Vintage brass remotoring project. Would love your input.

Highball-HeavyMountain Oct 6, 2020

  1. Highball-HeavyMountain

    Highball-HeavyMountain TrainBoard Member

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    I’m planning to add an esu loksound 5 decoder to my brass steamers and excited to be doing something new that I’ve never done before.

    I may have gotten a little ambitious and decided it’s probably also a good time to try to learn how to remotor an old loco as well.

    So I decided to open up my pecos brass 4-6-2 to see what I’m working with and came across the old 5 pole with a worm gear and flywheel. I want to change out for the 6 pole motor here.

    I’ll be honest and let you all know I’m super new at this. My tools are literally coming in the mail this week and that includes my soldering station. So there are probably some tools that I’ll need your advice to procure in order to move forward.

    that’s all ok and which is why I wanted to open this sucker up first so we can get acquainted.

    how does someone get these parts off this old motor and on to the new one?
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. mtntrainman

    mtntrainman TrainBoard Supporter

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    Looking at the picture...it looks like the shaft on the new motor is a smaller diameter then the old one. Could be I need to put my reading glasses on though.
     
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  3. Highball-HeavyMountain

    Highball-HeavyMountain TrainBoard Member

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    The new motor is a 1mm shaft. It looks like the older one might be 1.5???

    I guess I’ll need to add calipers to my list of tools.
     
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  4. Massey

    Massey TrainBoard Member

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    First off I see a couple issues here. OK the motor you have is not going to be compatible in it's current configuration. The output shaft is too small to fit the drive from the original motor. Also there is no flywheel, which will not be a big deal but a flywheel will make for a smoother loco.

    So your options are:

    Get another motor that has a larger and longer shaft.
    Fabricate a flywheel that will fit the new motor and also provide the worm gear as part of the full assembly (not hard if you own a lathe)
    Rig a flywheel to the motor then a driveline with some worm gear mech on the end.

    And now we get to the other question you had... How to get the worm drive off. The flywheel and worm drive are on with a press fit, prolly some type of adhesive as well for good measure. A jig to hold the shaft but let the worm and fly wheel sit free would be ideal then use a small punch to push the shaft out of the pieces would most likely be the best. A bit of heat on the brass only would help as well. Light easy taps are the best way, going big or going home will only cost you $$$ in the long run.

    I dont know if anyone produces a remotor kit for your application, I tend to steer clear of brass equipment myself.
     
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  5. wvgca

    wvgca TrainBoard Member

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    it may not need a new motor, i would suggest trying supermagnets in place of the regular magnets though ..
     
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  6. woodone

    woodone TrainBoard Member

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    Yikes! A hammer and punch to remove is a NO- NO!
    If you have to re-move the flywheel, get a puller or a micro press. It looks like the flywheel is also attached to the worm drive gear. So you need to preserve that too. There are sleeves that can be put on the motor to increase the shaft size.
    You use the same press to get the flywheel onto the newer motor. If this is your first re-motor you are going to need to get a bunch of new tools. I have done many re-motors and it takes a bunch of tools plus some good ideas has how to go about it.
     
  7. ns737

    ns737 TrainBoard Supporter

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    it looks like the flywheel, shaft and worm kept together. I think the motor shaft only go's part way in to the flywheel.
     
  8. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    [​IMG]

    Are we sure that is a shaft going into the flywheel from the left. To me it looks like it might be part of the flywheel as the material looks about the same. I'm wondering if the motor shaft goes into what we think is a shaft into the flywheel? Color looks different than the shaft on the other side.

    Sumner
     
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  9. Massey

    Massey TrainBoard Member

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    looks to me like it's just the color of the flywheel reflecting off the silver shaft of the armature.
     
  10. Highball-HeavyMountain

    Highball-HeavyMountain TrainBoard Member

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    I'm honestly, not sure myself - i'm going to have to take a better look at this later tonight. So, it seems that i should probably approach this methodically.

    1. Figure out how to take the flywheel and worm gear off the shaft without damaging something. Is anyone here familiar with the NorthWest Shoreline Puller series? They have 5 variations now. i'm not sure which tool would be best, or if any for that matter are applicable here.
    2. Figure out what the length and diameter of the original shaft is
    3. If they are not directly compatible with the motor that i have, i'll need to either purchase a new motor with the original shaft specs - OR - figure out what couplings/adapters i can get to make it fit.
    4. mount the pieces and reassemble
    5. test run
    As for the flywheel - i'd love to keep it, however i am going to also install Loksound 5, and have a esu powerpack on the way that i plan to install with it. I'm assuming that this would ultimately negate the need for a flywheel unless i'm running DC?
     
  11. Massey

    Massey TrainBoard Member

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    No digital device can replace the physical characteristics of a flywheel drive. The main thing a flywheel does is slow the acceleration of the motor from stop to moving and also makes the motor spin just a bit longer when powered off. This will also smooth out the motor's natural cogging when at slower speeds. Overall it will give a smoother acceleration, deceleration and slow speed operation. This cannot be duplicated well with a decoder.

    I have a Kato TGV that is older and non flywheel version. This train goes from 0 to full speed in record time and when I hit stop at speed the wheels lock up and the train stops in inches. My other TGV is newer and has the flywheels. It gets up to speed a bit slower but also more graceful and if I hit emergency with that loco it takes a foot or 2 to stop with out locking up the wheels. As much as I like the look of the Orange TGV it just doesn't run as well as the other one does.
     
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  12. ns737

    ns737 TrainBoard Supporter

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    are you shure the motor shaft go's all the way thru the fly wheel. in the pic it looks like the motor shaft is smaller then the shaft between the flywheel and worm
     
  13. SPsteam

    SPsteam TrainBoard Member

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    Of you are unable to save the flywheel, go with a coreless motor for replacement, either Maxon or faulhaber. The design of the mort acts like a flywheel itself. They can be obtained with 1.5mm shafts which is usually the standard for brass N scale.
     
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  14. badlandnp

    badlandnp TrainBoard Member

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    I would agree with SPSteam, a different motor is your best bet as a first time. Trying to keep it as simple as possible so you don't burn out on the complexity of adapting things. Finding a new motor with a flywheel that fits is what you want to do. Sanity will remain that way, until you've practised some.

    A puller or two is a good investment.

    Lastly, most older brass had half the electrical pickups of todays, so I would definitely recommend the most 'Keep Alive Capacitor' you can fit. Adding more pickup is a good plan, but the keep alive stuff is also a form of sanity security. After the hours and bux invested, having it stutter and stall is a serious let down,
     
  15. bill pearce

    bill pearce TrainBoard Member

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    This may be of no help at all. I believe what you have is a brass steamer.I have never bothered with steam as I model 1966 Cajon Pass, but I can tell you that I have brought sever brass GP's back to life by adapting them to run on Atlas/Kato mechanisms. It's surprisingly easy, yu need to grind down some rough parts to allow the mechanism to sloop in, and you need to insulate it, Believe it or not, duct tape works well.

    All work well, run smooth and quiet, and saves a great deal of trouble. Don't know if there's a steam mechanism that could be so adapted.
     
  16. SPsteam

    SPsteam TrainBoard Member

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    There used to be a guy called the Motorman who carried all sorts of coreless motors, can't find his site anymore. You can get coreless motors from ebay for your project. NWSL makes flywheels as well. You will need to use a puller to remove the pinion/flywheel from the old motor. The main issue with this particular model is the free floating pinon design, you'll have to line the entire thing up perfectly when assembling.

    I've re-motored most of my brass and each presents unique challenges.
     
  17. MK

    MK TrainBoard Member

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    I believe Motorman has passed away.
     
  18. SPsteam

    SPsteam TrainBoard Member

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    Mk, that is unfortunate. He was a great resource for the hobby.
     
  19. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    Truer words were never typed.

    Electronic band aids do not exist for everything. That tiny little "brain" goes stupid as a grain of sand when the locomotive loses electrical contact. It has nowhere near enough capacitance to keep that motor turning. There is no virtual substitute for a hunk of rotating mass to date. None. If and when it is invented, it will involve stuffing enough battery power inside you'll be tempted to call your electric engine a "hybrid".

    Mechanical physics rule the universe. Even electronics obey those laws. Trains of any size are physical, and the fundamentals of model railroading endure. Flywheels are still good things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
  20. Massey

    Massey TrainBoard Member

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    Just watched a video on YouTube over the weekend were the guys at Garage 54 put 5 flywheels on a Lada. They did it one at a time and with each flywheel the engine took longer and longer to spool up, as well as drop down in the RPMs. They also rigged it to be driven! Then took it out in the snow! It was a fun video to watch. If you have never seen that channel, check it out. They are Russian and simply have too much fun with cars. One of my favorite was the transparent oil pan and valve cover. It's really cool to see what goes on inside your engine as it is running.
     
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