Thanks for those thoughts Geeky and Dave. I thought about gentle curves but there is no point when you're looking sideways at the track instead of along it. I want the two yards to be industrial areas with all my rolling stock in view, either at industries or staged. So the "wall" trackage is just for a good run, partial viewing and some vertical interest. I'll give that loads in/empties out some thought too Dave but might save that for a later date. The end loops will be hidden - that's a given. I like the idea of the train going "off scene" and then re-appearing. I haven't made up my mind whether the method will be scenery or an overpass or what just yet. I'm in favour of low hills, trees etc too. I like long(ish) trains and long runs with some switching for interest. I've modified the plan again - version 5 attached to include that 4th track on the north side of North Yard. I'm very happy with it thanks to your suggestions. I'll also be putting building flats between the "wall" track and north yard so that the northern track has a large industry to service and to disguise the "wall' track. I don't want the layout to get too cluttered though. You can see by the sort of buildings I've placed on this latest plan what I have already. I'm happy to back into the industries at "C". I can always add more sidings/industries if it isn't too cluttered in practice. Hard to be sure on paper. I'm not worried about caboose or MOW parking - I've got just enough cabeese but a few extra engines and just need a service area to park them when not in use. I don't have an MOW stuff. Era is diesel up to 1980(ish) but it's freelance.....in the broadest sense. Road names are UP, SP, Rio Grande and BN. I'm selling my UP passenger equipment so I'll be running freight only. Reverse loop(s) will only be entertained in the far distant future, if I can't live without it - can be incorporated by a placing a crossover on any of the "wall" straights. I'll be interested to see your other ideas for engine maitenance areas. Thanks guys, John
the plan looks really good. If you can't do slight curvatures. Another trick is to not have all your track completely parallel. You could take the north yard and have that bottom leg run at a slight angle away from the othe mains. Not much but just a tiny angle, and then push out that curve at the bottom. Based on your drawing this may be possible.
:angry: :angry: :angry: ARRRGH!!!! I just lost a LONG message I was composing because "the server was not found"! Well...that ought to teach me to compose in Word and Cut/Paste to TB. I'll try again tomorrow,John... I have some more ideas for the engine facilities, but I really liked your new version of South Yard Industries.
John: I’ve been thinking about the engine facilities and would like to propose another change: Consider exchanging the locations of the North Yard and South Yard engine facilities--relocate the North Yard engine facility to B and move the South Yard engine facility to A. Instead of having the South Yard E.F. extend straight to the left side of the layout off of Track 5, use a right hand turnout facing the other direction. It would be located very close to where the present turnout is located, and the curved portion of the turnout would connect to the straight part of Track 5 while the straight part of the turnout would point toward A. A second right hand turnout would yield 2 engine service tracks that paralleled and were fairly close to the South Yard tracks. The North Yard E.F. would begin with a turnout at the left end of the North yard that would, like with the South Yard engine tracks, allow trains to move through the straight rails of the turnout into the engine facility. The second turnout could be connected to either the curved or straight portion of the turnout, depending on space available. The tracks would extend to/through B. The 2 service tracks would nestle along (and close to) the front of North Yard. It would be possible to scenic the 2 areas in a way that subtly separates the North Yard engine tracks from the South yard classification tracks, perhaps by some fuel tanks or facility buildings set in front of the North Yard engine facility tracks (but positioned so the tanks do NOT prevent seeing the North yard E.F. turnouts and throwing ground throws to the North yard, or seeing the turnout points and working the ground throw for the Area C Industries Lead. If you move the North Yard right hand crossover on the back Track 4, closer to the turnout going to the Area C industries, then Track 4 will be longer, and you will be able to access Area C by pushing cars from either Track 4 or Track 3. Another option is to put a right hand crossover from North Yard Track 2 to Trk 1 just around the curve from the label “North Yard”. This way, cars on the left half of track 1 and Trk 2 could be pushed/pulled to the industries on the right end of North Yard. I really like how you have set up the South Yard Industries!! It was clever to have the TOFC track come straight off the back track…light-weight flat cars (and the modern long container cars) are notoriously unreliable through the S-curves of turnouts. I have set up all of my long container cars as loads only, so I can keep extra weight hidden in the containers at all times to improve reliable operation. If you plan to spot long container cars on the track by the TOFC building, you may want to consider using a #8 turnout to that track instead of a #6. Regardless, putting that extra length of straight track before curving to run parallel with the other track was a good idea. Positioning the South Yard crossover for Tracks 4 and 5 between the turnouts to the industrial sidings (instead of all the way to the right of the yard tracks) added an extra 2 cars to the TOFC capacity. I see you lengthened a siding in the North Yard, too, with the same judicious placement of a crossover. Nice Work!!
Thanks again for the comments and ideas guys. I'll have a fiddle with the plan arrangement to see what I can squeaze out of it by putting the yard on a bit of an angle Geeky. Dave, I don't think I follow what you mean about the engine facilities but I've tried a change based on your last posting. See the attached plan (overall 6) and see if I got it right. However, I'm afraid I don't see what gains have been made by doing that. I couldn't run off the left end of North Yard to "B" area because there isn't enough room. I'm using Peco track/turnouts so no ground throws. I take your point about the crossovers but I'm happy with the crossover on tracks 4/3 at the 5'6" point because it allows an extra train to be staged on track 3 down from that point. That way I can have a train staged on each of tracks 4, 3 and 2 but have a another train by running right to left through say on 3 and crossing over to 4 and continue to the yard exit. Options for other additional cross overs can be added later after I've operated it a bit. I've also attached a single level, double track version of the plan for comparison/comments. The yards are on the inner loop and track 4 of the yards is for through traffic. There's still plenty of staging available. I can see the value of some extra crossovers from outer to inner but the ones at the bottom and left side of the plan would do for now - I think. There are some better possibilities for scenery on the 8' leg between the inner and outer loops which aren't available on the single track version. I like the idea of semi-linking the engine service areas to give the impression of a big industrial area in that end (west) of the yards. Being double track it also allows one train to run continuously while switching is happening or just let two trains run. The layout also takes up a fraction less floor space.....not that it's necessary. The other thing that I've been thinking about is, do I really "need" two yards or could I just have say North Yard and a passing/staging siding instead of South Yard (or vice versa) and more scenery possibilities? Decisions, decisions. I've put de-construction of the old 8x4 layout on hold for the moment while I keep thinking this through. Must not rush in and regret at my leisure. Cheers, John
I think the original plan with the long mainline and two yards seems more interesting to me. Your compressed plan seems almost cluttery. That huge mainline run with the return loops is really nice for running long trains. Tossing out some other ideas here: Have both yards share an engine facility, by putting the joint facility on the lower loop where the hidden track is right now and use the current engine areas as industry tracks. you could have a crossing from the main yard to the engine facilty and even consider using a Atlas turntable in the facility. Put your scenic towns over the corner curves on removable panels.
John: You did catch what I had posted, but I had forgotten your earlier post about not having enough room to put the turnouts where I'd suggested... go with the arrangement you like the best. Ha!...I hadn't thought of that.:embarassed: Very good point. Interesting alternative.
I apologize for jumping in after just reading for a few days but see a couple of things that I may have missed or that could be an issue. BTW I like the single track plan much more than the double track one. 1. Yard leads. Long yards but almost no leads. You like long trains and have a lot of yard space, but it looks like you'll be building trains using your main line curves, sometimes underneath the scenery. Maybe I don't see what I'm looking for. 2. Yard track run arounds. It's a long haul on either yard if you need to run around a cut of cars. 3. An excess of yard space over mainline space and industry spurs. You like long runs so maybe you don't want a lot of spurs, but it seems like everything is going to look like one big yard. If you put some decent size yard leads in that will cut your yard space down and it may make things look a little more spread apart. 4. Where is stuff going? Right now operationally it looks like you'll take cars from the North Yard to the South Yard and then back again. You'll swap out some cars for each trip, I'm sure, but it would be nice to be able to drop off a long cut of cars somewhere and pick a long cut off. Maybe I'm missing that again. Maybe the yards serve as points on a longer run and are visited multiple times. However, an interchange with another line would accomplish that, or a single major industry with a long siding. Again, sorry if I have missed some crucial information along the way. Mark Smith
Thanks again guys. Yes it is a bit like one big yard Mark. That is the atmosphere I'd sort of like to create in some respects but buildings and scenery will hopefully separate them a bit. Yard leads have been left out at this stage - can you draw an example of what you mean so I can get the picture? I'm thinking of putting crossovers here and there to create run around tracks after I've operated it for a while. Everything is generally going from one yard to the other. Of course they could be separated by hundreds of miles in my imagination. I agree with everone's sentiment about the double track version.........I don't think I like it either. Version 7 with just the one engine service area and slightly de-cluttered yard area (one less track) on the 8' side is attached. John
I like how your mainline can be built ASAP with all the switches leading into yards, and then you can put in all the secondary tracks. You should be up and running fairly quickly.
Yard leads: I lack the tools to make a drawing right now so I'll just try to explain. A yard lead is usually a fairly straight section of track not on the mainline that lies just beyond the yard ladder that is used to pull a cut of cars back from a turnout so that other turnouts in the yard can be thrown and the cut can be pushed onto another track. If you are going to pull six cars from a yard track and move them to another track you need a lead that accommodates those six cars and your engine. If trains are running on the mainline you'd rather not have your switcher or road engine fouling the mainline to work the yard. Straight is important because it is easier to push cars on a straight that a curve, but a gentle curve is okay for a lead. You want to eliminate 'S' curves as much as possible in creating the lead. Most of us chintz on the length of our yard leads unless we have a whole basement to fill with our track, but your switching looks like it mostly has to be done on curved mainline tracks right now. A two-three foot lead would help. I'll try to draw something up to illustrate. Run-arounds: If you are doing much switching (and perhaps you are not planning to do so) sometimes it is very convenient to be able to tack on a cut of cars by running around and placing them on the other end of a string of cars. You have good double ended yards but the distance between turnouts is pretty long. You'd tire of spending the time to run around unless you have a shorter route on one or two yard tracks. This isn't a big issue, just a little one and does depend on how you plan to use the yard. The yard only look and how you'll operate. Would four smaller yards or one large one, one small, and a couple of one-two track interchanges give you more variety in operation? Then you could 'imagine' running from one yard to the other a hundred miles apart but have some other major car spotting and pick up points along the way without feeling like you are going through the same yard over and over again. Just a thought. I agree that you can get started pretty quickly.
John: Your trackplan is looking great! What aspects of the design do you like the best? Anything you think is only "adequate"...just a little bit off and still needing some tweaking? Will you be able to get as many engines in the engine facilities as you want? What are some of your hopes for scenery? Any givens and druthers you'd like to share with us (beyond your clearly stated intention of covering your "tightish" curves by the door and the wardrobe )? Have you settled, yet, on a mountain or town for the area by the wardrobe, or is that decision still under consideration?
Yes Geeky, I like the idea of being able to get the mainline up and running and then tack on the yards/sidings in between some running and day dreaming. Thanks muchly Mark, I get what you mean now. I was thinking I could sort of achieve some yard leads by judicious placement of crossover turnout pairs between yard tracks to make run arounds and yard leads within the yard trackage. I'm happy to fine tune that aspect after operating it for a while. Example: I could drag cars out of industries at "C" along track 4, crossover to track 3 and push them back along track 3 to make up a train on the "C" end of track 3. Through traffic could still slip by on track 2. Does that make sense? I haven't fully thought about the situation on south yard yet but it could be a matter of simply limiting the number of cars in any cut so that the train doesn't go off scene into a tunnel. Dave, good thoughts. I'm sure I can get all my spare engines (all diesel) on those two tracks. I could add another later if required. Actually, I'm quite happy with the plan. It should give me plenty of flexibility in use i.e. long trains, continuous running, switching and a combination of all of those things. I'm mostly interested in running the trains smoothly at prototypical type speeds - especially those grinding, slow hauls up hills and at slow speed through yards and turnouts. Nice smooth coupling and uncoupling of trains/cars. I get quite a kick out of seeing the little models running really well - smoothly, slowly, no stalls - did I mention I'm an obsessive compulsive? Hopes for scenery? I'm thinking about an elevated road down at the wardrobe end (as the hidden track entrance) with a rural scene (low hills) to the right of it going to the back boards. Maybe a town scene at the door area where the track could go behind/under buildings. Not really sure yet, maybe another road bridge, plenty to think about. I have to make the scenes removable for track cleaning/maintenance, so that will have some bearing on what goes there. I'll think about the rest of the scenery once the track is down and running wthout a hitch. Anything I think is "only adequate"? Sure......I need a bigger room!! But if I had a bigger room, I'd want an even bigger one OK, so next week I'll start pulling the 8x4 to bits - been too busy playing with 1:1 scale cars this week ha ha. I'll keep you all posted on progress and thank you for the suggestions and encouragement. Please feel free to keep adding questions or comments if you wish. Cheers, John
Scenic-ed Lids for Hidden Tracks John: One possibility for covering the curves by the door and by the wardrobe… I have a 7-track staging area that I had originally intended covering with lids scenic-ed with an Interstate interchange and a major highway sided by trees. As it turned out, replacing the mock-up of the interchange and making the lid to rest on the 2” hillsides has never been necessary. A month or so ago, another TBer asked about hidden staging, and I quickly threw together a mock-up of a lid that could be used to cover tracks. These are the staging tracks. Note the 2” high white Styrofoam slivers in the distance (close to the I-474 Interchange mock-up) between the staging tracks. These would have been used to support the lid over the tracks. I also put some 2" green Styrofoam supports closer to the camera, but these, too, have never been used because I didn’t need to make a lid for this end of the staging area either. This is a close-up of the 2 inch Styrofoam hillsides with trees. I had planned to rest the front edge of the lid along the top of the hill and let trees and shrubs on the hillside cover the seam. This is the mock-up I threw together in a quarter hour to provide an example of how an easily removable lid could be made. I used a 2 inch thick sheet of Styrofoam because I happened to have that on hand that day, but a 1 inch thick sheet would have been better. If you intend to have higher scenery over the hidden track (hills or mountains instead of a 5-lane flat highway), then the thicker sheet would probably work better for you. The partially completed building was on my work table, and the background tree row is an easily removable view block taken from another part of the layout. I stuck some toothpicks into the Styrofoam and impaled some lichen to make the trees. For what it's worth...
Hey thanks for those ideas Dave. I like the trick of using a screen of trees to hide the "scenic lid" join. Gives me good food for thought. Cheers, John
