I've been reading about DCC and it seems like a neat innovation. If you were starting your model train career today would you go that way from the beginning? Would it be wise of me to go ahead and set up DCC from the start even though initially I will have a small layout and most likely not multiple trains? Thanks Russ
If I was starting today, I would start DCC with the Digitrax Zephyr. I would also buy 1 loco with a decoder installed, and one DCC ready, so I could learn how to install them. I started with the MRC Command 2000, which was a great starter system in it's day, and I paid more than the Zephyr costs. Later I bought the NCE system which is a full featured system. The Zephyr can do everything my NCE can, for less.
Russ, You probably won't believe this but, if your layout isn't any bigger than 4' x 8' I'd say wire it for DC operation. Now having said that I'd better start listing reasons, right? Well first off, newcomers to the hobby are usually on a fairly tight budget, not to mention that they may not be sure this is the hobby for them. Most people would rather plunk down the bucks for that favorite loco that they've been eyeing in the magazines, than worry about how to control it. From my own personal experience, I'm glad I built my first layout wired for DC, it gave me a greater appreciation of DCC!! I think if you take the time to understand how a DC controlled layout works with blocks and all, then if or when you do make the switch it will be easier to understand how fantastic command control really is! To put it in a nutshell wiring for DC is much more cost effective but the operation of your layout will be less 'end user friendly' than going with DCC, but DCC will cost more money initially and requires a bit more skill, (decoder installation mostly). Compaired to learning a personal computer software application, I'd say learning about DCC is simple!!!!! My 2 cents 2slim
When your starting out it is really a tough decision. 2Slim made some good points. But i think today with manufactures like Kato, their engines are good and all u need to do is plug the decoder in. No fiddling around. Pray59 made a good point about buying a DCC system and later expanding it. My suggestion is go DCC from the start. Buy a couple Kato engines. Learn how it all works. Then if u want u can buy engines without DCC wiring and wire yourself. Learn the differences between all the engine manufactures of DCC. Kato u can put a decoder in. Athearn and Bachmann need 6 pin harness. Atlas comes with a decoder but u have to replace the board to install a digitrax decoder. There are a bunch of little things to learn but when u have the system u will learn fast. When u buy a DCC system check to see if what type of dealer is in your area. It is good to have hands on advice. i purchased a Digitrax system because there was a distributor in town. No other DCC systems had distributors, so i couldn't get that one on one advice. Anyway Russ best to ya and enjoy the tracking. [ 10. January 2003, 05:34: Message edited by: railery ]
Greenshirt...I would go along with 2slim, and start with conventional DC, for all the reasons 2slim mentions. Were I starting in H0 today, instead of 1956, I would still go conventional DC. One other thing to keep in mind; There are probably 500,000 North American model railroaders, but only 1 or 2 % at most, participate in these forums, maybe less. Those who do participate are obviously also computer-oriented, where the majority of DCC fans come from. I believe you would find that annually, MRC's most popular conventional DC power packs outsell all DCC systems in the world, COMBINED. And this is just one manufacturer of good ol' DC, albeit the largest. Conventional DC is alive and well. regards / Mike
Ahhh yes - this reminds me of the Windows/Mac or Word / Word Perfect debates. Here's how I look at it. People go with what they know. It's that simple. If one is just starting out, and if they don't know DC, block wiring, multiple cabs and all than involves I see no reason to take all that on to later appreciate DCC. That's the same as spending time in prison to appreciate your freedom or wearing a blindfold for a while to appreciate your sight. Uh - uh.... no way. It's an unnessecary step. If you're just starting out, start out with current technology and leave the past where it belongs. Sure, you'll need some blocks if you want to do transponding or signalling, etc - but NOT to power and run lots of trains in the most realistic and fun way possible today. DCC is the present and the future - DC is the past. Leave it there and get on with the adventure!
Well that about sums it up, half think start with DCC and half with DC . No doubt about it DC is cheaper, leaving more of the almighty hobby dollar for models! The fact remains that you want DCC Russ, and there is no reason you cannot have what you want from the beginning.
What follows is a copy of a post I did in another forum explaining - why dcc. The person initiated the thread by talking about bicycles, that is why I start out talking about bikes. First for your bike analogy. DCC is like when bikes went from only one gear to more than one gear. But now it is even changing more, so that the analogy starts to break down. But I will chronicle a discussion I had with a friend and excellent modeler, who won't go dcc or if he does it will be like 15 years from now. "Rick, I hear you talk about dcc a lot. But you know dcc is just an automatic transmission in a car, you do automatically what I do manually. And I enjoy the manual transmission." I replied: "Well Mike, you know the switch to dcc used to be like moving from a manual to an automatic transmission, but its more than that now." "First, decoders are coming out with sound, whistles and bells and what have you. And now some are wanting train detection (I didn't say transponding as it was too technical) to have a computer run part of their train when the operator is running lone wolf, or guests haven't shown up to help with operations." I continued: "You know, dcc has moved beyound just being an automatic transmission. Even as we talk, new ideas are coming forward concerning the uses of dcc." "Mike, when people first moved to dcc, a long time ago, it was just to get rid of blocks. But its gone well beyound that now. You can still do some of the things we want using dc, but it is getting too complicated. For example Mike, a company came out with a decoder that can use a standard power pack to create sound. But Mike you have scratch built all your throttles, will they interact with this new decoder that can operate with dc? Maybe or maybe not, but one of the advantages of dcc is the standardization. If a person wants detection of his trains on a layout, I can say... go buy this or this... and not have to worry about as long and complicated explanation and tutorial session using dcc components. No we are moving beyound just getting rid of blocks. In fact, if you want computers to run some of your trains, we might be moving towards more blocks...lol." And so the discussion went. Will Mike convert to DCC. I don't think so, he is a master craftsman and takes great pride in his skills and abilities electrically. It won't be for a long time, if ever that Mike will gravitate to DCC. So do you need dcc? Well, do you need more than one gear on a bike? [ 10. January 2003, 19:49: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
It would appear I have been 'visited' by the DCC enablers......and they have advised me that The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves...... I will try to hold out as long as I can....escape is futile on my gearless bike, anyway... regards , Mike, a Dinosaur of DC
Mike there's nothing wrong with using DC. I used it for 20 years and did all the tricks with block wiring and 4001 diodes. It was fun, and it worked well. My only point is that I believe it don't make any difference if you start with DC or DCC. You probably have an equil headache with both when you want to have lots of locomotives on your layout... either you do lots of block wiring or lots of decoder installs. Either way you go, you are going to want to learn more about electricity and wiring. I fully support DC or DCC, but If you are interested in DCC, start with it if you can afford it.
Robert...you are correct, and you do see that there is no single correct answer. I do object to those who claim that DCC is the ''only'' solution, and that DC is obsolete, and infer that there is something wrong with those of us who remain in DC, or those who choose DC right now, as is their right. This "DCC is the only way"attitude is a disservice to the hobby, displays a quantum lack of knowledge about our hobby's history, and is an insult to the intelligence of those who choose otherwise. When you get right down to it, these things are JUST ELECTRIC TRAINS, not space shuttles. If we can have toasters, kettles and table lamps that don't have microchips running them [and us], then we can have DC trains too. Is everything new, better ? Maybe. Is everything old no good ? Maybe. Depends who thinks so, doesn't it ! regards / Mike
I have kept out of this debate but thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth. I have a good sized layout that is conventional DC block wired I use a radio throttle for one cab and a second hand throttle for the second cab. I dont run multiple trains on my layout but I do run the mainline independant to the yard and industries. It works great, it is reliable and simple to diagnose problems. If I was starting in the hobby today maybe I would go DCC but it is not mandatory. I have used DCC and yes it does have some great advantages but it does have some disadvantages. On DC you can still run trains on track that is not 100% clean, try doing that on DCC and you will find intermittent operation. When we state new technology has to be better is not correct either. I am in the Rail signalling Industry and we work with both the latest Solid State Interlockings and old relay based system. Let me say for overall reliablity the old relay based system is far more superior. For making modifications the solid state system wins hands down. Relating this back to the DC or DCC argument sure to alter a layout using DCC is much simpler but you do need to install decoders in every locomotive. I have over 40 locomotives and this would be a large task which I am not prepared to do. Like any facet of this hobby it is up to every individual to choose what equipment to use or whether to model prototype or freelance. Which ever type of control system you wish to choose as long as it bings enjoyment to you I say do it.
My turn All of the above is correct. On both sides of the issue. I went with DCC because I didn't care to spend multi hours underneath my layout connecting wires and then trying to figure out where the d*** short is. I have also solved the I purchased one of Tony's "clean machines". There are weeks that I don't run on the layout, so the first thing to do is send a double header around the circuit pushing a clean machine filled with lacquer(sp?) thinner. Then I run to my hearts content. But like I said at the start, both DC and DCC advocates are correct.
Personally I think it is important to learn all the small things about MRing. I would start simple with straight DC. Learn how to wire a layout, get it running right, then move on from there. The nice thing about DCC is you can install it on a conventional DC layout in the future. Once you have the feel for it, then get started with a nice starters set in DCC. Once you figure that out, the sky is the limit.
If you have a limited budget, going DC then moving to DCC adds up. DCC is fun. I went Digitrax and am satisfied because of its expansion capability.
I don't want to cause an argument, but I disagree with this line of thinking. To me, the future of model railroading is DCC. To start a new layout using DC (which is becoming more and more ancient) just so you can learn to appreciate DCC more doesn't make sense. I'd start with DCC from the beginning (which is precisely what I'm doing). It's just a matter of time before engines come standard with decoders installed I think...and you can have the option of buying them without decoders. I may be wrong though...I'm new at this. I also disagree with this (I'm on a role today, huh?). Wiring for DCC is much simpler than wiring for a complicated DC layout. Unless you WANT to, you don't have to worry about blocks or toggle switches or any of that stuff....you just feed the rails. With the drop in decoders, decoder installation couldn't be more simple. With all of that said now, if I were just getting started in the hobby today (which I am), I wouldn't even consider DC. I'd go DCC all the way. You can buy the Digitrax Zephyr or the Atlas Commander for pretty cheap and both will include everything you need to get you from the wall to the rails (except for wire of course)...and both will easily support pretty much any small layout. Now that I've said that...let me also say that I see nothing wrong with using DC whether you're just getting started or if you've been using it all your life. To each their own.... Just my two cents... [ 28. February 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Hoss ]
When I talk about DCC I am really addressing three audiences: 1) the newbie - they're coming in and will do just about anything you tell if they feel it is the right thing to do. 2) the fence sitter - this person has been toying with dcc for a while but isn't fully committed to making the jump. 3) the manufactures who haunt these forums (and they do) - they might pick up on items we are interested in, for me it is computer detection and dcc. The audience I don't talk to is the person who is committed to dc. I don't talk to them because I don't want to be rude, but I understand where they are coming from . I don't want them to feel I feel they are some how "less" than adequate. I don't know how many posts I have see of dc types saying we on the dcc side say this against them, or that. I've haunted more forums longer than most, and more frequently and I haven't seen it. I will say "dcc is the future" because it is. I will say "dc will become obsolete", because it will. It doesn't make sense over the long haul, like ten years from now to have two different systems supported by the manufacture. Kind of like Bill Gates abandoning Windows 98, which he is. There is no r&d on the dc side of things, everything is happening on the dcc side of things. Here is a list of what you can do, or do easier with dcc: 1) Computer detection and running 2) Sound 3) no blocks 4) and just announced, less reliance on track to wheel contact (USP) 5) Speed step running of engines 6) power routing - the automatic throwing of turnouts for various routes. 7) more integrated animation with the layout as a whole - through stationary decoders. I often feel like I am back 25 years ago arguing with a guy about word processing versus using an IBM Selectric (remember those?). That guy eventually broke down and bought a computer. You say it is a different argument than dc vs dcc. I don't think so as command control is computers, just different. As a society we are moving toward further and more extensive computer integration into our lives (this is a motherhood and apple pie statement), and our hobby is no exception. If it can do more fun things, why do so many fight it so? I can understand the argument that you've got tons of locos and it will cost a small fortune to convert. But if that is the case, you should be the guy encouraging newbies into dcc, so they don't end up trapped like you. Hang on, I have to get off my soap box now and clean the platform off for the next person. [ 01. March 2003, 23:34: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
Rick, I share your view. It would be great to understand the basics of DC but the hobby train world is moving to DCC so how much will the basics help? Introducing new people to the hobby does not require "basic training." Let them enjoy the hobby. DCC brings people to that level quickly. I say go for DCC.
i totaly go with dcc. even though i do not have a dcc system yet. i will get the digitrax super empire builder with a dz143 decoder for my 3 by 6 woodland senics senic ridge. i vote for dcc cuz i am going to make my layout expandable by moduals and also for the simplacity of wireing. al you need to do to wire is to have 2 bus wires"main wires" and track leads"power to track" every 3 to 6 feet. i also like the dual cab with the dt 300 and dt400 "made by digitrax". the only things i dont like about dcc is the cost of the cabs and that you cant use throttles from other compinies. otherwise it is the best thing to modelrailinging. [ 04. March 2003, 02:26: Message edited by: UP&Santa Fe nut ]
That pretty much sums up my viewpoint. I have the utmost respect for folks with DC layouts. I've been to a few in my area that are fantastic!!! But... I see no reason to start with DC "to appreciate" DCC. My very first layout was when I was a kid. Had a really neat DC layout that my folks helped my with to some degree. (HO... with that horrid impossible-to-keep-clean brass track!) My last layout (which was my first as an adult) ... I went DCC. The basic idea of being able to "control the trains not the track" blew my mind. Having two locomotives going at different speeds in different directions on the SAME TRACK? With just two wires? Then I learned what DCC was really capable of! Now I'm in the planning stage for a new around-the-walls basement layout. The previous layout is gone, but I've got all the DCC-gear ready 'n waiting... and I'm not intimidated by the wiring for a 18 x 13 room! (Just everything else!)
