Sequencing a build...

Some of you I've gotten to know through other discussions on matters electrical, but this topic might pull in some folks I haven't met yet. So, by way of introduction, I'm a newbie model railroader, modeling in N, and I'm just wanting to get some thoughts from some of the resident experts...

I've worked in a lot of industries, and in many of them there is a bit of 'science' in how work gets sequenced. For example, there is a science to accomplishing tasks from the most ambitious; like putting a man on the moon, to the most mundane; like preparing a meal, where timing and sequence becomes integral to a good result.

So too, I would think, would this apply to building a layout.

Here's where I'm going...

I've built my benchwork (errors abound, but that's a subject for another thread).
I've established my sub sub-roadbed (HCD) and my sub-roadbed (pink insulation foam).
I've designed my layout and have track (temporarily) laid as I want it.
I have power run on the underside of the HCD; bus wire, AR and circuit breaker, feeders from those devices, etc.
I've electronically 'proofed' my layout and ensured that all features; turnouts, reversing loops, circuit breaker protection, etc., work as intended.
I've got facia almost completely installed (not pictured) but I'm correcting a couple of missteps in that effort.

In the pictures, you can see that I have an elevated section of track that was supported by some temporary risers. Those have now been replaced by longer foam constructs that will become rock walls with tunnel portals and greenery. I also have the graduated styrofoam grades that will need to be covered in some material (plaster cloth, shaper sheet, etc). And I have mountains to construct where you can see some tunnel mouths being established.

So, here's where I'm wondering how an experienced modeler would attack the next few steps.

I need to drill holes through my foam and HCD for feeder wires and turnout control wires - I have two reversing loops in a folded dogbone with AR's, and the 'shank' section that will be powered through a circuit breaker - and I'll need to wire all of the spurs and sidings so they remain powered regardless of how my power-routing turnouts are thrown.

I also have a 'control panel' to build... since I'm using an HCD, I put the hinge mortises to the front. I intend to have my control panel attached to the door via the hinges so I can 'hinge' the control panel up to gain access to the underside. But that, too, may be a subject for a different thread.

I need to secure all of the foam for the elevated track to the pink foam insulation being used as my sub-roadbed... but I aslo need to address the rock wall assembly on those longer foam constructs that the elevated track is on. It might be easier to do some of that work while those pieces of foam are removable, rather than having to reach over the layout, and then set them in place afterwards for final dressing.

It seems to me that all of that will need to be done before I can start securing track in preparation for ballast, getting my traffic control and signal lights and devices planned out and installed, constructing the mountain and it's tunnels, and all of the set up of industry and areas of commerce/residence, roads, crossings, signage, etc.

So, just to be clear, I'm not looking for a roadmap to completion from where I am... but maybe some 'best practices' or advice on what the next two or three steps should be and the order that I might want to consider taking them. And maybe even more importantly, what some of the land-mines might be, and how to anticipate and avoid them.

Just some brainstorming and spitballing, all ideas are good ones until a better one comes along.

Thanks in advance!
G.

 

1. Lay track

2. Then wiring. Drill holes run wires.

3. Test your track. You want to make sure trains don't derail anywhere. Run trains both directions a lot.

4. Then ballast and scenery.

Nice layout BTW.

 

I would run trains on it, before you go much further. Not to make sure the wiring works, etc., but to see how the layout "works".

Is getting into that siding harder (or easier/less challenging) than you wanted? Can you really make that move to spot cars there? Where are the log jams? Does that industry really "fit" there (not necessarily visually, but physically, and from a working standpoint)?

How did you envision using the layout, and does it work like that, or does it need some tweaking?

If your layout does not have a reverse loop, do you have a run-around somewhere that you can switch the engines (and caboose?) to the other end of a train of the length you want to run? You may want a run-around in a yard, even if you do have a reversing loop.

But be careful, you can keep "test driving" your layout for a loooong time before you get around to finishing it!

 

SEE?!?! That's why I come to you guys!!

It does have a reversing loop, facilitated by the double crossover, and it does have a run-around (see diagram), but it's poorly designed in that what could be used as a run-around was originally intended as the siding to service a train station, and would have to utilize the main line in order to work. But, there might be a simple solution in reimagining the yard and how it connects to the main. Good ideas, and worth investigating before getting beyond the PNR in my committment to the layout.

This is my first layout, so it doesn't have to be the 'be all/end all' layout for me. The intent of this layout was three-fold; 1) as an introduction to the hobby, 2) as a hobby to share with my grandson to enjoy our mutual love of, and fascination with, trains, and 3) as a 'means to an end' in developing some modeling skills.

But you make a great point... I've only ever run one loco and set of cars on the layout, and the longview of this is to be able to run two on the mainline (a freight train servicing some industry on one side of the layout, and a passenger train servicing a small 'downtown/commuter' area on the other), with a switcher working in the yard. But again, these considerations were made more to further our skills and expand our knowledge, and less to create a prototypically running railroad.

At the end of the day, this was intended to be fun for my 10 year old grandson and I, which means making progress has to be of no small consideration so that it remains fun and interesting and entertaining for him too. If it was just left up to me, I'd simply go ride motorcycles all day

I know that the utility of all of that is going to be a bit hampered by the close quarters of the layout and the layout itself, but perfect utility was far from the objective. I wanted to complicate things enough for it to present challenges, but not so complicated that it got bogged down in the details and became something that got abandoned rather than finished. For example; while you've hit on something that I haven't quite worked out - running more than one train on the layout simultaneously - I don't know if I want that one consideration to set the drumbeat for the entire rest of the build. So, for example, if I committed to the layout 'as is' and discovered later that it doesn't accomodate running two trains very well without creating hassles and diminishing the 'fun factor', I simply wouldn't run two trains.

Having said that, you've provided exactly what I asked for... things to consider in determing what my next steps should be. And, since I haven't yet purchased my switcher, maybe running that in conjuction with the one loco I have should be the next thing I test.

Thanks Andy,
G.

 

First:
Decide what you want the layout to do, and where and when you want the layout to be located in place and time. It make a difference whether you want to run long trains, whether you want to switch cars, whether your layout is supposed to be 1900 in Colorado or 2020 in Kansas.
Second:
Plan your layout to try and incorporate the stuff you want in the first step. Figure out what operation you want and design the layout to support that. If you have both facing and trailing point switches you want to switch, you'll need a run around, If you want to run trains in both direction at the same time, you'll need double track or sidings. Worst thing you can do is to build a layout and then ask "how do I make it operate like I want?" Bake operation in from the beginning and you will enjoy the layout more when its done.

 

Okay... I got off on a tangent with my last.

Lets assume that I have those considerations decided upon...

Given my circumstance where I'm trying to determine what should happen next between drilling holes for wiring or securing the foam elevations to the sub-roadbed or trying to weigh the pros and cons of creating those rock walls prior to securing those foam elevations to the sub-roadbed...

... and, given that the styrofoam incline/decline material still has to be covered in plaster cloth and that some sections of that will adjoin the pink foam sections of elevation that I'm needing to build rock walls on... That's really where I'm hoping someone can offer some insight into how to develop a gameplan where I might avoid the necessity of tearing things apart to do something that I should have done first rather than having done it third.

Because where I'm really trying to get to from where I am now, is securing track and putting in my ballast. I think, but correct me if I'm wrong, that's what I need to get done in order to unlock the building of my mountain and tunnels and beginning to model the elements of my areas of industry and commerce.

Thank you!
G.

 

Hi Dave!
Right now, my thoughts are running towards getting the broadstroks and ground work for scenery installed which, for the most part, wouldn't be subject to 'era' or a specific location. I have given that some thought, though the immediate things I'm trying to get my head around wouldn't be predicated on those considerations. I put the above thoughts together for BigJake... maybe you could take a look at that information and see if there's some insight that reveals itself to you.

Thank you!
G.

 

George,

Okay, so this is the same layout you've been working on and showing us, just some earlier pictures. That gives me more context. I recognized the similarity in the track pattern/layout, but I was not sure if you were trying "take two" of that layout.

Since you said this is for you and your grandson to enjoy. I'm not sure how old or big he is, but if he is young/small, try to put yourself down on his level (or temporarily raise the layout to your level), to see what he will see when he looks at the layout. Especially a layout set low enough on a table or bench for a youngster to view, will give you more of a God's eye view, which is very different than what the youngster will see.

Most wiring needs to go in before you add much more structure and scenery around your track, otherwise you will find yourself cutting/drilling/fishing through that to route the wires.

Then you should glue down your inclines (if not already done), so that you can shape their sides without worrying about severing the serpentine foam (one it is glued in place, you can cut away the sides as needed, and the remaining blocks will still stay in place.) Then get your retaining walls, rock ledges/faces in place.

One more thing. Keep running trains on your layout throughout the process as much as possible, since your grandson will probably enjoy that a lot more than some of the tedious structure and scenery work.

And above all, have FUN with your grandson!

 

Thank you Andy... that’s a great idea to keep trains running while progress is being made in these other areas. I haven’t had my grandson down because the layout hasn’t been running as I try to work on it. So that really resonates with me that we keep enjoying it while we make improvements.

Good advice on how to sequence the next few steps too. Sounds logical and reasonable.

Thank you!
G.

 

The big problem I see in the design that was posted is having a cross over where it is. That section of track will require that you are constantly flipping switches and can't just sit back and watch the trains run.

My advice on a learner layout is to simplify things.

I actually prefer the original design in the photos. Its very interesting. Maybe not have the crossing in the yard though.

 

The crossing in the yard has been removed. I put it in because I bought the crossing and wanted to use it, but it didn’t make any sense and came out pretty quickly.

It’s become apparent that I should post a more current pic.

On the other, if you’re referring to the double-crossover on the incline in the back, that’s going to be controlled by a switch on the control panel. And it allows for continuous round-and-round operation regardless of how the turnouts are thrown.

Now, that changes if I try to run two locos, but for my grandson it’s pretty straightforward in how the layout operates.

 

Don't know how you are securing your track, but you pretty much have to secure your track before or at the same time as doing the wiring. Once you drill holes through the base and attach wires you have effectively "locked down" the track anyway.

Install all the track.

Wire the track. Wire any track feeders for signals or whatever now.

Test the operation (does it actually run). If it doesn't run, fix it now.

Do rough scenery (major land forms).

Do detailed scenery (ballast first ground cover second or vice versa, either will work.)

 

I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that it's not too soon to think about placement of structures. You probably want to think about the industries you want your railroad to serve, what sorts of structures are suitable and that there is sufficient space for them or do you need to plan on some kitbahing/scratchbuilding? It's good to have that stuff figured out in advance.

 

This is a Kato Unitrack layout, not flex track or other sectional track that needs separate roadbed. Rail joints between Unitrack section joints are well supported to properly align not only the rails, but also the pre-attached ties and road bed, and conduct electricity between sections.

That said, you do need a smooth, even, rigid surface to which to attach the Unitrack. Pay particular attention to changes in grade, avoiding abrupt changes in the slope of the track.

Unitrack's unijoiners are also far superior to other rail joiners, so soldering them to the rails is neither necessary nor recommended. You can use powered rail joiners, purchased or home-made, for powering the tracks as needed. Opinions differ on how many/often powered unijioners you need to use, but you do not need to power every unijoiner. I would not recommend soldering wires to the unitrack rails, it is too difficult to do without messing up the plastic roadbed/ties.

The Unijoiners can be easily soldered to power leads by removing them from the track sections, then removing the metal piece from it's surrounding plastic support, prior to soldering the wire to the metal. Then reassemble the metal and plastic Unijoiner, and re-insert it into the track section. There are articles/videos online showing how to do it, or you can purchase powered unijoiners from a Kato dealer. Whether purchased or home-made, powered unijoiners are more flexible to use as needed on the layout than the powered unitrack sections.

Insulated unijoiners are available where you do not want adjoining rails electrically connected.

 

Hi Tom,
I don't know if we've spoken before, but I sure appreicate your input.

Structures and industries ARE on the menu, and I purchased a couple of models in the hope that they will suit my needs. But, as you've pointed out, plotting them has yeilded some unforseen circumstances.

I took the bases of the structures and laid them out where I intend to have my small industrial area and, while the overall dimensions work in the space I have, the orientation of one of them along the rails does not suit its intended use. So, I'm back to the drawing board on this second structure. The other thing I'm planning is a small station... I have the space where I'd like to put it, but I have to find the structure. There are still several options that I've been considering, I just need to get their dimensions and orentation sorted so I don't make the same mistake twice.

So the down-side is that I have a really nice model in my inventory now, but I'm still looking for an industry that fit the space and can make use of the spurs as they've been laid.

Having said all of that, some kitbashing/scratchbuilding resources would be much appreciated!

Thank you!
G.

 

Thank you Andy!
FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!
I've been using the styrofoam incline/decline kits, but to use them as designed they were simply too long between grade and the elevation I needed. So, I removed some sections to shorten them up. I know this increased the the percentage of grade, but my Kato EMD SD70ACE navigates this with no trouble. I do have some areas where the transitions from one piece of incline/decline material to the next, as a result of my surgery, has some voids between the bottom of my track and the sub-roadbed. These are areas that I know I'm going to have to pay attention to when I start working the plaster cloth onto these sections.

I've been making powered rail-joiners in preperation for this. I bought some pre-made, but the 24-26g wire they used was so small that I couldn't easily crimp a spade connector onto them to attach to my terminal blocks, so I started making my own. And, I discovered those videos after I had made a half dozen, and ruined twice that number of railjoiners trying to work out how to do it But once I had developed a method they got assembled pretty quickly.

I figured that I'd need quite a few; one for each of the two reversing loops (the RED line and the PURPLE line), one for each of the two industrial spurs, the runaround, and each of the three dead-ends in the yard, and the rest of the GREEN line. Then, accounting for the fact that all four points of the double crossover require power, I'll have 12 feeders in play. Even with the relatively small size of the layout, I'll have powered connections within 3 feet of one another, with the reversing loops being isolated from the GREEN line.

Thank you!
G.

 

Take a good look at everything, George. Keep in mind that your solution may be as simple as moving a loading dock or shortening a wall or two. It's always nice if you can retain the character of a structure you like. Of course, maybe you want to come up with something new that contains your favorite elements of a structure you like. I think it might have been the late Art Curren, who almost single handedly invented kitbashing (or kit mingling, as he termed it) that first advocated looking at a kit or kits as just a collection of parts to be sliced, diced and assembled as needed. Creative thinking encouraged.