Again I feel for the guys who got lemons, but generally speaking I think this is a homerun release.
"One of these days" I'll buy my first N scale steam engine; but this and many other recent occurances leave me very hesitant. The design elements being used appear to be very hit or miss. Accross at least three manufacturers (not sure how many factories are involved), there seems to be persistent reports of problems with electrical pick-up, traction (weight) and reliability. It may just not be economically feasible to "get it right" in N scale. I found the post (another thread) about distributors having a "no return" policy to be very interesting. If I were a shop owner (thank God I'm not), I would cringe every time we run through this steam related cycle of a) wishing, b) excitement upon announcement, c) disappointment upon receipt and d) cleaning up the mess with customers and manufacturer. Contrast that to the experience of something like the CZ (everyone's happy!).
In reference to the ability to take or not take a certain radius is something that I can buy due to the difference between this truck and a diesel truck. That is the fact of a drive train being attached to the outside of said truck which must also flex and articulate through any turns. A problem the real loco had on occassion, and why the other competing geared locos were superior in tight turns due to centerline, or inside truck gear drive vs outside. Had this been a Heisler or Class B Climax offering it would have probably been out sooner. Aspen Models makes an N scale Class B Climax. http://www.aspenmodel.com/images/30055_g.jpg As the photo shows a lot easier mechanism to make and make work. Which is why my foray into building a geared loco was to choose the Class A Climax allowing me to use an existing diesel chassis and drive system. http://www.railimages.com/gallery/album05/aae I fully expect the problems to be resolved as they were, if any, in the other scales for the same loco. And the other guy that has a suscessful one happens to be Bachmann, although in a larger scale. Unfortunately there are folks who buy locos without thought to the layout they will run on. There are a number of locos out there that just won't run on the turns on a 3 X 6 layout, both steam and diesel. Unfortunately the manufacturers don't print that on the side of the box. And as I said earlier this is a loco that was meant to be run very slowly up and down the mining, quarry, or logging grades, or on the low speed mainlines of narrow gauge pikes and that is the market that has been growing out here and asking for this locomotive. I for one am buying mine for a specific purpose and to operate on a specific area of the layout at low speed. I have my F-3s, FAs, and 2-8-0s to operate on the mainlines at speed, and my 4-4-2 and 4-6-2 to scorch the rails with the varnish. When mine finally come in several things will happen. First is that they will go on the LHS test track before leaving with me and together with some of the knowledgable staff there they will be closely examined and run. When they arrive at the home road they will be thoroughly lubed, examined again for any loose screws, and then broke in on my test track at low speed and tested even further. Mine are probably going to be in the last run so it will be awhile yet before they arrive. If they get delayed some while Atlas tweaks a problem again so be it. [ 15. January 2005, 17:00: Message edited by: John Moore ]
Perhaps Atlas made a big mistake in offering a Shay in the first place, because if there are actually people out there who expect a Shay to operate at the same speed as other N scale locomotives, the physical impossibility of doing so in any scale from 1:1 down will inevitably lead to unhappy customers. Just like you can't expect to operate your automobile with the tachometer constantly "redlined", you cannot operate a Shay at over crawl speed consistently without damage to the drive train. When I entered the hobby, you could not purchase anything ready to run. Most hobbyists had enough knowledge of the real thing to have the correct tools and know each models' applications. I truly find the expectation that a Shay be capable of operating at the same speed as any other locomotive truly remarkable. It is analogous to expecting a helicopter to fly at Mach 1!
Here's a thought though. If Atlas wanted the shay to not be run over a certain speed due to the possibility of failure, why not design it that way and regulate the speed? I had been looking forward to this for some time, but stopped myself when it came time to put up. One reason was that I had spent too much on other things recently. The other reason was that after watching it run, I got scared of the tiny drive train and chickened out. It just looked so fragile, I knew I'd break it. I get a little weird around tiny things I can break by breathing on them wrong. Subsequently, I did end up spending the "shay money" anyhow. I bought one each of the MDC 2-6-0 and 2-8-0's. I figure I'm ahead there. Actually the two of them cost less than the shay.
I heard a few comments on the other board, where the Shay was run at full throttle. It never ceases to amaze me how many folks want to run these loco's like slot cars. Just looking at the delicate mechanism, one has to realize that this loco must be run at extremely slow speeds. After taking the three Shays apart to install decoders, I realized the fine line of balance that Atlas had to go through to make this loco in N scale. I also realize after visiting the insides of this loco why they scrapped a Shay with a decoder. Atlas uses a low priced generic decoder in all it's loco's.There is no way that a decoder that Atlas uses in all their diesels could fit in this loco. I was very surprised that I wa able to fit a Lenz 521W in the Shay. It took some manipulation and some judicious trimming of the cab and oil bunker, but it can be done. The shell refit was a tight squeeze due to the extra wiring near the leds that a decoder requires for bi-directional lighting. Two members of the other forum wanted me to open up the shells so that they could see the installation. Unfortunately, the tight fit wouldn't allow me to do so. I posted the decoder installation only on Trainboard so that those who wanted my explanation and after pictures could see what I did. I also thought that the installation of a decoder post of the Shay would be more appreciated on this forum. Mark: Regarding your comments about the MP loco's. I was one of those who was very upset with the performance of the MP. When the traction tires first came out, the brass at MP offered three sets "gratis". When I found out what I had to to do to install them, I politely refused the offer. On the other board , I was "roasted" continually for my opinion which I was entitled to. Months later I decided to give the MP loco another try. I bought a 2-8-2 and it ran well. Since then I purchased seven more MP loco's. To run these guys, that must be run for 20+ hours a piece to see improved performance. The running qualities get better with more mileage. I've also installed ten sets of traction tires on the MP's I have, thanks to LongTrains and UPRichie1950's explanations. They aren't easy to do at all, but I must say that all the MP's run extremely well with the tires. With all new steam loco's in N scale there will be problems. The Atlas Shay is no exception and I feel badly for the folks who had major problems with the loco. This loco was extremely well received and most places don't have a Shay for sale in their inventory. Looking forward, Atlas will refine the loco to prevent recurring problems with a second run , if there is a second run. However, the majority of folks in N scale must realize that this loco is like no other that has been made in N scale. When one commits to N scale steam, there are to be problems. I spent over one hour this morning looking for a blown side rod pin on 100 feet of scenicked mainline track. I finally found the pin after using a powerful flashlight. Then I spent another half hour untangling the siderods where the pin blew out. Maintenance problems will always occur with N scale steamers. That is the nature of the beast. It's also important to realize that first runs of steamers in N scale usually have flaws and one must consider that if you pre-order a loco. In all all, it's a great time to be in N scale steam despite all the problems, real or imagined and the Atlas Two truck Shay is a wonderful example of that. Stay cool and run steam.... [ 15. January 2005, 20:28: Message edited by: Powersteamguy1790 ]
Bob, Excellent post and what you have written makes a lot of sense, the fact I model modern railroads meant I was never going to purchase a shay although I was tempted to build a logging layout for a while. If speed is the issue which it seems to be I wonder if Atlas could have limited the speed of the shay by installing a limiting resistor although this could still be a problem with different throttles and DCC. No doubt Atlas will come up with a fix but all in all they should be supported for doing this model, one which I know a lot of steam guys have been waiting for.
John and Bob- You are exactly the guys who have the knowledge and ability to modify and fix. A point that was brought up by both of you is that the Atlas shay was not meant to be run at anything over a crawl. I now understand that. Why did Atlas not put that warning in a prominent place, either in advertising or on the box? Perhaps, it felt sales would be limited if it did? Bob- You know that I ask, read, digest and put to use information before me in the best way that I mentally and physically can. I followed the posts here and 'there" about break in periods and techniques on steam engines. I was even giving nightly reports on improvements in pulling abilities up my grade. Nobody could or should try to read what is in someone's mind or anticipate an individual's future actions. But Atlas sure as heck should have anticipated this type of problem of its purchasing public.
