My Layout My current layout is on a banquet table with 2 inches of foam that I use to test and basically experiment with DCC signals etc. I have now reached the point where I want to take the next step. Some of you may have seen some of the previous plans I have attempted to finalize over the past year or so. Over the past year I have been accumulating items to place on the layout, structures track etc, while trying to come up with a plan I have reached a stage with the planning of my layout where I am totally frustrated. I have finally worked out the area that I can work in, however I cannot seem to come up with a benchwork plan or layout plan that does not look like IMHO a bowl of spaghetti. Attached are three links, showing the layout area, which is roughly 8ft by 17 ft with 3 ft to the right required for access to a utility room. The layout grid in the pictures is red =1ft, grey is 6” The brown lines are walls and the area to the front is open, but I only have about 3 to 5 ft before I reach the pool table area. The first bench layout I came up with has three peninsulas; I just do not seem to be able to make this work out. The second bench layout seems to work out. It is a J with a gate at one end. On this one I have included an initial layout plan, I just am not happy with this. Here is a 3D version So I need some help, some ideas and thoughts I am after the following; 1) Continuous Running – Got to keep the young ones happy 2) A yard with a roundhouse and turntable, I have 35 engines a mixture of steam and diesel and about two hundred rolling stock, boxcars, reefers, gondolas, flatcars, graincars, intermodal, ore cars and of course passenger 3) Areas for operations and switching with industry and the like 4) I have some structures – Roundhouse, turntable, yard towers, furniture factory, freight house, steel rolling mill, coal tower, coal loading facility, machine shop, blast furnace. water towers, misc yard buildings 5) I realize the Blast Furnace and Rolling mill may be casualties due to the real estate required on the layout 6) I would like to incorporate Kato Double crossover in the layout. 7) I would like to concentrate on intermodal, ore, light passenger service with some freight and mixed unit trains Track – Specifications Track – Kato Unitrack with some flextrack in the yard Track Radius 14 to 15 inch main line and 11 to 12 inch on branch’s Turnouts # 6 mainline # 4 Yards I have purchased a large quantity of Kato straight and curved track with 36 # 6 turnouts 9 #4, 2 double switchovers and a number of single and double track bridges. Electrical Digitrax empire and chief, all locos are DCC equipped, DS 64 and 52 for turnouts digitrax signal system. I have most of the material to get going, I am just lacking the insight to come up with a robust plan that would work. - IMHO that I have not attained yet.
This is just a first impression but it seems to me you have a lot of yard and no industries to serve and no where to go. That's an exaggeration, but I am not concerned with the spaghetti bowl effect as much as the fact that besides running trains around, which is well taken care of, you don't seem to have places to take the trains and do much. You have a siding here and there. In addition the yard area is huge compared to the rest of your plan. It looks like something that would have two-three times the main line to go with it. You can make up long trains but, again, where do they go except around and around? So for starters if it were me I'd be thinking about destinations: where do your trains go and why? Block some areas in on your plan and create reasons to go there: an industry, an interchange, a town with a number of industries, a port facility, etc. Second, I'd then be thinking about moving some of the 'weight' of the track to these destination areas. Unless you have to keep all 200 cars on the tracks at all time, I'd probably be thinking of about half the yard facilities you have. That might allow you space to widen the top of the layout and create destinations rather than just loops. Maybe even another small yard on the opposite side of the layout. That's my first impression.
Owen, Looking over your concepts I believe the plan without the dunkunder has potential. From personal experience I can say duckunders are a big pain in the "head" even with padding! I try to avoid them now in layout planning. I've provided a very simplistic idea for your first bench layout. The plan envisioned would have a staging level beneath the main (visual) portion of the layout. The tracks from the staging level would gain elevation along the run of the main as they enter the sceniced portion of the layout. Scenic dividers would help to break up the scenes and provide distinct areas on the layout aiding in the illusion of trains actually travelling somewhere. The small scenes created around the layout could be utilized to model areas you enjoy even if they are on opposite sides of the country by providing a visual break between them. These scenes could be as simple as fields with crops or made into distinct switching areas like Mark is referring to. Where the grades up and down to enter/exit staging begin would have to be determined by the amount of vertical space you'd like to have between levels. Just a little something to get your imagination going.
Boy, do I know that feeling! Owen, don't underestimate your abilities. Do you have a copy of John Armstrong's book about modeling for realistic operations? Also The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design. http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html In re: the remarks above about to much yard and no place to go, please consider the following. The yard is a place where trains can be assembled and be sent to various destinations. The trains really don't have to go some place far away, you just need to create the illusion that they do. For instance, you could provide a return loop in your hidden staging yard that could return a train to it's originating place after an ample amount of time has passed. This works out very well for passenger service, because the prototype railroad often ran the same consist in both directions, while changing only the train number. Freight service for long haul trains can be performed in a similar fashion. The yard also provides a place where tired men and equipment can go to rest while they are rejuvinated after a long journey. Local freights need only travel a few feet before ariving at a place where cars can be picked up or set out. What is needed here is enough variety in naming your industries so that you can pretend that all the cars you have accumulated really will be put to use in a productive manner. I suspect that you have a lot more information about your empire than the drawings you posted reveal. Don't panic! reread the books I mentioned above and reasure yourself that your plan will actually meet your needs, and if it fails the test, change it. Thats what plans are for. Jerry
Back On Track Mark, Arrow and GM, thank you for the input. Mark right on too much track nowhere to go. Arrow you showed me an idea I never thought of. GM that link on the ten commandments of yards while short helped alot, and yes I did read it along with Armstrongs book. Over the past 5 days I have poured over the information in those books and articles along with your posts. I did not want to leave this much longer so I wanted to thank you and show what I have accomplished so far. Before I go further perhaps some last thoughts from you all. Arrow I really appreciated the layout design. I am not a great believer in Hidden staging which is evident the result I came up with If I am going to buy track I guess I want to see it. I still have some spurs and industry sidings to place. Before I go further perhaps some last thoughts from you all. Thanks again
Arrow: Nice to see you posting your lovely layouts in the Layout Design Forum, again. We missed you! Owen: I seem to remember this room arrangement from earlier this spring…welcome back to you, too. You almost have two complete loops, one containing the major central yard and one with the single track that runs from the coal mine to the paper mill. Would you be interested in completing that 2nd loop? If so, you would have the option of having 2 trains run in the opposite or the same direction simultaneously, or one train looping twice around the layout before going over the same track again. Operationally, you could have 2 separate RRs that interchange, or a main loop and a branch line loop of the same or related RRs. To complete the inside loop, add a track that runs to the right (clockwise) from the 2nd track from the wall above/behind the paper mill, down along the right side edge of the right side peninsula, past the town, loop around the end of the peninsula inside the other loop (you'd probably need to shift them slightly to center on the 36" peninsula instead of a little to one side of it), then rise back up toward the top of the layout, bend to the left around the end of that aisle, and tie into the 3rd track from the back wall at a point 13 or 14 feet from the left wall and about 8 feet from the bottom/front edge of the layout (i.e., 1 foot from the top/back wall). Those two tracks just above the printed words "paper mill", could be used as stub ended paper mill tracks from the inside loop served off of the yard/town tracks at the right side of the peninsula. To reduce the number of s-curves through the turnouts at the right side of the big yard, you may want to flip the turnouts so they are all right handed and enter the yard ladder tracks from the 2nd track instead of as they presently enter from the back track. This will definitely shorten your yard tracks but will increase reliability a lot. You could probably recoup some of the yard capacity by shifting the turntable back a little and starting the yard ladder between the front edge of the layout and where the turntable is presently located. If you do start here, you'll probably want to lengthen the yard lead/drill track by moving the turnout from the main to the yard farther back toward the inside end of the aisle. You presently have the left side yard coming off of the outside loop. If you had it coming off the inside loop, you could put greater mainline distance between your two yards. Additionally, it would move the turnouts an inch or two closer to the aisle, always a help. I like having two ended yards, but shifting to the inside loop and still keeping the inside loop curling tightly around the coal mine would make for a very short yard. If you are willing to eliminate the double track option along the left side of the outside loop (or reduce the width of the left side aisle by 4 to 6 inches), then you could separate the two tracks a little bit and have the inside loop circle all the way down to the front edge of the left side of the layout and loop back up to connect into the original track position about where the crossover is positioned by the coal mine. Enlarging the inside loop in this way would let you start your small yard ladder on the back wall between the factory and the coal mine and you could position the entire left yard inside the inner loop. If the coal mine remains between the two loops, you may be able to hide the outside loop behind low, easily removable view blocks. Two tracks near the back of my shelf: the first, without the view block and the second, with the view block in place. If the tracks at the back of the layout are slightly higher than those in the middle, and middle tracks are slightly higher than front tracks, then the relative closeness of the back, middle and front tracks at the end of the left side aisle will not be too much of an issue. Using elevation to create a visual separation will eliminate that double crossover, though.
Dave Some good ideas there. I just printed out your suggestions and will digest them while looking at the layout. I will get back. Thank You for the ideas and sugestions.
This looks much more interesting operationally. You have some well defined locations and various routings to get to each which will keep you from feeling you are just going round and round. You have two yards, so have two places to originate or terminate trains. Much more interesting. Dave has some good thoughts. I particularly like the idea of having a complete second loop and using it as a totally different railroad. With some planning you could introduce some nice interchange traffic. I'd have both railroads service the paper plant, perhaps, which did occur in prototype operations (sometimes with shared trackage). Of course, as it is you just have some additional routing possibilities. A couple of things I noticed: First, you don't have access to either yard from the outer track with any real ease. I don't quite see how you plan to enter and exit the yard from the outer track in either yard. Second, the left yard is small. I'd consider single ending some of the tracks and double ending just one arrival/departure or make-up/break-up track. Third, you have four tracks headed straight into the round table. Of course, only one can go straight in from any one direction, so unless you don't intend to use these tracks to actually access the round table, you'll need to change their arrangement. You might not have room to get four tracks going in once you do this. I'd suggest some extra development of the paper mill and coal mining areas. You could have two or three spurs into the paper mill as well as a storage track. A coal mine can actually use a small yard and a couple of tracks to a breaker or flood loader. Overall to me this plan seems a huge improvement over the last plan. You have a few big industries that will generate a lot of traffic, two yards, and plenty of running options. Very nice work.
I like the plan. My first thoughts: the small yard at the left seems like it will have too many short tracks, maybe you can make some of them stub ended to gain more storage. The double cross over just below where it says coal mining. It would be very cool to have those tracks cross over each other mimicing a big junction. Maybe have them both be double tracked as they cross so you that real feeling of big railroading. If you leave space for later inside those loops you may decide you can add some industries here and there for more action with your local freights. I would be tempted to add some reverse loop cross overs for turning those long trains. Overall, the plan looks really nice. BTW what scale is this?
Owen: Another plan to consider. Edit Doh! It would probably be a good idea to include the track plan I'm talking about!:embarassed: Double loop: INner and OUTer loops should be wired separately to allow independent electrical blocks (unless you have DCC). Designed for Point to Point operations or continuous running. Pt to Pt = A Yard, past the interchange, Outer loop past steel mill(?) at B, behind E Yard while hidden, take crossover from OUTer to INner loop, Factory C, INner loop side of Interchange, Town D, E Yard. Staging would let you run a train counterclockwise to A or take the crossover near Factory C and go to E (but I'd recommend getting to E by the longer loop all the way around the outer loop instead of taking the crossover immediately). Trains can only access the staging directly if going clockwise, otherwise they must back into staging. 1. The yard at A may need to be curved in a little more to give you better access to the E yard lead or the corner behind Factory C. 2. Do you want staging for operations? If so, this is one possible place to squeeze staging tracks in. 3. The double crossover on the lower left is not the traditional arrangement...I don't think the traditional arrangement will fit here. 4. Track arrangement alternative left side of A Yard would give longer tracks but sometimes turnouts on curves are not as reliable. 5. Interchange to the right of A yard. 6. Squiggly lines represent view blocks (which could be buildings or trees or hills). 7. Access to turntable from the right A Yard lead allows you to use the 4th yard track for classifying cars instead of as a run around. 8. Extra foot on lower left benchwork could possibly hold a small industry. 9. Couldn't fit the coal tipple in the upper left corner, so I moved it lower.
Thanks again guys. Dave continuing to look over your ideas. Geeky yes the scale is "N" - What Else LOL
Owen, The aisle between the paper mill and the roundhouse, as shown in the post #5 plan seems to be on the small side! Is it possible to use the white space along the right side of the table for track? If so, perhaps you could shift all of the track on that table to the right and use the space for the aisle. Jerry
Jerry, Owen: I wondered about that, too, as I was working on my version of the track plan...but chose to leave it about the same and take the 6 inches of blank space on the right side peninsula to make the far right aisle 18 inches instead of just 12" deep. As I recall from this spring, wasn't there a wall just off the edge of the image? For operations involving only 1 person in an aisle at a time, the width has to accommodate a large person's hips (if benchwork is at that level) or arms and shoulders (for the higher level benchwork) so the operator can turn around without scraping skin off on the fascia boards (and can turn around without being too much of a threat to the layout). The left hand aisle needs to be as wide as possible, because there will always be two operators repeatedly passing each other in that area, if more than one person is running trains.
GM, PPUINN, Geeky and Mark Thanks again for your continuing support, I too came to the conclusion earlier today that the left peninsula was going to be an issue, I was not crazy about those four tracks coming down in the corner. So the left peninsula is gone, the added track length did not really add anything to operations "Dither and Druthers". In it's place I will plan on placing my workbench which is on casters, I may even put a six foot staging and programing area attached to the workbench. Still thinking that one thru. Since I am trying to use up as much of the Kato Unitrack as I have I am really trying to limit the layout to that type of track. So below you will see todays planning results, I am still contemplating the removal or moving of the Main back track in Victorville. I have left the yard as is in Andys Junction for now. I want to set this track up on the test Layout before I decide if that will be the final for that. I think I have accomplished both an inside and outside loop with several locations where interchange can occur. The yard in Victorville is now basically a stub yard. Edit: The bench work lowest height is 43", with 2" of foam as the base we are at 45". Add to that any planned elevation somewhere between 45" and 49" as a final height. This is a limitation I have to work within to keep the better half a happy camper. Your comments and suggestions as always are appreciated. Larger Size Here Layout in Railimages
Would you consider eliminating the double track main from Victorville to Andy's Junction (the short section along the lower and left sections of the layout? Then run point to point between these, the long way around. Leave that interesting inner loop the connects with the top of the ladder in Victorville so you could still run trains around and around. You'd gain some room for that inner loop where the mainline went and you could perhaps add a couple of small industries or just some greater separation between sections of the loop. You might also then run a single track from the lower end of the Victorville yard over to the right corner of the layout board to make a spur or two for a Victorville industry (where the mainline you now have heads to the right from the yard yet ending before it turns back up toward the 'top' of the layout). Or that might be a good spot for a stub end siding or two simulating an interchange point with another railroad. It's right along the aisle so is in a good place for fiddlin. If you can put in a couple of spurs for each industry you'll have more places to put some of those 200 cars of yours. Your sidings seem to be a bit short for all that rolling stock. Coming out of Andy's Junction to the right I'd double track all the way to Victorville if possible, especially if you go point-to-point as I suggested. You're almost there already. You might save a couple of switches by eliminating a couple of those now cut-off tracks leading to the turn table. They could be put to good use feeding an industry. Good plan. Nice integration of a number of ideas and suggestions.
Owen: Take a look at this one! I tried to keep the signature features from the previous plans, but had to drop quite a few. 1. Victorville became an interchange with a couple sidings but no yard. It is now where the branch line ties in to the main line. 2. I eliminated the double track around the back portion of the layout to give me some more space. By making long leads on either side of Andy's Junction, the semblance of double track is present but really it's just the leads. The tracks in either direction at Victorville Interchange are also deceptive...more leads, not a genuine double track main. The single tracks will not be visible from the usual operator position, but because they'll be hidden by trees or buildings on hills that serve as view blocks, they'll still be easily accessible for maintenance 3. I added some elevation but it would still be possible to build it without the differences in height, if you wish. 4. There is provision for continuous running, but only on the main line, not on the branch which runs from the interchange to the coal mine. 5. There are 2 yards at Andy's Junction (which isn't really designed as a junction, but could be if you wanted to designate a track or two). One yard I envisioned as the source for cars going west and the other as the source for eastbound traffic. Trains would be built on the arrival/departure track and locos would come from the turntable/engine facilities to the ready track for coal, water, sand, etc, then pull to the appropriate end of their train. 6. Trains departing Andy's Jct would go east or west, but after disappearing onto the single track, would emerge on the main line that PASSES Victorville Interchange, would disappear back onto the single track, would emerge on the mainline that PASSES Andy's Jct, would disappear yet again on the single track, but would emerge on the siding between the main and the interchange track. Cars could be set out and picked up as needed on the interchange track and the train would then disappear onto single track, emerge on the main to bypass Andy’s Jct, disappear onto single, then bypass Victorville on the main, disappear to single and emerge on the track to enter Andy’s Jct arrival/departure track. 7. When breaking down new arrivals, cars could be separated to eastbound, westbound, and branch line bound. This would change the combination of cars in every train. 8. Branch line traffic leaves Andy’s Jct, proceeds to Victorville as the other mainline trains did, but instead of taking the siding between the main and the interchange track, it would take the track closest to the aisle and would switch the interchange cars, the cars in Victorville industries, and the cars brought from Andy’s Jct; then would go up the branch line to the coal mine, serving trailing point industries on the way up and back down. Although it doesn’t show too clearly, there is supposed to be provision for a run around at the coal mine. The run around track will probably need to be a little longer than shown on the plan, and the lead to the turntable will have to be available even when one side of the run around is filled with cars. 9. I had considered having the coal mine or branch line turntable located on the outside of the main line track(s) and toward the back of Rosedale…accessed by an overpass that helps to hide the main line as the main disappears around that tight curve into hidden single track. I opted not, because it would put a big crimp in siding and building options at Rosedale; but, if Rosedale spots are a lower priority, then go for it. If you opt to extend the branch line to the back of Rosedale, then, I think the coal mine should be there, not the turntable, because you’ll be spending more time at the coal mine, and putting it at Rosedale frees up the right aisle a little better than having it inside the loop of the main. 10. I’m a little worried about the other plans because the left aisle kept getting encroached upon and the reach from the aisle to the corner behind Factory C was getting to be close to 5 feet…WAY too long a reach. Even on my version 2 plan, it is still going to be about a 3 foot reach…so you may not want to put that siding/factory spot on the outside of the main line behind Factory C. 11. The erasures have almost obscured it, but in the upper left hand corner, the branch line really does connect into the track from the interchange to provide a run around for the factories at Victorville. 12. Depending on the height of everything in the engine facility at Andy’s Jct, you may want to have a track that enters one end of a shop at the edge of the layout and exits the other end on the test track for your workbench…you could model a functional RIP track or loco shed where repairs really do get made. 13. You may want to add a caboose track between the east and west bound yards. 14. The squiggly lines represent view blocks, and could be trees or hills, or buildings.
Less and Less Frustrated Dave Thank you for taking the time to do both those drawings. I can tell you one thing, I sure am learning a lot about yards, layout design, CAD program and what I can actually accomplish with KATO unitrack. I have gone as far as I can for tonight, so I will post a quick screen shot of what I have done so far. I think the majority of the elements you suggested are there. I sure now understand the need for a yard lead and an arrival and departure track and although my previouse version where "Nice Drawings", once I saw your latest version I could see what I missed from an operations viewpoint. I did create a reverse loop in Muriel Hill, since this was as you suggested to be at an elevation of 2", I just create the industry tracks above the lower track, I think that will work. I stlii have work to do between Victorville and Rosedale, although I doubt I will get more than one more Interchange track in. I could not accomplish that wye, so I came up with an alternative that does not seem to change operations to much unless I missed something. I also placed 3 double crossovers in Andys Junction between the lead and the ARV/DEP tracks, this seemed to alloow me to accomplish the number of sidings, and end up with a feel of what I think you intended. I am not crazy about the Kob I did on the Westbound Classification Yard, so I will need to work on that. Again thanks any further comments would be appreciated Anyway here is the latest Version 9 Large Size Version 9 Andys Junction Detail 1 Version 9 Andys Junction Detail 2
Your main yard with roundhouse just looks like it will be awesome. I can't wait to see all that track in place with cars sitting in it. Your inner one track oval offers lots of chances for switching. I would be tempted to squeeze in more industrial tracks. Even just short stubby spurs with space for only 1 or 2 cars for some old warehouse or freight transfer building. If you've ever seen pictures of kansas cities bottoms area you'd know what I mean.
I'm curious...you have track from several turnouts that appears to swing wide, then bend back in to run parallel to the straight track after the turnout. Why is that? Is there a limitation on the size/type of curves available after a Kato turnout? It seems like some of the wide swings might magnify the potential S-curve effects through the turnouts when they are thrown for the curved track. If you are putting a short piece of straight track in, you may just want to keep wider track centers instead of swinging back closer to the other track with another potential S-curve. Since you will generally be pulling trains on or off of the main through the turnouts with the wide turns (instead of pushing them through the turnout S-curve), you may not need to worry too much about it. I suspect you have already purchased some of those Unitrack double crossovers and want to include them somewhere on the layout:teeth: , but in the middle of the yard may not contribute to reliable track performance (too many S-curves as you push and pull cars on the various yard tracks). Perhaps you could enter your western yard with one turnout that leads off the Andy's Jct yard lead (drill track), a second turnout leading to all of the eastern yard tracks, a third that leads to the engine facilities/turntable, and a fourth that leads to the caboose track (probably between the turnouts to the east and west yards. Make the yard lead long enough that you could pull an entire train off of the arrival track and drill it straight into the eastern and western classification yards and the caboose track (and interchange track(s)?) without ever going onto the main line. (Note: the classification tracks should be at least as long as the longest train you plan to build on the departure track) With some careful planning, you might be able to set up the yard with hardly ANY S-curves through turnouts (not prototypical, but probably more reliable). Look at my drawing. I was hoping you could fit in a track for coal, water, fuel, sand etc that is long enough for at least one loco, and that provides access to either end of the departure track with a minimum of switchbacks; but, with the plan as I drew it, you'd still need 2 switchback moves if you're traveling counter-clockwise, but only 1 if clockwise. Under ideal circumstances, there will be at least 5 classification tracks in the east yard and provisions for at least 3 trains in the west yard. (I'm figuring two mainline trains and a branchline train going counter-clockwise from the east yard, 2 mainline trains and a branchline train going clockwise from the west yard, and 2 additional tracks in the east yard that can be used for storage or for sorting cars as part of making up trains.) You made a comment about not liking the west yard, but I like the way you set it up. I'm still hoping you'll consider the Victorville interchange and industries on the upper left side of the layout. As far as the loop on the right end of the branchline... I had avoided that because I couldn't think of a decent way to hide the lower level track yet still leave easy access to the track for cleaning or repair. Plus, you can't put any tracks inside that loop because they would permanently hide the lower track. nolease, don't even think about doing that...maintenance under such permanent tracks will be a nightmare!) A single track overpass could give you access to a turntable pressed as far back into the upper right-hand corner as you can put it; but, as I said before, I think that will make Rosedale too crowded. A turntable at the end of a branchline, especially one with a maximum of only 4 or 5 industries, would not have to have too many buildings...just a very short piece of track to the turntable from the turnout...because all it would be used for is to turn the loco so it can return to the interchange track and then on to Andy's Jct by going clockwise or counterclockwise.
