OK, Here goes... I am trying to reasonably document the differences between the BN and BNSF SD70MAC's. Seems to be a big uproar over Kato's (apparent) decision not to release a "BN Version". But it seems many don't even know the differences (myself included, to some extent). So, the test question of the day is... Explain the progression of SD70MAC's purchased from Burlington Northern and consequently Burlington Northern Santa Fe, with particular emphasis on external spotting features such as trucks, cab, doors, fans, vents, panels, etc. (Credit will be awarded for partial answers) BTW, Here are some of my initial observations... 1. The first 75 BN units had only 4 steps, whereas all the rest of the BN/BNSF units have 5. 2. I've read the trucks are different, but I cannot determine exactly what or when these changes were. 3. 9400 to 9571-ish had the nose door on the left side. This is also when the isolated "whisper" cab seam appeared. 4. I've also read about numerous panel/grill/door changes, but nothing specific, and I've not taken the time to sit down and compare locomotive by locomotive to know if this is truth or fiction. [ 12. April 2003, 00:35: Message edited by: Doug A. ]
Here is a paraphrased answer from one poster on the Atlas board (Robbman). If it doesn't come out quite right, it is my fault, not his. I just wanted to give him credit for the answer, regarding the trucks... So, from that, I searched my archives and came up with some photos to reinforce the comparison between the trucks... BN 9638 HTCR NOTE: For comparison purposes, I digitally "flipped" this image on the horizontal axis so that like features lined up. Both are rear trucks, just on opposite sides. BNSF 9846 HTCR II BNSF 9983 HTCR II Note the red struts. Kato SD70MAC HTCR II [ 09. January 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: Doug A. ]
OK, next round of observations. (95% certainty) 1. BN "Executive" SD70MAC 9400-9474 (First 75 Units, built Dec 1993 to Jul 1994) have four steps instead of five (and a correspondingly different handrail arrangement), no iso-cab, and HTCR trucks. The nose door is on the conductors side. These also had lighted rear numberboards, a feature that was eliminated on the rest of BNSF's orders, to be replaced by Scotchlite numbers. (March/April 2000 Diesel Era, "BNSF SD70MACs", p.24) (ALSO: Rounded Fuel Tanks???) 2. BN "Executive" SD70MAC 9475-9571 (97 units, built Sep 1994-Jan 1995) have five steps, no iso-cab, and HTCR trucks. (ALSO: Rounded Fuel Tanks???) 3. BN "Executive" SD70MAC 9572-9710 (139 Units, built Mar 1995-Dec 1995) have five steps, iso-cab, (signified by the "seam" on the nose of the locomotive, and the nose door moved to the engineer's side) and HTCR trucks. 4. BNSF "Executive" SD70MAC 9711-9775 (65 Units, built Jan 1996-May 1996) have five steps, iso-cab, and HTCR trucks. 9713-9724 equipped with DPU equipment. Starting with 9717, the conductor-side side handrails were straightened near the cab. (?) 5. BNSF "Executive" SD70MAC 9776-9837 (62 Units, built Mar 1997) have five steps, iso-cab, and HTCR II trucks. (see previous post about trucks) Entire series (and all following series) DPU equipped. (DE, Mar/Apr 2000, p.24) 6. BNSF "Heritage II" SD70MAC 9838-9864, (27 Units, built Nov 1997-Apr 2000) have five steps, iso-cab, and HTCR II trucks. (see previous post about trucks) 7. BNSF "Heritage II" SD70MAC 9865-9999, 8800-8984 (320 Units, built Nov 1997-Apr 2000) have five steps, iso-cab, and HTCR II trucks. (see previous post about trucks) These have nose mounted headlight instead of the over-windshield mount on all previous units. I still have no definitive information about changes to the body/panels/grills/doors/etc. That notwithstanding, it appears that a BN version could be produced by simply changing the trucks. (i.e. the third iteration in this list) The same step configuration and iso-cab would still be used, meaning no new shell would be necessary, assuming no other changes were made. I would like to hear if anybody is aware of other changes. [ 06. June 2003, 22:25: Message edited by: Doug A. ]
Check out the AC cabinet and associated doors and grills under and around it. I believe there are some variaitions, but couldn't tell you for sure.
The answer is, no there SHOULDN'T be any differences. GMLG sent #9865 to Mexico as a guide to build the kits. If there are any differences they would be minor, like paint variations. (see below) However, apparently Super Steel, one of the other subcontractors that were assembling MAC's for BNSF, did have some paint variations. One item of note is that Super Steel painted the entire radiator section green, as opposed to the rest of the units on BNSF's roster that had the yellow stripes carried through the radiator section. I haven't checked all the units, so I don't know if this is an all inclusive error or just a subset of the units built at SS before the issue was corrected. ************************************ I was in SD70MAC heaven a few weeks ago...at the Alliance, NE shops. We "guestimated" that about 10% of the MAC fleet was within a mile of us. I would have loved to have gone to each and every one and compared notes but our tour DID have a time limit. Here's a shot of one of 'em, though. (A regular 70MAC, not a Mexican made "Chili-MAC") This is BNSF 9411, rebuilt "from the ground up" according to the local shop crews after a major wreck. It was fresh from the paint shop in this photo. [ 14. July 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: Doug A. ]
Excellent work Doug! Why you don't send an e-mail to Kato for the production of BN SD70MAC? Also I would like it !
Thanks for the comments. I am certainly no expert on the topic, but I've definitely learned a lot through this process so far. I think Kato is aware of what it would take for the BN version, I'm just not sure they are willing to take the risk to produce it. I HOPE their plan was to release the BNSF/CR/CSX version (high light) and then the BNSF/Alaska/TFM (nose light) and then evaluate where they are. They've probably ammortized their investment in chassis and basic R&D with the first two releases. So, if they can make a reasonable return for the BN version considering new trucks, cab, maybe handrails, and step configuration, then I don't see why they wouldn't move ahead with it. Like I noted, it appears they can do a "later" BN version simply by changing truck detail, and I don't think a new cab would be much of a hit on their bottom line either, which would move them back to the second BN version on my list. Ideally we want the first version, which gives us the four steps and would allow any version to be kitbashed using available parts. (This is of course assuming that my list is all inclusive, which currently it's probably not) So basically you and everyone else interested in the BN version should contact Kato and let them know. I've already done that!!! (what is the old saying, "Vote early, Vote often" ? ) [ 14. July 2003, 16:54: Message edited by: Doug A. ]
Risk, Kato and BN should not be int he same sentance together, IMHO. Kato knows if they would produce SD40-2's in a later phase, or even rerunning the early phase models in BN, they would not be able to keep upwith demand, selling out at distributor level 9 months before production even begins! I also guesstimate that if Kato would produce SD70MACs in BN, even with subtle incorrect details, to allow multiple runs in new numbers, they'd still strike it rich! BN-anything in our hobby sells fast, and modelers are usually willing to pay top-dollar for them. With my era cutoff as 1989, no MACs would show up in regular service on my BN High Prairie Sub, but unofficially, one or 2 may 'appear'... I understand tooling costs, but in N scale, the tiny differences in the phases of the SD70MACs are so small, only loupes can detect them. I adhere to the 3-foot rule. If it looks good at 36", it's 'Gudenuf' for me! Don't get me wrong, though. I enjoy correctness, and highly detailed models, but in N scale, as many of us are, the minor spotting differences could be 'fudged', without the general modeling crowd detecting it. There are compromises all over in our hobby. If Kato wants to make Bank on a run of MACs, BN is the way to go, they have 311 numbers to choose from. BNSF is still a good choice too. *plink, plink*
Hemi, I agree with everything you just said. Although from this post I may appear to be a rivet counter, I subscribe to the 3-foot rule as well, for the most part. But given the opportunity, I will push the envelope if it seems reasonable. If Kato says they're not ever doing BN MAC's, I'm fine with that and I will take my stockpile of BNSF Exec's and start relettering. I guess the issue lies in the fact that Kato, Atlas, et al kinda have to play to the "least common denominator" and strike a balance between prototypical accuracy, making a profit, and/or losing sales due to prototypical inaccuracies. (and by this, I'm not even talking only about super-specific details, but even things like open pilots and the like)
Hey good news...looks like Kato has announced their intention to release a BN SD70MAC, as well as the "Vomit Bonnet" BNSF scheme. Not sure if they'll make any changes to the trucks or whatnot, but it's good news nonetheless.
UPDATE: Official Kato Announcement of N-Scale BN/BNSF SD70MAC. Model Features — All of these models will feature our White LED Headlight, magnetic knuckle couplers, printed and lighted number boards, MU hose detail, a powerful five-pole motor with dual brass flywheels, and a DCC-friendly mechanism. Additionally, the models will feature walkway-mounted, lighted ditch lights! Handrails will be made of a paintable material so modelers can easily add white end railings. Featuring a new bodyshell and trucks to correctly represent this version of the SD70MAC, these models will also be equipped with all-wheel electrical pick-up and blackened metal wheels. The trucks replicate EMD's HTCR Phase I trucks. MSRP $105.00 [Late May, 2004] — Cab Mounted Headlight and HTCR Ph1 Trucks 176-6501 Burlington Northern Executive Colors 9580 176-6502 Burlington Northern Executive Colors 9615 176-6503 BNSF Merger Scheme 9647
So Doug, it looks like they followed the same train of thought as this thread and chose the last run of BN MACs...
And for those who wondered how current the Kato BN models can be, this pic was taken last week in Denver...
The only differences will be that the paint will be fresh, and unfaded.... I really should reserve a pair, but they have no place on my era. Not even close!
Interesting add-on to this topic, Athearn released details of their HO genesis ones today, and one of the info pages lists the phase differences, the following is snipped from their release: Version I BN 9400 - 9474 (75 units) • Four steps with nose handrails having a shorter vertical section • Non-isolated cab with flat-top nose door on fireman’s side, and 2 windshield wipers • Small bulge by inverter grills is a square • Rounded fuel tank (SD60 style) • Horizontal box behind cab on fireman’s side with a tall section of handrail about 13 inches long behind the cab, a low section of handrail a high section of handrail over the blower bulge, and a low section to the rear steps. • Two wide hood doors, front with latches, rear with no latch, both hinged under exhaust • Engine roof doors are a front X-panel and a rear split-door • Long hood end has knock-outs, numberboards and a horizontal grab iron on the engineer’s side (SD60 style) • Early HTC-R trucks Version II BN 9475 - 9499, 9504 - 9511, 9542 - 9571 (75 units) • Five steps • Non-isolated cab with flat-top nose door on fireman’s side, and 2 windshield wipers • Small bulge by inverter grills is a rectangle • Rounded fuel tank (SD60 style) • Horizontal box behind cab on fireman‚s side with a tall section of handrail about 13 inches long behind the cab, a low section of handrail, a high section of handrail over the blower bulge, and a low section to the rear steps. • Two wide hood doors, front with latches, rear with no latch, both hinged under exhaust • Engine roof doors are a front X-panel and a rear split-door • Long hood end has no knock-outs or numberboards and has the long vertical grab iron on the engineer’s side • Early HTC-R trucks Version III BN 9512 - 9541 (30 units) same as Version II, except: • Square side fuel tank Version IV BN 9572 - 9710, BNSF 9711, 9712, BN 9713 - 9716 (145 units) same as Version III, except: • Isolated cab with angle top door on engineer’s side and 3 windshield wipers Version V BNSF 9717 - 9775 (59 units) same as Version IV except: • Vertical box behind cab on fireman’s side with only the area over the blower bulge having the tall handrail section Version VI BNSF 9776 - 9837 (62 units) same as Version V, except: • Late HTC-R trucks • Three narrow doors under the exhaust Version VIIa BNSF 9838 - 9864 (27 units), CR 4130 - 4144 (now CSX 775-789) (15 units), CSX 700 - 724 (25 units) - (67 total units) same as Version VI, except: • Engine roof doors are two X-panel doors Version VIIb BNSF 9865 - 9999, BNSF 8800 - 8810 (46 units) same as Version VIIb, except: • Nose headlight Version VIIIa BNSF 8811 - 8989 (79 units), TFM 1600 - 1674 (75 units (144 total units) same as Version VIIb, except: • Bulge by inverter grills replaced by a tall panel Version VIIIb CSX 725 - 774 (50 units) same as Version VIIIa, except: • Cab headlight Version IX Alaska 4001 - 4016 (16 units) Same as Version VIIIa, except: • A second box added behind the cab on the fireman’s side with a change in the handrail to a “stair-step” reaching almost to the height of the cab roof • No louvers on the front under-cab access door on the fireman’s side. The full release details are here: If you want .jpg, click on these three links. http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACa0304.jpg http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACb0304.jpg http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACc0304.jpg If you want .pdf, click on these three links. http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACa0304.pdf http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACb0304.pdf http://www.athearn.com/031704/GENSD70MACc0304.pdf [ 17. March 2004, 09:20: Message edited by: Martyn Read ]
Martyn, Thanks for this post! I just now noticed it as it was posted while I was on vacation, very appropriate information. (Now if only those dirty dogs at Athearn could have posted this a year ago, huh??? ) Anyway, it's good to know that I wasn't TOO far off base.
I've heard a dispute about the accuracy of the list of phase differences Athearn put out. I don't know if there is any validity in that, and even though I'm a big SD70MAC fan, I'm not at all picky enough to be able to tell many of the differences. Presuming that Athearn's list is correct, I can understand the hesitency to produce the Version I units, although I still don't think it would take that much more work. However, since they are producing the Version III units which only had 30 units, how hard would it be to make a different fuel tank and produce Version II which had 75 units? Athearn, are you listening? I will still buy 2 of the Version III BN units, but if they were to add either Version I or II, I would buy 2 more. Still can't wait till they come out.
I'd be interested to hear of any queries with it, and maybe with the help of all the folks on here we could check out some pics and verify that.
