I am again looking for reccomendations...Gee what a surprise . Anyway I am looking for reference material again on how proto type sidings were used for Different industries. I do not mean the simple warehouse type of spotting a boxcar and voila its loaded and shipped off. I am looking more for multiple siding industries. I have a couple of good articles from old Model Railroader mags. Two specific series are pretty good at what I am looking for. One was on the Auto Industry. It had few track design suggestions and ways to build the buildings as flats to save space. I am shying away from this one for a couple of reasons. Inclluding the amount of traffic an auto plant produces and needs. Upwards of 200 cars incoming and outgoing combined.Not to mention on my tight radius mainline, I am afraid auto racks would cause operational problems. Another good one was on paper mills. This one I liked and am leaning towards modeling. It has a wide range of car types (boxcars,tankers and various hoppers) It also has a more variable amount of cargo. Being a smaller mill I could limit daily needs to say 50 cars or so in/outbound. Much more managable for my limited space. What I am looking for is more details on how and where the various supplies come from. Wood chips,Kaolin ( a clay of some sort I think)Bleaches and dyes, different out bound cargoes of different types. But what do these industries look like. Chemicals and dyes? Could I fudge a refinery to do the job ? It seems to me that even though the cargo isnt petroleum based loading the cars would be somewaht similar. Wood chips/logs mulch etc... I don't want to have "a logging railroad" as such but don't want the cars to just come from staging loaded. Is there such a thing as a small logging area? Do I need a chipper as a seperate industry sight or should the full logs be carried to the mill sight and chipped there?Plus If I have a small logging are I could also send logs to a lumber type industry and in turn loads to lumber yard/furniture factory etc. And how exactly are logs loaded? A giant crane? Flat cars or gondolas? Also wanting some Stock cars for livestock. Again I like the look of stock cars,and the need for grain for feed at the stockyard refigerated cars for the beef /pork once its been processed. I guess what I am saying is I do not want my layout to look like the sidings are just stubs thrown in as an after thought.I want it to look like they were built in with a purpose. Same with the tracks in a yard/engine/car maintenance. Is there a set pattern or set of requirements for needed tracks. I know they evolve over the years as needs and locomotives change. Not uch of a need for ash pits anymore.But whats the actual function for each track in a yard. Should this track be a stub or a through track? Should it be paralell to the main and the building built to the siding,or should the building be placed to look good and then the siding brought to the building? Whats the best way to simulate loading/unloading? Removable cargos? Imaginary cargoes? Basically I am looking for refernce materials, websites,etc again that explain how tracks are actually used and where they should be palced. Should the buildings be considered when planning sidings? I mean sort of chicken and egg kinda thing...which came first..the building or the siding? I am hoping I am not looking for " grey area" answers again. But if it depends on the space available I still haven't finalized a design yet So there is lots of room for moving this to make room for that etc. Thanx again Gents. [ 02 May 2001: Message edited by: Mopartex ]
Greg, First of all, I HIGHLY recommend John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Now for some of your questions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mopartex: What I am looking for is more details on how and where the various supplies come from. Wood chips,Kaolin ( a clay of some sort I think)Bleaches and dyes, different out bound cargoes of different types.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course, there is a readily available supply of wood chips in East Texas. Some kaolin, too, though I don't know how much actually comes from Texas. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But what do these industries look like. Chemicals and dyes? Could I fudge a refinery to do the job ? It seems to me that even though the cargo isnt petroleum based loading the cars would be somewaht similar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is an article in the May '95 Model Railroader about kitbashing a chemical complex from 2 Walthers' New River Mines. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wood chips/logs mulch etc... I don't want to have "a logging railroad" as such but don't want the cars to just come from staging loaded. Is there such a thing as a small logging area? Do I need a chipper as a seperate industry sight or should the full logs be carried to the mill sight and chipped there?Plus If I have a small logging are I could also send logs to a lumber type industry and in turn loads to lumber yard/furniture factory etc. And how exactly are logs loaded? A giant crane? Flat cars or gondolas?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A rural paper mill may or may not have it's own chipper and receive pulpwood (logs of a certain size). One in a more urban setting would receive wood chips. As for the types of cars, logs would be shipped on bulkhead flats; woodchips in high-capacity gondolas. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also wanting some Stock cars for livestock. Again I like the look of stock cars,and the need for grain for feed at the stockyard refigerated cars for the beef /pork once its been processed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A few months ago, there was quite a discussion on the Ry-ops-industrialSIG list over at eGroups/Yahoo!Groups about meat packing plants. Some very interesting (and disgusting) stuff. I don't know if the archives are open to the public. If not (and if you're interested), I could probably summarize some of it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess what I am saying is I do not want my layout to look like the sidings are just stubs thrown in as an after thought.I want it to look like they were built in with a purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So long as there isn't a track out in the middle of nowhere with nothing around it, it shouldn't look out of place. That said, I seem to remember reading something on the ldsig list (eGroups/Yahoo!Groups again) about a spur in the middle of nowhere with nothing around it that was used as a team track for a town that was several miles away. So see, there is a prototype for everything. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Same with the tracks in a yard/engine/car maintenance. Is there a set pattern or set of requirements for needed tracks. I know they evolve over the years as needs and locomotives change. Not uch of a need for ash pits anymore.But whats the actual function for each track in a yard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See the above book. Chapter 4, I think. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Should this track be a stub or a through track? Should it be paralell to the main and the building built to the siding,or should the building be placed to look good and then the siding brought to the building?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you talking about service/repair facilities or industries? A service/repair facility generally would be located with other sidings/yard/service tracks between it and the mainline. An industry would be just about anywhere, depending on property ownership, size of the facility, local codes, and a myriad of other things. For modeling purposes, build a mockup and move it around to find the visual effect you're looking for. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Whats the best way to simulate loading/unloading? Removable cargos? Imaginary cargoes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This comes down to personal preference. Try it different ways, and see which you like best. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Basically I am looking for refernce materials, websites,etc again that explain how tracks are actually used and where they should be palced. Should the buildings be considered when planning sidings? I mean sort of chicken and egg kinda thing...which came first..the building or the siding?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Like I said, get a copy of the book mentioned above (I also suggest Creative Layout Design by John Armstrong) and use mockups of your structures to see how everything looks. Buildings should definitely be considered when planning. Otherwise, you may find out you don't have enough room to do what you want. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thanx again Gents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're welcome. Hope I've been of some help. Dwight [ 02 May 2001: Message edited by: Dwightman ]
Greg, I can help you much, but I have been researching yard/engine/car maintenance for my next layout. I found that AREMA site www.arema.org has their engineering manuals on-line in the library area and have found some go info and example yard design there. you may also want to check-out the RIP facility article in the March/April 01 Model Railroading mag. by Rodger Kujawa it in HO Scale. Hope this helps! Happy Railroading!
Mopartex, Here's LIRR stuff: http://www.nyandw.com/freightsidings.htm 1966 sidings all left over from the 1950's http://www.nyandw.com/lirrmaps.htm Overall route maps with sidings etc. (click om maps to enlarge) http://www.nyandw.com/lirrpatchogue.htm patchogue evolution, maps, industries, photos, etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/files/LIRRnew.txt LIRR more loads in/out (about 400+) copy into excel Hope this gets you started. Best, Steve Lynch www.NYandW.com
Having been the traffic manager of a paper mill for 16 years as well as Director of Marketing and Sales for the railroad it owned, perhaps I can offer you a little about inbound loads. Very few mills still receive "shortwood" (5'6" logs) which moved in pulpwood flats (woodracks) any more. Now they receive "tree-length logs", usually by truck but occasionally on 75' side stake flatcars. Most receive chips, but more in hoppers than gondolas in the Southeast. These cars are 7000 cu. ft. plate "F" cars. Kaolin clay is mined in Georgia and shipped as a slurry in tank cars or powder in centerflow "sparger" cars where water is pumped in to unload the car. Paper mills also receive sulphuric acid and caustic soda in tank cars as well as lime in covered hoppers. Most mills these days use quite a bit of recycled material, so scrap paper would be received in boxcars. It takes four tons of chips to make one ton of paper, so if your mill is rail oriented (and if you are modeling a mill, you would not be modeling a truck oriented one!), inbound should be four times the outbound volume.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregg Mahlkov: [QB]Having been the traffic manager of a paper mill for 16 years as well as Director of Marketing and Sales for the railroad it owned,...[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, there ya go. Wait long enough and the expert'll show up. Thanks for the great info Gregg. Dwight
Contact Kraft Foods and ask for their broschure on "Miracle Whip" facilities plant layout requirements. The building in Dallas is 150'x250', has one siding, one truck dock. The siding is stub. They back in one tank car, hook it up, then three trucks a week bring lables and boxes and bottles, lids etc. One box car a day to two will carry out finished cases of product. Building has the siding in back, truck dock on street in front. (City layout there is a stub rail, street, stub rail, street etc. Whole complex like that) Rows of buildings are lined up on sidings. Printing and folding box company is next door, gets box cars with one ton lifts of paper stock and ships out same, with an occasional flat car with new or repaired printing press. Next to that was printer's ink manufacturing Co., had ink Tankers and Varnish tankers, and truck dock. Best idea is to drive down into the industrial district and note the businesses that are on a spur sidding or stub.
