Is Walthers ignoring N scale?

Ok folks!

Sounds like this thread has opened several cans of “I hate Walther’s.” Some of you guys have given me enough info why not to buy their stuff so, my question to you my fellow modelers is: Where can I buy descent, close to the real thing type of buildings and other structures? I do not care for Walther’s if they go out of business, but I do care for a company that can produce quality products and that they are available when I want them. How about it folks

Rob

 

Hi Rob,

As far as I am concerned, I find American Model Builders and Blair line kits very good.
They are easy to build (sometimes easier than styrene kits !) and to kitbash.
Although some people will complain about the price of these kits, where are you going to find a SP or NP style depot in N-scale ?
If price is an issue, just grab an Evergreen or Plastruct and Grandt line catalog and build it from scratch all the way...
Some other brands, like Micro Mark seem to do good stuff too, but I haven't tried them yet.
Last though: being a european modeler, my first contact with American style styrene kits before buying through the net, was with Cornerstone series, which were available at some dealers in Europe.
I found out that these kits were a good start for building US style industries.
They accustomed me with American building proportions, which are quite different from European ones.
Now, I can build a wooden elevator or a frame depot from scratch, but Cornerstone items were a great help in doing so.
I often see US layouts on the net or in the press with cute german style factories or commercial buildings, and it doesn't seem to annoy the owner.
Indeed, some Walthers/Heljan kits (notably ADM grain elevator) are a litle "beside" regarding parts assembly, but, once again, scratchbuilding these type of building is not exactly a one evening project, so...

marc

 

The biggest problem I see with Walther's is that they are largely ignoring a market that would boost their sales by leaps and bounds.If they produced everything in Nscale that they make in HO I seriously believe that they couldn't keep up with the demand for the product.Of course it would be nice if they didn't keep pricing the HO and N scale stuff at O scale prices.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Catt:
The biggest problem I see with Walther's is that they are largely ignoring a market that would boost their sales by leaps and bounds.If they produced everything in Nscale that they make in HO I seriously believe that they couldn't keep up with the demand for the product. <hr></blockquote>

If Walthers believed this they would be building more N scale kits and this thread would have not got going. Unfortunately, they don't appear too. There is a significant investment in tooling to manufacture additional kits. (Of course some economy is gained through researching and designing one prototype.) It isn't simply a matter of applying a shrink ray on an HO scale kit to get an N Scale one.

Bottom line: If you want Walthers to start building a greater variety of kits get out to your local hobby shop and buy more of the old ones.

[ 10 October 2001: Message edited by: Grantha ]</p>

 

I can only speak for myself, but I have all the Walthers kits that can be applied to the layout that I have. I even bought the Superior paper Co. just for the building that looks more like a power plant. The other building is too big to put on my layout. See, I am a devoted Walthers customer! Walthers is great...Walthers is good....
I....always.....order.....from....must....resist.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grantha:



Bottom line: If you want Walthers to start building a greater variety of kits get out to your local hobby shop and buy more of the old ones.<hr></blockquote>

Extremely true. Hobbyists so easily forget that there's a business side to this thing we call model railroading. This is one reason why the industry as a whole is dying. Manufacturers are releasing more product than the hobbyists can absorb right now (i.e. Atlas is now the N-Scale "loco-of-the-month-club"). I think it's time that we all step back and take a good look at what's really out there before we demand more product from manufacturers that are only going to sit on the shelves at distributors and dealers until they are forced to sell them below cost.

 

I'll have to agree on the lack-of aspect on the n-scale supply but I've had rather good luck with the 'cornerstone' series of buildings (the 'Brach's Candy Factory's windows left a lot to be desired)and yes you can purty-much forget about their 'freight' cars (I liked their 'bulkhead' flats though)
But they need to be told what is working for you and what is not as an n-scaler. Atlas has listened and so have the others, so let us start working on Walther's if they ignor us then it is their loss not ours.

 

Let's face it the bottom line that Walthers is interested in is their BOTTOM LINE. You know the old profit side of the profit/loss equation. Walthers is in the business of making money not making model railroad stuff. If HO is more profitable than N scale then that is what they are going to make.
Our only hope as modelers is to attract more hobbyists to N scale model railroading and increase the market share that N scale constitutes. Quit belly aching that Walther's doesn't like us. Walther's has done a great deal for this scale and hobby. Get out there and promote the heck out of N scaling. Most of you on this board know the benefits of N scaling and why it is one heck of a lot better than HO, O or any other of the scales. Why not let everyone else know?
N scale model railroading is the greatest part of the world's greatest hobby!!!
OK, I will step off my soap box now.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Grantha ]</p>

 

Herman!

Do you have pics of your layout showing these Walther's products? I am interested to see how devoted you are

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grantha:
Let's face it the bottom line that Walthers is interested in is their BOTTOM LINE. You know the old profit side of the profit/loss equation. Walthers is in the business of making money not making model railroad stuff. If HO is more profitable than N scale then that is what they are going to make.
Our only hope as modelers is to attract more hobbyists to N scale model railroading and increase the market share that N scale constitutes. Quit belly aching that Walther's doesn't like us. Walther's has done a great deal for this scale and hobby. Get out there and promote the heck out of N scaling. Most of you on this board know the benefits of N scaling and why it is one heck of a lot better than HO, O or any other of the scales. Why not let everyone else know?
N scale model railroading is the greatest part of the world's greatest hobby!!!
OK, I will step off my soap box now.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Grantha ]<hr></blockquote>

No offense Grantha but this way of thinking is part of the reason the industry is in the state it's in today. Most hobbyists seem to think that a manufacturer/distributor/dealer shouldn't be interested in making money but instead should want to sell all of their products at buck or two above cost and be happy to do it just to better the hobby of model railroading.

Please allow me to educate you and anyone else who is unaware of some of these facts. Hobby distributors and dealers generally work on a very modest profit margin. A dealer who discounts their merchandise such as we do works on a 10-15% margin. That means we pocket $10-15 for every $100.00 you spend with us. Distributors (that's the places where dealers get their stock) also work on the same or even a little less profit margin. Manufacturers vary. The smaller so-called cottage industry manufacturers work on small margins as well but the large ones can do much better. Put it this way, a full page color ad in Model Railroader Magazine costs over $3000.00 a month. Based on that you can see who's "ripping you off" the most.


Now that you know this, here's what makes me REALLY mad A guy will walk into a pizza place and glady pay $10.00 or more for a large pie and smile all the way home. He doesn't realize that the pie cost about $1.50 to make and that the guy he bought the pizza from just made about 1000% profit on him. That same guy who just bought the pizza is probably wearing a suit that he paid $250.00 for and cost the merchant he bought it from $35.00-40.00 yet he doesn't mind this fact either. Now that same guy calls his model railroad dealer who is ALREADY working on a 10-15% profit margin and wants to bargain with him over a $75.00 locomotive. See what we mean? The hobby industry as a whole doesn't make sense sometimes.

We are involved in several ventures ranging from the Entertainment Industry to Information technology so thank goodness we don't depend on our hobby business as our main source of income but we do really feel sorry for those who do.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: swissrhb ]</p>

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by swissrhb:


No offense Grantha but this way of thinking is part of the reason the industry is in the state it's in today. Most hobbyists seem to think that a manufacturer/distributor/dealer shouldn't be interested in making money <hr></blockquote>

I believe that you may have misinterpreted the intent of my posts.

Last time I checked it was not illegal to make a profit. In fact this is what free enterprise is all about. I believe that manufacturers, distributors, and dealers should make a reasonable profit. This was my point in another post where I indicated there is significant expense in tooling to make a new product.

Ultimately, Walthers is a business. If there is not going to be a reasonable return (as generally defined by ones stockholders) they will not make the necessary investment to produce and sell a product.

HO scale products would appear to be more profitable because of a greater number of modellers in this scale. Hence my point that we need to grow the N scale segment of the hobby to attract more modellers and as a result make supplying N scale products more profitable.

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Grantha ]</p>

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ROMAFERN:
Herman!

Do you have pics of your layout showing these Walther's products? I am interested to see how devoted you are <hr></blockquote> I would love to share pictures of my layout but as of yet do not have a digital camera or a scanner OR a web site to draw jpeg's from. However if you are interested I can tell you that I have the one building from the Superior Paper Co. as a power plant. This is sitting on my very scantly scieniced layout. I have the Northern Light & Power building still in the box but know where it will go next to the modern one when it's built. Also, the Medusa Cement plant sits just a ways from the interchange yard. Everything else, which consists of the State St. stores, merchant's row I & II and the University Ave. shops are built and weathered and will go in my town which will have street running track through it when done. I have the Double Track Truss Bridge on the layout also. As for rolling stock I have 8 Cryogenic Reefers I painted and decaled to Tropicana for my "Juice Train", 6 60' Pulpwood flats, 3 Cushion Coil cars in CSX, 3 53' Flat cars, 1 PD Covered Hopper and 2 sets of Articulated Well cars and 5 single Well cars.
That would be my Walthers inventory. I don't know if this constitutes me as "devoted", but they (Walthers) have gotten plenty of my hard earned money in my opinion.

 

My intent here is not Walthers bashing, I have several of their buildings. Others have stated above correctly that it used to be the N offerings paralleled the HO ones. But now Walthers has dicontinued at an alarming rate staple models such as Allied Rail, Vulcan Manufacturing, Brachs, Geo Roberts, Hardwood Furniture, which are all major kitbashing resources. They even discontinued the oil tanks to go with the refinery! What have they done new recently - the western flood loader and the rocking horse oil pump - neither of which are much use to an eastern or midwestern modeller.

Unfortunately, these were the few sources for american prototype buildings - sure there is DPM, but what have they done new lately - its been about five years since they have.

Which brings me to the blast furnace - I would love to have one, it fits in well with my theme and geography, but $129 for a plastic kit - come on.

I would really like to see some representative of walthers respond to this forum and comment on why they have neglected N.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grantha:


I believe that you may have misinterpreted the intent of my posts.

Last time I checked it was not illegal to make a profit. In fact this is what free enterprise is all about. I believe that manufacturers, distributors, and dealers should make a reasonable profit. This was my point in another post where I indicated there is significant expense in tooling to make a new product.

Ultimately, Walthers is a business. If there is not going to be a reasonable return (as generally defined by ones stockholders) they will not make the necessary investment to produce and sell a product.

HO scale products would appear to be more profitable because of a greater number of modellers in this scale. Hence my point that we need to grow the N scale segment of the hobby to attract more modellers and as a result make supplying N scale products more profitable.

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Grantha ]<hr></blockquote>

OK - We totally agree with you on this

 

I needed Central gas & supply. After three
months of searching I found one at a hobby
shops N scale closeout sale.

It does look nice on my oNeTrak module.

 

My biggest problem with supporting companies like these is that smaller companies like DMP or Blair can roll new ones out but not the big boys.Why should we keep buying the same kits that have been on the markets for years?I already own one or more do to kitbashing of all there old stuff yet I can not get anything new from them?The money arguement cuts both ways a company will not support what does not sell and Nscalers can not buy what is not available or discontinued.The failings of the Nscale market for Walthers has been hurt by several factors . Stale old product(Same kits since ???),limited runs with deleting kits and not replacing them with anything new and lack of vision to think we will continually until the end of time buy kits made from old Heljan molds that have long since been paid for.

 

I have a hard time believing that Walthers can be disappointed with the sales of its cornerstone line - I have several, and most N scale layouts I have seen either in person or featured in magazines have at least one or more.

Randy has stated part of the problem - saturation with old models and nothing much new on the horizon to keep the interest up.

But as far as profitability, clearly most of the tooling has be paid for especially the ones that are Heljan made, so at an average of $25 - $35 a kit, the only costs involved are the materials, packaging and labor to box it up.

But except for DPM and a few small suppliers, Walthers is (was) the major supplier of american prototype buildings, for them to turn their backs on us now is very discouraging.

 

hi all,

I have already posted on this topic but I would like to add my two cents once again.
Following Herman's advice, I emailed to customer's service dep at Whalthers.
I received a kind and quick (24h) reply from a gentleman named Tim.
He took the time to answer my questions and even gave me advice to look at other manufacturers line to find items Whalters doesn't make.
Not bad for a "customers can go h..." company !
As already stated by others, some choices Whalters
has made in recent past for issuing kits are a bit
surprising.
Why offering the modern coal flood loader, which is a blast to kitbash from ADM grain elevator and Glacier crushing plant ?
And why not offering auto plant series in N-scale,
with 50's and 60's era industrial buildings which are so hard to find elsewhere.
The point I would like to make is that it is "easy" to model the 1900-1930 time frame or 70's-90's with kits or parts on the market today, but it is hard to do the same for the 50's and 60's.
The last offering in HO with corrugated sided elevator will be a good test to see, IMHO, if Walthers can think of N-scale transition era modelers, who are so well served by Atlas,Life Like and Kato.
If Whalters make wrong choices about kits they offer, they cannot complain that customers don't buy them.
If think also that offering parts and modular walls from their existing line could be a good thing to pay off inventory cost, giving N-scalers
oppurtunity to buy less expensive stuff but more often.
Given the the fewer scratchbuilding opportunities in N-scale that in bigger scales, such a part line could be a sound business operation.
Lastly, Tim told me that the "quick survey" on Walthers site was a good media to reach the "brass" and telling them what we would like to find.

marc