Hello everyone, I have a question, I am remodelling my garage and the upshot is that I may gain a 10'x12' room for the model rr. I am thinking of HO scale around the walls perhaps a "C" or shallow "W" design. But, if I go with a single level, I have limited length of mainline. That's okay since my focus is on one of the belt lines around Chicago where the emphasis is on switching and transfer runs. Era is 1970s. I expect train length to be 10-12 cars. So I have somewhat modest expects. I see at least one yard, an interchange and a switching district on this small layout. But, I wouldn't mind a little more mainline length. So, I am thinking about a two-deck affair. I took a quick look in the Track Planning book by armstrong and saw it would take 40" at 2.5% grade to gain 12" in elevation. Is my only soluation a helix or does anyone have another thought. I would be open to a mushroom but I need help getting into the correct mindframe to conceive of a plan. Anyway, any thoughts on how in my somewhat limited space to get more mainline would be appreciated. How to gain elevation in a practical method would also be helpful. Thanks to everyone in advance for their insight. Regards, Clifton Linton
Perhaps you could lay a stretched out spirol that would generally appear like a double track maine line? You would gain twice the length that way. For continuous running, you could make a half/over-half/under pass to connect the start and end of the spirol trackage. Turnouts along would provide access to and from for industries and yards etc. If you want a grade for hills you would have the high point at midway, see? Just a first thought.
Just to check the math... 12" gain in 40" is more like 25%. A 12" gain in 40 FEET is 2.5%. Rick (rsn48) has lots of info on the "nolix" idea, which is pretty much what watash described - a really huge, round the walls, scenicked helix that becomes your layout... Andrew
A helix in room your size would eat up alot of space and be visually dominating and ugly to boot. You can do an around the walls gaining in elevation for a second deck. And I ummm.... ahhhh.. well.... could suggest... ahhh... that you go N scale. In a room that size you can have an empire. If you use contemporary engines and cars from today's prototypes you can get a much larger N scale look. For example, SD90's in N work out quite well as well as SD60's, etc. AutoMAX cars and center beams and articulated intermodals are much larger than the transition era equipment, and look great in N scale. Go to your LHS and ask to look at an N SD90 and you will see it is the same length, but not height or width as an HO F unit. Ask to see a Red Caboose Center Beam car and hold it up to a 40 foot HO box car and you will see it is the same lenght. In a room your size you could easily have 18 inch curves which is the equivelant of a 33.33 inch curve in HO. So passenger trains, articulated steam etc will work and look quite nice. In that space in N you can have an empire, in HO a "medium" layout.
Another suggestion I have is to take a look at "surround" staging, as described in Great Model Railroads 2004. Look for Mike Hamer's layout. I was fortunate enough to be given a tour, and have an operating session with Mike, and the layout has lots going on, even though it is somewhat small - he has a room about the size you describe, but the layout doesn't feel small. Another advantage of the surround staging is that the trains are all "self-staging" - when you are done with them, they end up parked ready to go for the next operation - you do not have to "back" them up in order to reset the layout... Here's a few links (the second has some pop-ups, as it is hosted in a free space): http://www.ovar.ca/Mike%20Hamer/Hamer.htm http://members.fortunecity.com/gknowles/layout/mh/mh.htm Andrew
Hmm.... Now thats interesting, though it does seem to be an awful lot of 'wasted' space in a single layer (so... I like scenery!). A good compromise, I think, would be to have the staging all at the second level a foot above the layout and, say, a foot wide. You could hide the climbing track(ie have it enter a tunnel before starting the climb) and the upper deck wouldnt detract from your overall layout appearance, plus provide great access to trains in the hidden upper staging level.
I thought that too, when I first saw the layout - 40 feet of track in staging, and only 27 feet on the "active" layout...??? But when you are there, you really do not miss it. It seems large - 30 car trains do not seem to overpower the layout, despite the fact that it is only 11x13 (actual scnicked space is smaller because of the surround staging). In terms of scenery, you will still have a lot to do. I think Mike told me that there are thousands of trees on the layout...! There are also three rivers, lots of bridges, the town with all its industries, as well as a couple of "backwoods" industries. If you took Rick's suggestion and went to N scale, you'd have plenty of room on one level. If you go to two, I would suggest putting your staging underneath, to allow for a decent backdrop with skyscrapers and so on - it is Chicago after all... Andrew
Looking at Mike's track plan, the "surround" staging is very similar to what I'm planning for my layout. It does take away some space, but I personally do not want to deal with multiple layers. For gaining the elevation, a helix or a nolix would work but if it were me I would be more in favor of a long grade around the backside (perhaps hidden) going up (or down) to the next level.
It's been some time since I've posted here, but I haven't forgotten this group... As for your "problem, have you thought about running a single or double-track up your wall from the main level up to the upper level? In a 12' X 10' room you can climb quite a ways. Since you probably can't climb far enough in 34 feet, maybe you should plan on an around-the-room layout? You would have to build a shallow "shelf" around the room, maybe with a little "guard rail"?? 2.5% is 2.5" in 100". Going up 24" needs 80 FEET! That's almost twice around your room. Many people "cheat" on their layouts and run steeper on straight parts of their track and flatten out the climb through the curves. Doing this and increasing the run to an AVERAGE 3.5% you only need 57 feet. That's 4% straight and 3% curves. Something to think about. Mark in Utah
A year ago or two, Model Railroad Planning featured a train elevator on a layout instead of a helix. It looked a little complicated to build and set up, but I did see an advertise ment for a prefab unit called a vertical staging yard. You could get it up to twenty feet long if I remember right.
Linton : I really believe you should consider Gary Saxton's approach to resolving this matter. Albeit, he has a more ambitious goal in terms of the miles of route he is modelling , and he also is pursuing it in 'N' scale. You do not have to have floor to ceiling shelving , to accomplish your ends. Nevertheless, his approach of going around the room twice on each shelf, with the climbing gradient trackage sometimes in front , or at the rear , of each shelf works. You can also, come off the wall on either a conventionally appearing peninsula w/centered view block(s) , or on a continuous bookshelving (for want of a better name for it) peninsula. Of course you can just do a three shelfer, following his principles in 'HO' , and wind up with a hell of a lot longer run than almost any other style model railroad can produce. However, before discussing all the alternative ways to modify his genius ; let's look at what he is doing , and see the REASONs 'A' toz: http://home.swbell.net/gary46/home.html Personally, this system/ approach has the best answers to maximizing operations over a long run without unreliable hidden trackage runs. Whether you agree or not, after consideration of it , you will come away with insights into thinking out side the box, and to adapting narrow linear spaces to create overall effective modelling scenes. Good-Luck, Peter . [ 09. December 2003, 23:35: Message edited by: slimjim ]
Hello everyone, Thanks for all the valuable input. I can see I really tapped into some great stuff. Okay, I do have some n-scale equipment and that is a possibility. However ... I also have a lot of HO and I'll be darned if I am going to retrofit my n-scale locos with DCC decoders. See, I want to try DCC for the first time. I think it will be much easier to redo my HO equipment. (I started collecting most of my equipment in the early 1990s) Second, I have decided to go with a single level layout. This is my first sizable layout and I want to keep things managable. I would love to use all the floorspace in the room (with surround staging), but the layout has to share space with my workshop. I figure layout height will be 52" and I will extend through one wall to locate staging in an adjacent room. I have been designing on Atlas' RTS and I am close to a workable plan. I will post so I can get your feedback. So, I ask your forgiveness for not usiing all these wonderful suggestions. So, please be gentle but honest when I post my track plan. Regards, Clifton P.S. anyone know how to post one? I'll start a new thread.
