I have seend pictures of SP's cab forward steam engines, that were used in the Chatsworth tunnel in the 50's. How was fuel put into the boiler if the crew was in the front? -Robert F.
Fuel was not put into the boiler, (water was put in the boiler), you mean, the firebox. We know what you mean, but some new person might not. These engines were oil fired, so the oil was pumped from the tender to the firebox where the fireman could tend the fire as required. Good question. I got an image of a guy running maddly from the tender to the front of this engine with a shovel full of coal!! That would have been a blast!Ha. ------------------ Watash
Thanks! I don't know too much about steam engines, so sorry about the bad description. I asked because I have a painting on my wall of one coming out of a tunnel a few miles away from me. I had the same type image, and didn't think that was possible, would've been funny though. -Robert F.
I was in no way putting you down, Robert. I'm finding I am a dying breed. You and I are alike; I don't understand the Diesels, and quite often I may use the incorrect terms.(DO!) HA There was a time a fireman was expected to be able to hand shovel up to 9 tons of #9 coal while balancing on the swaying footboard of a moving steam engine. Your subject brought the picture to mind of me running back and forth with my shovel, and I just cracked up! You pulled a goody, its a question not just everyone would be expected to know. WE still buddies? Sure! Did you know that the Southern Pacific AC-9 Streamlined Articulateds were the same Yellowstone type Alco engines, but the 12 AC-9's were made with the cab next to the tender, for racing across the western Kansas/New Mexico flat lands. These sometimes hit 70 MPH pulling 88 cars. That's a mile long! They often out ran us! Enjoy. ------------------ Watash [This message has been edited by watash (edited 04 October 2000).]
Robert, something else about the cabforeward type, they saved a lot of enginemen's lives! The oil fire smoke was not only thick with particulate matter, it was highly toxic too. The Southern Pacific had so manny tunnels, the crews sometimes got too sick to operate the train at all. I have heard of times when one of the crew died on board, and the other one barely got to where there was help. When you are pulling hard up hill and hit a tunnel the engine will slow down under the load, but still be running too fast for you to run ahead and get back on at the end of the tunnel. Running the tunnel was common unauthorized practise for a bit just before it got serious, causing the company to have the cab foreward designed. The public was never informed of course. Running a cab foreward was scarey as hell the first time out. It felt like you were going to fall out the big windows right in front of the engine! ------------------ Watash
I have seen the 4294 in the CA state RR museum and the pipes running forward from the tender. Anyone know where the oil pumps were located to move that oil? Amen to the tunnel comments. Smart design to overcome the crew health problems, especially in the snow sheds over Donner Summit. Maybe these were the first all-weather cabs. They started building them WAY back, maybe even in the 19teens.
watash, no offense taken. From what I have read there was an accident in the Chatsworth tunnel, where a train stalled and the smoke killed the crew because they were behind the smoke stack, and the wind was blowing towards them. So SP got the cab forward engine. -Robert F.
OK, I'll try to answer both of you, Robert and Fitz, as best I can. Southern Pacific had 150 miles up the Sierra Nevada at 2.5% grade with 30 miles of that being tunnels and snow sheds. When double and tripple heading became necessary to pull the heavier traffic loads, the crews began to experience difficulty from the smoke. In 1908 SP ordered two 2-8-8-2 engines designated MC-1 to reduce the number of engines needed. (MC-1 = Mallet Consolidation design #1) Compounds, with huge front cylinders, compared to the rear cylinders. These had 57" drivers, 85,040 Tractive Effort and 4,000 horse power. Cab in usual place. They did the job, but the stack pressure was so great it blew the boards off the roof of the snow sheds, and still choked the crew. The SP designers came up with a cab foreward design and ordered 15 MC-2's #4002 to 4016 from Baldwin that were delivered in February and March of 1910. These were put into service without ever testing them first. They were so successful, 32 more were ordered MC-4 & 6 with 63" drivers, 89,000 TE and 4,500 HP. Some cab forewards of 4-6-6-2 were also made. Then the Designation AC-8 4-8-8-2 was a true articulated high pressure simple engine with 63" 116,900 TE 6,000 HP and top rated speed of 75 MPH. The AC-9 was delivered in 1939, first as coal fired, then later changed to oil. Two design differences set the AC-9 apart. The fire box on the AC-9 was 146 sq ft while the Cab firsts was 139 sq ft. The second change was the AC-9 was fitted with a Skyline Casing over the domes, and the Cab was next to the tender, making the wheel arrangement 2-8-8-4, hence, Streamlined! 12 were made to this design for long prairie lauls at 75 or better MPH. The crews of the cab forewards complained about the danger if they hit a gasoline tanker truck; it would give them no chance to jump. Another was the feeling of falling out the windows in front of the train. The controls were reversed on the cab forewards so the crew would be on the usual side of the rails when going foreward down the track, but they took some getting used to. The unobstructed view probably contributed to the fact that in 46 years of operation, no tank truck was ever hit, and no crew was ever sick from smoke in one. The cab forewards had a "Monkey Deck" between the smoke box front and the tender to assist in servicing the locomotive. Hoboes often saw this deck as an ideal place to ride. Some made it, but depending upon how the engine was performing, many were scalded or asphyxiated when found later. In 1960 the last Cabforeward to be scrapped was #4243. May 7, 1981 the AC-12 (Cab-in-front) was designated a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark. #4274 was the last Cab Foreward AC-12 over Donner Pass. There are several in various museums, but none of the AC-9's, built by Lima, were saved. "And now you know the rest of the story!" ------------------ Watash
Pumps were tried, steam driven in engine, but lost prime from loose joints, and vacuum sucked the seals out. Tried in tender, and blew oil out. Not sure where all ended up, but ball joint seals solved part of the problem. Chatsworth tunnel was probably before 1910 and was not the only one. Understand there were more than ever let on. Other roads had same problem, just gave masks or ignored it. ------------------ Watash
Watash, thanks for the great history lesson on the cab-forwards. I was raised in the east and had no idea (at the time) how many different models and varations the SP had. Have learned since then. Strange as they looked, they certainly saved a lot of lives. As recently as last summer, when UP 3985 and 844 went over Donner enroute to Railfair 99, their helper diesel quit in the sheds and they had to power up to get through, not a pleasant experience for the crews.
It would have delishous smelling, probably at lunch time! Wouldn't you have ebjoyed getting up steam on 3985 in there? WOW!! I"ll bet that stack pressure blew rocks out of the tunnel roof. Ha. Today they probably wore breathers like frogmen have. Sissyies!Ha. Shame those painted deezuls fell apart, I knew they were just a fad, steam will come back! Ha ------------------ Watash
