Märklin Marklin Pacific/Mikado Motor Upgrade

tjdreams May 7, 2022

  1. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    Marklin Mikado & Pacific motor upgrade

    This is a project I started over a year ago, then got too busy to finish it so I boxed it up and put it aside until last night... when I read a post on Facebook asking about the reliability and performance of the Marklin locomotives that are equipped with their new can motors after having a decoder installed.

    For those who have not run into this issue and/or are not familiar with it, some of us have experienced problems with the decoders letting the magic smoke out and sometimes the 3 and/or 5 pole motors on both American and European steamers burning out after running all day for 2 days in a row at shows.

    In the 90’s Marklin released a 2-8-2 Mikado and a 4-6-0 Pacific American stile Steamer As well as several European versions with a open core 3 pole motor. While there were some variations many of the parts on these locomotives including some of the motors were the same. In later years some of these were released with a upgraded 5 pole motor. Again, while many parts were interchangeable some were not.

    For this write up the primary subjects I am working on are my Marklin 8881 B&O 4-6-2 Pacific and the 88812 C&O Mikado. This same upgrade process should work on most if not all of the American 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 style steamers as well as many of the European versions.
    So, let’s get started

    The first step removing the shell which is easy enough simply remove the screw hidden in the stack on top of the shell.
    20220505_173524.jpg

    Lift the shell straight up and set it and the screw aside in a safe place.

    Next remove the screw holding the motor housing to the chassis located just behind the capacitor and sit it aside.
    20220505_173832.jpg
    Flip the loco over and remove the screw at the rear of the gear cover plate.
    20220505_174007.jpg Leave the front screw tight. The trailing truck and motor should now pull straight out the back. Be careful not to lose the small brass spring that puts tension on the axle (Not all locos have this)

    Now gently remove the driveshaft by twisting the gear as you pull it out of the chassis. if it came out with the motor simply pull it straight out of the motor housing.

    Next If you plan to install a decoder you will need to unsolder and remove the capacitor. Otherwise gently bend each leg up and out a little so you see the screw hole.

    Now you will have to do some test fitting. Depending on what drive shaft and motor combination your loco used you may need to buy the E275123 , or the E226940 ( sane as E261460) or if its in good shape you might be able to use the one that you just removed .

    To figure out which one you need Start by fitting the new E275145 motor on the chassis with the mounting hole on the top. Looking straight down from the top If the hole in the tab lines up with the existing mounting hole on the chassis you will probably need to get the E275123 shaft. If the holes do not line up at all or only ½ the hole is visible, then you have 2 options. (A) order The E226940 or the E261460 which I’m told are the same part and modify it to fit. (B) Modify the drive shaft you just took out.

    Choosing (A) or (B)? How was your steamer running? Great, Good, Just fine in both directions, your probably fine using option (B) modifying your existing drive shaft, However if it’s just running ok, not running too good, or runs better in one direction than the other, choose option (A) order a new E261460 or E226940, as your existing drive shaft may be worn out or starting to wear out. Regardless of whether your drive shaft is worn or not I recommend getting a new shaft. No sense in using a worn driveshaft with your new motor.

    Modifying the drive shaft test fit the spur gear end into the bearing on your new motor. if the gears line up skip the next section
    20220506_171926.jpg

    If the gears on it and the motor do not line up you will have to shorten that end of the drive shaft.
    20220506_172100.jpg
    Stick the drive shaft in a pin vice to make it easier to hold while you grind or cut it down with a cut off wheel. Do not us a pair of snips the cutting pressure will deform/Egg the end of the shaft. I used a cutoff wheel on my Dremel to cut the shaft off then some fine files to remove any burs and round over the end of the shaft. I cut 2mm off the shaft on for the Pacific then ground it down another 0.5mm little by little .01mm at a time test fitting it each time by putting the shaft in the chassis then holding the motor in place grinding it down a little more each time until the plastic motor housing sat flush with the back end of the chassis. Then I took another .01mm off to make sure it wasn’t too tight.

    Now if the holes on your motor tab lined up with the chassis you should be able to slide your new drive shaft in the chassis slip the motor housing on replace the screw fold the motor wires up over the top and solder them to the capacitor on each side or wire in a D&H PD05A decoder it will fit on top of the motor housing.
    20220505_224231.jpg
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    If the holes on your motor housing did not line up with the one in your chassis you can use a small round file or reamer to turn the hole on the motor mount tab into a slot. Don’t over do it you just need to make it long enough for the screw to work
    20220507_014327.jpg

    Making room for the motor

    Now at 6.75 mm wide the inside of the shell is too small for the 7mm can motor to fit. You will need to file or grid a little bit off the inside of the boiler just in front of the cab. For this I used my Dremel with a 194 bit to gently grind about 0.13mm off each side.
    20220505_224337-1.jpg

    Next I cut a 1.5mm section off a 2.5mm diameter piece of brass tubing to use as a spacer filling the gap where the orignal motor mounted between the gear plate and the chassis. Slip the trailing truck over the spacer, slide them in the gap and reinstall the rear gear cover screw to hold them in place.
    20220506_185519.jpg

    Re install the shell and give it a test run.
     
  2. CNE1899

    CNE1899 TrainBoard Member

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    David,
    I have one of these locos, thanks for the great write-up!
    Can you still purchase the foam work surface you are using?

    Scott
     
  3. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Excellent How To David! I ordered motors and drive shaft parts, and they should arrive any day now. So, how does it run under DCC? Have you had a chance to test it out?
     
  4. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    I've had the pacific running on DCC for about 6 hours now. its been running fine but i'm getting a fair amount of chattering noise. Which i think is coming from the excess slop in the idler gears between the drive wheels. noisy but it's still running smooth and steady.

    The Mikado has been running on DC smooth and Quiet for just under 6 hours now

    I'm going to let them run another 2 hours or so then switch the Decoder to the Mikado and run the Pacific on DC to see if there is any difference.

    oh and the spacer I made allows for too much up down slop on the trailing truck. I'll have to make a stepped sleeve once i get my new lathe to eliminate the slop.
     
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  5. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    Your welcome
    No i got the foam cradle off eBay 8 or 10 years ago. I rote the seller about 5 or 6 years ago to see about getting more but never got a response
     
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  6. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    Well the Mikado running on DC has survived a 8 hour nonstop run on my test loop.
    The Pacific with a D&H PD05A decoder powered by a DCS52 Digitrax Zephyr ran the full 8 hours but when I tried to bring it to a stop By turning the throttle all the way down it kept on running at the same speed. Even After switching the direction lever first to stop then to Reverse it kept right on running laps in the same direction. I had to physically unplug the power from the track to bring it to a stop. I'll pull it apart later tonight and try to figure out what's going on and why it kept on running.
     
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  7. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

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  8. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    My Motor and Drive Line came in the mail yesterday, but I had guests so no chance to examine them carefully yet. One thing i notice is the motor is tiny. It looks so small I suspect it's a Drone Motor. I think the drive rod acts like a speed reduction gear the way it is setup.

    That's great news that it ran for 8 hours without burning out. The speed runaway is something I have seen many times, and usually recovers with a power cycle.
     
  9. husafreak

    husafreak TrainBoard Member

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    I have purchased from Achim Grob at Hightech modelbahnen several times. I have this stand, LED lighting conversions, test track, and his end cars with tail lights. He speaks English and is willing to ship to US. Maybe his website is a bit "old school" but tell him what you want and he will respond. Nice guy and quite the craftsman!
     
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  10. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    So I could not sleep well last night, because i could not find my box of ebay harvested Marklin Mikado's I bagged between 2003-2005. This morning I spent hours looking through boxes, and found the Mikado's. I could not find my box of Marklin Pacific's, but I eventually will.

    So I have 8 new Mikes in the box, 5 with the coveted Blackened Drivers and 3 of the shiny silver drivers. I also have 2 Mikes from my original DCC experiments back in the day in the other box, as well as 2 DCC'd Pacific's. Pacific's have 6 large drivers, and were used as high speed passenger locomotives, where Mikado's were equipt with 8 smaller, but higher tractive effort drivers suitable for slow and steady pulling power of freight cars.
    10 Marklin Mikes.jpg


    So I whipped out the new Marklin Motor and Drive Gear to examine:
    Marklin Motor and Drive Gear.jpg

    And I selected a blackened driver Mike to disassemble. I placed the old motor and drive gear above the new motor and drive gear for comparison, all sitting pretty on my extremely well used and highly coveted original version Achim Grob loco cradle :D. I'm ready to begin, wish me luck, as you can see I am heavily invested in Marklin at this point!
    Marklin Teardown.jpg
     
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  11. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    In testing the Pacific last night i found that it was suffering from poor power pickup. So I'm going to try and figure a way to add additional power pickups to the tender wheels. I also added a ESU Lok pilot nano to the Mikado.
    20220508_071926.jpg

    20220508_072016.jpg

    I had to remove the rear shell support that rested on top of the motor housing to make room for the Decoder but it fits just fine.

    20220508_072256.jpg 20220507_023947.jpg


    I also noticed some differences in the various drive shafts.
    On the left is a shaft out of my 8807 Southern Mikado. part #E261460
    In the middle is the shaft That i shortened out of my 8881 Pacific also part # E261460
    on the right is part # E275123
    20220507_025001.jpg

    if you look closely you can see that the distance between the gears is different as well as the distance from the ends of the shafts to the gears. The spur gear on the 275123 is larger and has more teeth than the others and the worm gear is longer.

    At this point I am not sure if I got some mislabeled shafts or some bad info in any case I need to do some more research,

    Edit
    not sure why part of my post disappeared but 3 of the attached photos show the 3 different drive shafts mounted in a Mikado, the modified version of the orignal shaft out of my Pacific is the one that works in both the Mikado and the Pacific the other 2 will not work with the new can motor
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 8, 2022
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  12. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Yeah! I experienced all the same land mines as you did David! I'm looking for a suitable decoder right now, but here is what I experienced:
    04.jpg

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    06.jpg

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    And here is my mechanism testing for low friction, and I think I know what the rattling noise was, I think it was backlash in the drive gear between moving forward and reverse. I had to shave some plastic from the sides of the new motor housing to minimize the backlash. I made a 5 minute video that shows what I mean:

     
  13. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    Nice Work Robert and you were spot on with the chattering coming from the backlash in the driveshaft i just pulled the motor cut a N scale truck retaining spring in 1/2 and slipped it over the end of the driveshaft. Its creating some drag but the chattering is gone. I'm going to order a couple more 261460 shafts and try to cut them a little longer and keep the backlash down to 5 or 10 thou
     
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  14. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    So David, I know you are a DCC Sound guy, and I have built a tender for my Mikado's that has 34mm x 12mm x 5mm of space left over inside. The tender will have 8 wheel electrical pickup, as I am using Rokuhan Shorty trucks. so I was thinking that I might be able to fit sound inside. WHat is the smallest sound decoder that you know of or would recommend?
     
  15. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    Robert
    For sound I would use a ESU 58923 LokSound 5 Nano DCC. And a ESU 50321 speaker. It will be a tight fit but I'll bet you can make it work. The decoder is 5.54mm thick. If you remove the shrink tubing and rearrange the wires you can get it down to about 4.5mm thick. You will have to make your own speaker enclosure. With your skills and tools that should be easy.

    You will need to use a LokProgramer to load the sound profile of your choice onto the decoder or some dealers will load it for you. ESU has well over 100 sound projects to choose from all free to download. Go to https://www.esu.eu/en/downloads/ click on "Sound Files". then "LokSound 5 family" and "LokSound 5 North American and Australian Sound files"

    If your planning to put sound into a few locos the LokProgrammer is well worth the expense. Unfortunately The ESU 53452 LokProgrammer Set is like Z scale better get it when you see it. because it seams to sell out quick. But You can still download the software and play around with it with out having the programmer itself. You can make up your own projects or download and modify one to suite your needs. w Once a sound project is loaded you can edit it with most any DCC system but you can't change out the sound files with out the programmer. If you want to give it a try i have a programmer and can load a project for you.

    For a small non sound decoder to fit under the cab above the motor take a look at the ESU LokPilot 5 Micro NMRA DCC series they are 8mm x7mm x 2.4mm and have good motor control.

    David
     
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  16. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Thanks David, I'll check out Loksound 5 nano.



    Wow, I just hit my 7500th post here on Trainboard, and it only took 22 years and 2 months!
     
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  17. SJ Z-man

    SJ Z-man TrainBoard Member

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    You guys direct from parts from Mäklin shop? I’ll be visiting Göppingen in 2 weeks. There will be 19% CAR teas tho :(
     
  18. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    E275145 Motors. Sold out in the US. I need 10 to get started, and I asked Frank at Z Hobo to order me 10, but it might take a couple years as they are backordered everywhere.

    I can send you money and you can harvest as many motors from Europe as you can find! A Marklin metal geared steam loco with a can motor is far better than any Zamak and Plastic loco from anyone else any day! It might not be the most prototypical, but it's decades worth of reliability and serviceability can't be beat.
     
  19. husafreak

    husafreak TrainBoard Member

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    I bought several of the Lokpilot 5 nano’s a year ago. One is for my AZL Mikado. I understand the AZL loco has no problem with DCC conversion with the can motors in those. Because the burnt decoders are caused by the 3/5 pole Marklin motors. I was wondering why the Marklin locos are popular vs the AZL? Were they the first on the market? Or is it that they are not metal?
     
  20. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    The Marklin Mikado's and Pacific's were dumped on ebay between 2004-2008 for $100-125 new, and many times you could buy a used one for $75. They have an excellent low friction mechanism, and are designed to last a lifetime. When they are 50 years old, you will still be able to buy replacement parts. Granted, they do not math prototype very well, being a caricature of prototype, and the shell is exactly the same for Mikado's and Pacific's, but, someone who was good at 3D drawing could draw up a replacement shell, and have Shapeways make it in brass.

    So AZL is great, and I did buy 3 AZL Mikado's, but they need to be modified to look like NP Mikado's too, so I might as well get all my Marklin steamers updated. When the AZL loco breaks down, it's considered a disposable locomotive, because AZL does not offer replacements for all the parts in their locomotives. You can buy a 50 year old worn out Marklin Z loco, and replace whatever parts you need to restore it to better than new running.
     
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