Hi all. We've got the checkerboard set up here on the cracker barrel; pull up a bucket, stump, folding chair - whatever you can find - and let's actually approach this as objectively as we can. First, the roads I am familiar with are those in the northeast US; that's where I lived. I do not intend to imply that modelers of western, southern, or granger roads are any less important or deserving of new models. I simply am aware of the operating challenges that faced eastern railroads, and the motive power that emerged as a result. The "Big" railroads in the Northeast would be the PRR, the NYC, the Erie, the B&O, and the C&O; I am leaving out alphabet route smaller roads, the various Anthracite rregion roads, and the Pocohantas coal region only roads like VGN or N&W, simply because 1) they're smaller than those mentioned above, and 2) we can safely assume their challenges, and lack of suitable models, are the same or even worse. Let's run down the list, starting with PRR. Note that I am NOT mentioning brass models, as these are often simply not up to modern standards with very few exceptions (Like Key's gorgeous H8/9/10 for PRR.) I also am not mentioning models which are out of production and decidedly below today's quality standards; mostly older Trix and Atlas/Rivarossi models. PRR: Good steam models now available for the K4, the M1, and the T1. Models exist of 0-6-0 types, as well as the small fleet of 2-8-8-2s they bought from N&W. Models can be made of the L1 using an existing mechanism (Kato) and the GHQ kit, but which is dwindling in supply. The Key H8/9/10 series 2-8-0 is rare, but a jewel when one can be found, due largely to having a separate gearbox that can be replaced / serviced. BLI will almost certainly come out with a 2-10-0 in N soon. Definitely the best off of Eastern roads for steam modelers. NYC: Pretty bleak. The Model Power light Mikado is a fine engine and the NYC had a load of them. There was (Sadly, seems not to be re-run) an 0-8-0 model, and NYC had over 1000 of these, all based on the USRA Design. And there's a dated Hudson by Con-cor. No easy bashes of other types are possible. B&O: Also bleak, but not as bad as NYC. Alas, aside from the EM-1, no one has done a B&O specific model, and the EM1 is out of production, rare, and pricey. Light 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s from Model Power are available, and the Spectrum 2-8-0 loosely resembles a smaller B&O E24. No models exist which can be easily made into the B&Os other classes of Pacifics or Mikados, and the B&Os large fleets of both simple 2-8-8-0s and 2-10-2s are just absent, and only very complicated builds permit them. Again, B&O had herds of 0-8-0s, and the only good model is out of production. C&O: Arguably in the best place after PRR; a wonderful heavy mountain exists - out of production - TWO versions of the C&Os flock of 2-6-6-2s (though out of production) and a 2-8-4 Kanawha model all exist. Oddly, no Allegheny has been done in N outside of brass. Other C&O types, such as 2-8-0s, 2-8-2s, and their large fleet of 0-8-0s, are unavailable, though the latter can be fairly simply made from the Life-Like model. Erie: Erie was well supplied with USRA locomotives, and thus models of their heavy 2-8-2s and 0-8-0s exist, though the 0-8-0 model is, again, sorely missed and rising in price, when it can be found. An older Con-Cor 2-10-2 is also available, if not a great model. No good 4-6-2 to represent anything owned by the Erie is available, and the Erie's distinct berkshires are also difficult to represent. Erie isnt in a terrible place for Steam modelers. So what do we see repeatedly? No good bash-friendly 4-6-2, heavy or light. Good 4-6-2 models, even USRA types, are sorely needed. No 0-8-0 models <--- this is important. Every steel mill, lakeside dock, and marshalling yard had these things crawling around in it. No mallets of any sort in production. NYC and PRR were only bit players with regard to Mallets, but B&O and C&O both had hundreds. Some numerically or historically important types simply not now, nor ever, in production. NYC's Mohawk, B&Os big 6s or 2-8-8-0s, and C&O's Allegheny and 2-8-8-2 have never been available. Finally, a few features N scale steam sorely needs: A universal loco-to-tender connection scheme to allow us to swap tenders about. Copy Bachmann. Not everyone wants wires between cab and tender. Bash friendly boiler shells; separate cabs, walkways, and domes would be wonderful! All wheel electrical pickup. Seriously. We shouldn't have to say this. And working front couplers. What do you all think? Should steam fans just consider HO more? What about your favorite road(s) wherever in North America they may be? What do you all think? Musing and complaining, Amanda
One Eastern model whose absence I don't understand is the C&O 2-10-4, also built as the PRR J1 during WWII.
That's not a bad idea. If done well, some kind of modular system where different, easily-modified shells could be placed on the same chassis. It wouldn't be perfect, however, and we would be getting complaints that a driver on one locomotive should be 76 inches but are represented by scale 80 inch drivers. But I would go for it. In the east, I'd start with a B&O Q4. And in the west, a Kato FEF mechanism on an ATSF 4-8-4 (any class). Rick
Even if the manufacturers are unwilling to invest in new tooling, they could rerun the more successful locos. Atlas acquired the tooling from Walthers for the Life Like locos but no word about rerunning the steam items. Maybe there isn't enough interest in steam but any new or re-offered loco seems to become unavailable form the dealers in a short time.
I haven't been to many shows, but my impression is that layout displays now are running diesels with more than 50% being models of the last 40 years. Anyone who remembers seeing the last revenue steam operating was born before 1950, now almost 70 years old. Sadly, we're a dwindling market for manufacturers. The model manufacturing employees who make the decisions as to what to develop next are our children's, even grandchildren's age. None of them have ever seen a steamer in revenue service. Hopefully a few have seen one of the few steamers still in operation, but probably not.
I forgot about that one! You're quite right. This may have been done in brass, but certainly never in styrene. Indeed! With the rise of 3D printing even, we could print a shell, a cab, whatever - making the mechanism itself is much harder. I'd love a good Q4 (and accompanying B&O vandy tender!) and I know any sort of western 4-8-4 would be very well received. Sadly, I believe that Atlas was unable to obtain the tooling for the 0-8-0 and the 2-8-8-2. The tooling was lost somehow and they've no plans to replace it, last I heard - which was on this board somewhere. I fear you're right. I mean, I was born in 1976, and certainly have never seen a steam engine in revenue service, but I grew to love steam because it was different; it WASNT what I saw day in and day out. The latest slab-sided SD70 variant or SD40-2 really just doesn't excite me as much. Most N scale stuff is diesel themed, and even in HO, most of the good road specific models came out decades ago in brass, though the situation is much less dire than in HO.
Well, there are some steam locos that would probably sell more than others just because they lived on to be part of excursions and other steam programs. C&O 610 would be a good one. Regular service, AFT, Excursion service and several paint schemes. N&W 611 has been done by Bachman but wat about the N&W 1218 or some of the smaller Southern engines like the 4501 or maybe the 630 or 722 that spent many years in excursion service on the Southern and NS before heading off to museums where a couple still run to this day. All 3 of these smaller Southern engines even sported multiple paint schemes that could be done. All of these examples would hit a wider range of eastern modelers since you could basically run them in most time periods modeled. With that said, I fear Hytec is right. People tend to model what they know more often than not so within the next 30 years, there probably won't be any left who will remember mainline steam in revenue service and at the rate mainline excursions' in the east are fading away, it will only be a couple of generations more before those of us who remember those glory days will be gone as well.
Well I am one of those fortunate old geezers to see steam still running and lash-ups of F units also. I used to ride my bicycle down to the rail yard and watch the steam at work and then over to Holly Sugar where they owned and operated a tank loco.
I'll second the motion to develop good steamer mechanisms and a standard wiring scheme/plug for attaching tenders. Then, hopefully, 3D printing and other cottage industry types can make us shells and detail parts to build what we want to have.
BUT, Bachmann is just coming out with Thomas in N scale, yet. And, Thomas is a steam engine (even if a Brit). Sooo, why can they sell Thomas toys in N scale (to adults, obviously, since toddlers aren't exactly N scale-ready), but they can't sell a decent USRA light 2-8-2?
Thomas sells because Thomas and Friends excite the kids, so their grandparents, sometimes parents, buy them. We have an HO Thomas layout at the MS Coast Model Railroad Museum and every kid gets very excited when they see it. Or if the kid hasn't seen it yet, the adult will say "Oh Look, There's Thomas". We also have Thomas engines in the party rooms that kids sit on and push foot-powered around loops of track. Thomas Sells!!!!!
Maybe you missed my point: THOMAS IS A STEAM ENGINE!!! So, the idea that kids today have no interest in steam engines seems like a stretch. Thomas seems to be introducing them to steam. And, just because "Thomas sells" does not mean that realistic steam engines would not sell. With BLI and Bachmann selling out of their steam engine runs, it seems ridiculous to keep reading that manufacturers have decided that steam is a dying market that they don't need to support. Show me a market survey, not just some speculation.
One of my most vivid memories of when I was four years old was standing next to a P&WV 2-6-6-4 at the station in Bruceton, PA. The P&WV interchanged with the B&O at Bruceton and little did I realize that seeing those 2-6-6-4's and B &O EL 2-8-8-0's would soon be history. But those things scared the ba-jeepies out of me. Because of smoke abatement laws passed by many communities, the 2-6-6-4's would soon be replaced by H20-44's and the 2-8-8-0's by EMD F and GP units.
No, I didn't miss your point, and I apologize if I upset you. My point is that Thomas is a cartoon character, a popular toy enjoyed by children. Whereas this topic is addressing the lack of reasonably accurate models of prototype steam engines that operated in revenue service throughout North America until the 1950s. To compare Thomas as an accurate representation of a North American steam engine is no more credible than to comparing Woody Woodpecker as an accurate representation of any woodpecker occurring throughout North American forests.
Oh YES he does. When I was with an N-TRAK club, we often did shows where there was an HO club, as well. They used to steal our audiences, because they had Thomas. At the time, there was no Thomas available in N. I bought a bubble stuff Thomas toy, hollowed out the thing and jammed it onto the old Atlas 0-6-0T chassis. I found two small Clarabelle and Annie cars, put N scale trucks onto them, and put the whole business onto a loop of private trackage. The children LOVED it. It did not matter how funny it looked, IT WAS THOMAS. That was all that mattered. On to Original Poster's topic...................... NYCS- The Kato Mikado is an H-9, but, it was unique to the P&LE and rarely ventured off P&LE rails. In addition, in the era of the Central Gothic lettering that is on the tender, these things actually had larger tenders, taken from the underachieving H-8s. They also had their air pumps moved to the pilot deck and shielded. There have been numerous calls for K-11s by NYCS modellers. NYCS did run those Pacifics on freight trains on the Water Level Route as well as on local passenger. There have been calls for Niagaras and Mohawks. The 4-6-6T would get more than a few buyers. If C-C did that one and hung all sorts of road names on it, it would sell. In order to address the contact problem, though, every wheel on it would have to be live. I want to see an A-2a. B&O- Did operate originals of the USRA light Mikado and Pacific. It also had a class of light Pacific copies with Vanderbilt tenders. The first USRA locomotive, a light 2-8-2 built for the B&O still exists. B&O also had USRA 0-6-0s. The newest version of this from B-mann is an excellent locomotive if you will substitute a SPECTRUM USRA switcher tender for the stock tender. It is an easy swap, although it does require some work. Spookshow has a mention of it on his website and there are other tutorials out there regarding the necessary surgery. B&O did have several classes of what essentially were copies of the USRA heavy Pacific, but, we do not currently have a decent heavy Pacific out there. After the 1890s, the only 0-8-0s that B&O had that were built as 0-8-0s were a few from swallowed roads. Other than that, all B&O 0-8-0s were 2-8-0s from which the railroad had the pilot trucks removed. B&O EL-3s and EL-5s look much like a USRA design. Sagle and Stauffer go as far as to call the EL-5 a "USRA 2-8-8-0". You could remove the trailing truck from a LL USRA 2-8-8-2. The trailing truck does look more like an afterthought on that one, as it does on several other 2-8-8-2s. Its real purpose was to guide the locomotive when it was running in reverse. Many roads used 2-8-8-2s as helpers. Often, when it worked a train one way over a hump or up a hill, it went back to the start light and in reverse. The early helpers were 2-10-0s. ATSF was the first to notice faster wear on aft driver tyres. The shops at Raton welded a trailing truck onto a decapod and the tyre wear diminished. ATSF then had Baldwin build several. The trailing truck looks like an afterthought on those early 2-10-2s, as well. B&O ran a large number of 2-8-8-0s. You could remove the trailer from a USRA 2-8-8-2, affix a C-C Vanderbilt and have a reasonable facsimile, as the C-C Vanderbilt is based on a B&O design. Still, most of the Vanderbilts on B&O 2-8-8-0s were stubby and had four axles, not the six of the C-C. The two real gaping holes in B&O power are a heavy Pacific and a BIG SIX, although A Q-4 would not be bad, either.
Wow, this thread has grown! Thomas is indeed a steam engine, though he is (admittedly) probably easier to set up tooling for than, say, a NYC Niagara. Still, there are people my age - too young to have seen steam in real revenue service by about 20 years - who do like steam, so I guess we do exist, though maybe we are a minority. I hope not. In like 2002 I was in a hobby shop looking for something or other - model aircraft parts likely - and saw an issue of Model Railroader on a stand. Inside was an article about Howard Zane's massive layout, and I was hooked. I saw his Appalachia themed railroad, and said "Oh, I could model the area of West Virginia where my grandparents lived!" and began my research. When I learned it was B&O and Western Maryland country, my love affair with those two roads began. I got hold of a copy of B&O power, and the photos of those massive 2-8-8-0s climbing hills and snaking around curves, throwing a storm of steam and smoke and soot into the sky, hooked me, and I have loved that engine ever since. I can only imagine what they actually looked, sounded, and felt like for John Moore and Inkaneer. As an aside, I later switched (or added) interest in my hometown of Ashtabula, and the NYC, PRR, and Nickel Plate, simply due to the lack of steam in N for B&O/WM. At least the NYC and PRR have a number of types in brass. Brokemoto: I didn't include the P&LE's H9s because - well, I forgot. You are indeed right! And a K11 is a natural, as so many of them ran on mixed trains or even freights; wonderful little locomotives. I'd buy an A2-a model because they look amazing! The B&O we agree on. You are right that the L1 and L2 switchers were made from E24 and E27 Connies, and a satisfactory model can probably be made by doing the same thing with the Spectrum 2-8-0, though adding a 2nd sand dome, and the profile of the domes, is a bit of a challenge. I might have a go at putting an old Atlas 0-8-0 shell on a Spectrum chassis to see what happens, and perhaps obtain some useful NYC switchers from it, simply because I happen to have 1 of each laying about. The ELs looks very little like the USRA 2-8-8-2, being both shorter and with a smaller boiler, and they definitely share that Baldwin family resemblance with the Q4s, S1s, and P6s. B&Os purpose built ELs (the -1, -2, -3, and -5) were quite compact, being small enough with the usual stubby Vandy tender to fit onto 90 foot turntables. The B&O built them so compact so they would work on the tight curves of the West End; the big S1 2-10-2s were very long-legged for their type; too long for these curves, hence they stayed in Pennsylvania on Sand Patch for the most part. The ELs were also virtually all simplified. Stauffer said in B&O Power that the EL5 actually were USRA mallets, and it was one of his few errors; the B&O had already ordered the EL5s, and Baldwin was already building them, when USRA control began, so the B&O was allowed to receive them in place of a batch of USRA heavy Mallets. Years ago, someone (Concor or Rivarossi?) sold a "B&O 2-8-8-0" that was simply a USRA mallet with the trailing truck removed, and it makes me wince when I see the things. Ick. You know, that Baldwin cab with the brakeman's extension sounds like a good 3d printing project...
What tends to upset me is the speculation that N scale steam won't sell, now or in the near future, because only old fogies remember seeing it in action on real railroads. It is just counter-productive to keep saying something conclusionary for which there is no real supporting data, and some non-supporting observations. Pictures and even current cartoon characters still attract attention to steam locomotives in younger people. There are posters on here that are saying they not only are too young to remember steam locomotives, but are interested in running them on model railroads. There are people posting here that say they ended-up running diesels in N scale because there was not enough steam available. I have heard people say that they moved to HO scale due to the better availability of steam locos. So, to me, there seems to be plenty of observations that say that steam locomotive demand in N scale is under-served by the manufacturers. And, somebody saying "Well, that's just the old fogies who aren't long for this world anyway, so why go to the trouble of developing steam models" is ignoring that the demand is not limited to old fogies. People who peddle plausible but unsupported beliefs are the bane of our society, because they lead to unrealistic expectations and actions.
The only reason I am ignoring steam today is that the old fingers and eyes just won't let me fiddle with it much. It is a lot easier to fiddle with or repair a diesel mechanism than rod steam. Doesn't keep me from messing with geared steam however and I have gone that route.
Well this is interesting, but I will add an observation. WHen UP brought the 844 to Roseville with the Executive Train, it drew thew largest crowd of kids of all ages. I think if there were good models to run, then there would be a lot more interest in steam. The 0-8-0 put out from Life Like could not pull worth a darn. Some other have done a lot better, but big steamers seem to be fraught with issues like the Athearn Challenger and Big Boy, and I have and have heard about issues with the IM Cab Forwards. So until the manufacturers can make better and more reliable models, there will not be a real market for them from customers. The best running steamer I own is the ConCor (Kato) Hudson. It isn't pretty but it pulls a lot of cars. My Challengers and my Cab Forwards are so hit and miss I regret buying them. And they have been removed from my inventory.
The only large N scale steam locomotive about which I have not read legions of complaints is the B-mann B&O EM-1. The vendors told me that it outsold several of the other large western steam locomotives, combined. Big steam does sell, and it escapes me why. Many chose N scale because they did not have too much space. The smaller and average sized steam locomotives are better suited to home pikes. I always preferred the small to average sized steam, anyhow. I would buy a Big Six or an A-2a, but, other than that, it is ten wheelers, Pacifics, Mikados, moguls and consolidateds for me.
