Scott when you start building n scale engines and your quality is so superior to the others and emd or ge even gets jealous of them because they are better than the real thing then i say that you have a right to complain about these products, as of now i see no reason you have for bashing this stuff! when your models come out i will be among the first in line to see the amazing quality that you produce and pick it to pieces like a vulture on a RAT. how come you only bash the atlas i mean didn't life like do a gp-38? oh wait a minute so did kato and did you see those with the gigantic opening where the pilot should have been? also where was the chain on the handrail over the drop step, oh maybe it fell off. and let me see they did a mopac gp38 and guess what it was all wrong because it had dynamic brakes and mopac had no gp 38's with dynamic. so let me say this when seibler model trains come out i will love to get my hands on these models!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. buy undec. and paint your own then you can only blame yourself for the worst paint job in the world. MITCH
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by atirns: -All Scott brought up the issue of the new motor in the Atlas GP38, and although it was blunt and strongly opinioniated, that is the issue here, not about Scott and whether he needs to "chill". Alot of you missed the point here, this is not about customer dissatisfaction about Atlas, nor Scott not testing the engine before he purchased it and about his monetary expenses, nor whether or where he should give his opinion. This is a forum, discussion board, whatever, and Scott gave his opinion on the Atlas GP38 (quality and mechanically wise) on it. Please recenter yourselves on what Scott said (the motor and quality of the GP38) and not about Scott himself, as this is exactally how flames start. Mike Antkowiak the same one on the Atlas forum<hr></blockquote> Mike. Howcome your not this warm and fuzzy on the Atlas forum? Warren Lindner The same one who will no longer post on the Atlas forum. It's all yours......
We bash Atlas and Kato for the things they do wrong. Meanwhile I just received a ABBA set of Lifelike FA1's and discovered they still do not have directional lighting. I can fix that but Gee isn't that a given anymore. I mean even Bachmann has it.
Kato had a GP38???!!!! They are like a UFO sighting or finding Jimmy Hoffa! Some people claim to have seen one - I for one don't believe they exist.
Guys: I agree with many of the points made here. I personally like to add details (or replace them) on locos that I buy. I think I've made my opinion well known on the "local hobby shop" issue before, but I'll tell you that I will not order stuff by mail or e-mail (of course, I'm only an hours drive from N Scale Supply and Caboose Hobbies, so I guess it's easy for me...) I'd also like to cast another vote for at least civility on the board. We might not "all just get along," but some of the posts on this topic have bordered on personal attacks. One of the points that may bear remembering about manufacturers is that there really isn't a lot of choice for N scale locos. Atlas and Kato are good, LifeLike has caught up, ConCor I've never tried and Bachman is...well...Bachman. Something to keep in mind. Anyway, it is just a hobby, so let's not take things so seriously and so personally, OK? Spleen vented - I feel better!
Wow! There sure are a lot of opinions on this issue. I would like to add a couple of comments: A lot of times we (society, in general) are more than willing to "shoot the messenger" because of the message. This is human nature. Many job disciplines are accustomed to this: QC, auditing, therapy, social services, etc. If you have ever worked in one of these disciplines, you become accustomed to it. As humans, we all react to items in different ways; this is dependent not only on our own life experiences, but also current stress levels, personal/medical problems, moods, etc. ( I know of nobody who never had a "bad day"). The point is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and many people express it in different ways. As far as the new Atlas models, I have no GP38's (yet)(I want high nosed units). I do have some other recent Atlas releases (SD35's, B23-7's) and must say that I am impressed with their overall performance & value. Can I nitpick them? Probably, if I get some prototype photos out and compare. Are they the best models available? Yep, where else could you get smooth running DCC-ready models at such a reasonable price. Do I expect 100% prototypical accuracy and perfection in a mass produced, plastic model? NO! Can I build a better model myself? NO! Life is full of compromises..... modeling is one. Yes, I agree we should strive for perfection, but must realize the limitations of mass production. The locos we have today are way ahead (in quality and detail) of those of only a couple of years ago. Have you looked at a Kato SD80MAC vs. a brass unit? To me, the plastic unit looks better, at only a fraction of the price... Here is my last set of examples.... (this is easy to understand if you are married )If your wife tries on a new dress for an upcoming function and asks your opinion, it is not appropriate to say: Gee, that makes you look fat! If, as a kid, would you want you Mom to remark about something you made: "What the heck is that supposed to be?" Our human nature would prefer a much kinder, gentler response in both cases. As far as Atlas is concerned, I'd much rather state to Paul Graf that I really appreciated their latest offering, however here are a few issues that I noticed... " instead of lambasting his product in front of the world. I think all honest people can appreciate criticism, as long as it is delivered in a fair and just manner. Harold
Whew, for a minute there I thought I was reading the wrong forum! It looked like the Atlas forum, bashing products, sniping, name calling, the whole shebang. Warren, I am sorry you have ceased posting on the Atlas forum - you are giving in to the few "trolls" on there. You know, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it would seem that some state theirs in such a belligerent manner as to incite controversy. One can "pan" a product effectively without calling into question the judgement of others. And........the Kato GP38 is NOT a myth, I bought one from Wick Brandon in 1987 for 25 bucks. It is my only post 1950's motive power and still runs beautifully, if a bit fast. [ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Gregg Mahlkov ]</p>
Whats the big deal about M.U.ing?My Atlas SD 60's run faster than my Kato 90 or -2's but when you put them in a train,they all pull,and look great.I even have a Dummy that i made from an engine that was giving me grief,and in a train it looks like it is pulling just as hard as my SD 90!
I guess my previous post was read alright, but completly ignored, especially by Mopac3092. Just because Scott critcizes, doesnt mean you go out and critcize him, and what you did is bash him. If you dont agree with him, either leave the topic alone or refute him about the topic, not the author. I would like to say some more stuff but Ill let it go at that. Now about the GP38, the detail thing. I suggested to Atlas that they start pulling themselves out of the molded on detail mess that they create for just about anyone that details their engines by removing the molded on detail itself. Items such as grabs irons, lift rings, the MU hoses, uncoupling bars, the brake cylinders on our trucks, the GP unit strut bar, and various other tidbits. My argument was if the people who dont really care for individual grab irons or detailing their models let alone following the prototype, why would they care about having some "clutter" removed? It turned out that some do care, so I made some changes and suggested that the grabs be left, but with dimples on the inside of the shell to ease drilling holes for perfect grab iron placement, no lift rings, the pilots left completly blank as their were so many prototype versions Atlas couldnt possibly model them all, and that for upgraded trucks. Now about the motor, it turns out Atlas has had this on their mind for about 4 years or so. I personally see that our engines are far from perfect, and they can easily, with almost no cost, be upgraded into superb running models. A revised gearing is whats needed the most, as well as a quality upgrade on the trucks. Atlas took the motor step in the right direction, however they need to seriously look into the future on whether to really improve their engines. The whole argument with the new motor is not to limit top speed, it was to improve slow speed control. Our engines run fine from 15 mph-150mph, but out of those ranges its very little control. Yes, there will be those who say I can get my engine to a tiny crawl. Yes, but try turning the throttle a bit and it rockets out, and of course will the engine crawl over a turnout? What is needed is a motor already spinning considerably but the gearing just barely moves the loco. If people can see the fantastic, I mean unbelivable quality that some of the 2mm scales engines run with 40:1 gear ratios, its fantastic. Turn up the throttle a bit and the motor spins, but the engine barely moves. Because the motor is already spinning alot in slow speed, momentum can push the engine over any dirty spots. There would be no more of that jerking movemnt at slow speeds, just a fluid smooth motion. The gearboxes themselves would need to be considerably upgraded. Take apart any Atlas truck frame and you'll the axles with the gears move in and out, sometimes slip, and just be a huge friction mess. If at least the quality would be improved, with well placed gears and in a well engineered position, you would see a huge improvment. That is why Kato engines run so smoother, as the gearing is excellent design. Just compare a Atlas/Kato SD9 to a GP9 gearing and you will see. Mike I dont know why you left the Atlas forum Warren, but its your gig. I myself am sort of POed at some and the manner things are going, but I live through it. Looks like some just want "fun in the sun" commentry and leave.
Hey guys, You all need to "chill out" to quote FriscoBob (to Scott). You guys can go on forever about Kato and M-T, but get shook when someone criticizes Atlas. He is allowed to have his opinion and to voice it just as freely as you do your. Jerry
Several topics: 1. Kato actually came out with a GP38-2. Life-Like did as well- it runs fair, but doesn't hold a candle to Kato. I refer you to Jim Kelly's recent N scale locomotive roundup in July's Model Railroader. 2. Mike: Scott, like anyone else, has a right to an opinion. Problem is, his rant was more like a whiny beef and less of a constructive criticism. I would offer several suggestions for future purchases: Learn to paint & superdetail Buy another product Swap the engine out (may have got a lemon) Live with it When I did HO scale, I learned how to superdetail & paint to get what I wanted- not too may diesels in Frisco colors in any scale. Now that I'm doing N scale, I find the same situation, so I'm back to square one- oh well, break out the airbrush and adapt. 3. I have personally tested locomotives from Life-Like, Kato and Atlas, and like all three. Detail parts look like I'll need jeweler's loupes to see them , but I welcome the challenge. As runners, they all outdistance the junk diesels I dealt with my last foray into N scale in the mid-1970s. The details are even an improvement. If the details don't suit you, change 'em. Just personal observations, you understand....
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mopac3092: Scott when you start building n scale engines and your quality is so superior to the others and emd or ge even gets jealous of them because they are better than the real thing then i say that you have a right to complain about these products, as of now i see no reason you have for bashing this stuff! when your models come out i will be among the first in line to see the amazing quality that you produce and pick it to pieces like a vulture on a RAT. how come you only bash the atlas i mean didn't life like do a gp-38? oh wait a minute so did kato and did you see those with the gigantic opening where the pilot should have been? also where was the chain on the handrail over the drop step, oh maybe it fell off. and let me see they did a mopac gp38 and guess what it was all wrong because it had dynamic brakes and mopac had no gp 38's with dynamic. so let me say this when seibler model trains come out i will love to get my hands on these models!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. buy undec. and paint your own then you can only blame yourself for the worst paint job in the world. MITCH <hr></blockquote> Kato made a GP38-2 not a GP38 and that was 14 years ago when everything had open pilots. And who said their had to be a chain on the handrails above the drop step. I have seen many real locos without the chain.
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HERMANzGERMAN: Mike. Howcome your not this warm and fuzzy on the Atlas forum? Warren Lindner The same one who will no longer post on the Atlas forum. It's all yours......<hr></blockquote> Because Paul Graf allows for some debate on the Atlas forum. However, on this forum, you are theartened by the moderators when you say something they dont agree with or when you start a real discussion.
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mopac3092: and let me see they(kato) did a mopac gp38 and guess what it was all wrong because it had dynamic brakes and mopac had no gp 38's with dynamic. <hr></blockquote> Atlas is releasing a new run of GP38s in HO. They are painting one as UP #1977 however, UP #1977 is a GP38-2 not a GP38!! So what do you have to say about that?
Scott, we are now on page three of this topic, so it is not only Paul Graf who will allow 'discussion' My thoughts on any new plastic reasonably priced locomotive are 'thank you for another good N scale product Atlas/Kato/whoever'. There may be, and almost certainly are things wrong with it, but no-one can say that products emerging today are not LOADS better than only a few years ago. If someone with the knowledge of what needs improving can point them out, great, so that those who are concerned about such things can change them. There are plenty of detail parts around (thanks Craig!). (Or buy brass!) We have no problem with anyone pointing out the shortcomings of any model, as long as it does not become abusive, for which there is no excuse. I do not have one of the models in question, but through this topic know some of the things which need changing, if I ever get one, and if the items mentioned bother me.
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scott Siebler: Because Paul Graf allows for some debate on the Atlas forum. However, on this forum, you are theartened by the moderators when you say something they dont agree with or when you start a real discussion.<hr></blockquote> As a moderator, I have one thing to say to your last post- BOILER SLUDGE! Debate is welcome, and there's been plenty of it (or haven't you checked us out lately? Judging by the number of your posts, obviously not). However, there IS a difference between logical debate and the in-your-face, confrontational style you seem to favor. As to your rant about UP#1977, you're right- it's a GP38-2 number. My suggestion to you, should you buy one, is to remove the numbers and replace them with proper road numbers from a Microscale UP decal set. Make sure you check out a UP roster if you want it correct. However, if you really want to split hairs, 1977 was ex-Katy- it wore red, then John Dere green. When UP (thru the MP, by then a phantom subsidiary) got the Katy, the locomotive went to UP. It was later sold/leased to Kiamichi RR as its 3814, and runs on the former Frisco A&A Sub in burgundy & white. Never saw Jenks blue. Now, to get this back on course, I believe the original debate was about one's percecption about the quality of Atlas N scale locomotives. When I told you to chill (and humorously, I may add), I wanted you to calm down a bit so's we could debate on the quality. I'm of the opinion that I'd only get Atlas, Kato and certain LL locomotives, and forsake all other makes- but that's my opinion. I base this on my comparisons- how they look, run, pull cars, readiness for Kadee conversion, what have you. I'm not interested in the paint jobs, as I plan to repaint all of my diesels. If there's a problem with running quality, I'll either get it solved, or get my money back and avoid that builder (or hobby shop) like the plague. Now Scott, you're not that far away from either Omaha or Lincoln, which both should have hobby shops. Why not go there & check your prospective purchases out in person, or get comments from others on their running ability and looks? Or even check out swap meets in towns not far from you (Omaha, Lincoln, Sioux City, etc)? In this society, there's no excuse not to be a smart consumer. Whether you buy the locomotives there at the shop or through mail order is up to you, but it helps to check 'em out first. That is responsibility as well. You want a debate? No problem- I'll chew the fat with you or anybody else here- this is how ideas are exchanged. Heck, I'm just getting back into N scale myself, and I'm researching all the stuff out there since my journey into HO in 1981. Ya just gotta remember bud, very few people respond to strong negative comments very well. I'm giving you free, friendly advice, since I had to learn the hard way when I was younger myself, and you come across a bit as having a head on your shoulders.SO, suppose you & your buddy Mike over in Jersey tell us a bit about yourselves, the railroads you like, etc. And while you're at it, what would YOU fellas do to improve Atlas' line, outside of having Kato make the drives again? PS. I've heard a lot of stuff I don't always agree with, but unless it gets personal, I don't let it ruin my day. Don't sweat the small stuff It's ALL small stuff have a good one
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by atirns: -All Scott brought up the issue of the new motor in the Atlas GP38, and although it was blunt and strongly opinioniated, that is the issue here, not about Scott and whether he needs to "chill". Alot of you missed the point here, this is not about customer dissatisfaction about Atlas, nor Scott not testing the engine before he purchased it and about his monetary expenses, nor whether or where he should give his opinion. This is a forum, discussion board, whatever, and Scott gave his opinion on the Atlas GP38 (quality and mechanically wise) on it. Please recenter yourselves on what Scott said (the motor and quality of the GP38) and not about Scott himself, as this is exactally how flames start. Mike Antkowiak the same one on the Atlas forum<hr></blockquote> Mike, How's about reading some of the posts here before spouting off? Sure, some are harsh, but if you look, you'll find most are constructive and positive- at least alternatives are presented. When I asked Scott to chill, I meant it- humorously, but I meant it. Hey, this is just a hobby. Besides, if I want to talk to someone about something, busting into a room with guns blazing isn't a great way to present a message. I hear Scott's feelings about his purchase, and I (and others) have offered advice. He also commented on responsibility- well, we as consumers have the responsibility to check out our purchases, and if dissatisfied, either live with them, change them, or swap 'em out for something else (another product or a full refund). If you don't do anything about the situation, you have only yourself to blame. I've given Scott some ideas on how to change things- I only hope he takes them to heart.
Thankfully we all live in a democracy that allows freedom of speech, it also give us the ability to buy or not to buy the product. Personally I will buy Kato, Atlas and Lifelike products if the model they produce is what I want. Sure not all will be prototypical to the Nth degree but I probably wouldn't know the difference anyway. This hobby is about personnal choice and taste whats good for someone maybe totally unacceptable to someone else. As long as we respect each others position then we do not have a problem. I have purchased products in all types of situations and let me say this, I have been involved in multimillion dollar projects and still at the end there are defects that require rectification or a product not built to specification but that is life. This is a hobby afterall and it is all about enjoyment. Trainboard certainly does encourage healthy discussion although some may feel the moderators delete topics at any whim. This could not be further from the truth,yes a small number have been deleted over the past 2 years but it would be less than 1 percent. Constructive criticism is fine lets just not get personnel. I'm sure we all want better products but I feel in the past 5 years N scale has improved out of site.
Of course Kato made a 38, my point is that they are so rare, and Kato takes so long to do a rerelease if ever, that it may as well be a mythical beast - chalk up another for Kato "quality" customer service! Another point - Paul Graf has stepped in to shut down/redirect controversial topics more often there than the moderators at this forum - where are they on this topic? Of course this forum is (was) usually much more civil than the Atlas one, which is like a car wreck on the hiway, as terrible as it may be - you just have to look!
ajb, Paul has only stepped in twice within the past 9 monthes to say that the discussions were off-topic and going nowhere, he never shut down anything. Paul never removed the threads, they're still there if you want to read them. However, here, entire threads were removed of peoples messages, or posts erased or modified by the moderators. It was done only a couple of times, and I really have no big beef about it anymore, but wanted to clarify that. Anyway, lets lighten up. We pay hard money for a product and dont get the most for our dollar, only medicore looks and performance. I see it as a time for change and the issues need to be addressed, no matter how great we think a product is. I posted about what Atlas could do in my last post on page 2, and that the KATO drives themselves are good, but still can be improved. Mike Antkowiak Bob, if you want to know anything about me, just check my profile.
