14 x 4 Shelf... HO or N?

WM183 Jul 8, 2018

  1. WM183

    WM183 TrainBoard Member

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    Hi all.

    I've been given the OK by the VP of operations, aka my husband, to build a shelf-type layout in our upstairs office / workshop. I have a 14' x 4' L shaped section to work with, and as it will go above our desks, so a 16 inch width will fit well, and enable me to reach without issue. Whatever I do will be transitional period as I love both steam and 1st generation diesel, and it will be set in the Appalachian / Eastern region, as that's where I am from and what I am familiar with. I am debating whether to build this layout in N or HO, and I've come for some feedback and input.

    I now live in the Netherlands, which is actually part of my concern. Anything I buy must be shipped from the US almost all the time; there is very little in the way of American prototype stuff for sale in Europe, and what there is is almost universally modern. That means that I have to pay customs fees, +21% tax, on anything I buy from outside the EU. I have a few scenes in mind that I want to fit on the layout, my givens:

    A coal mining scene (need not be huge, a 2 track mine is fine!) with perhaps an associated siding for other goods shipped to the mine. Probably one of the "cornerstone" scenes on the layout.

    An urban / town scene, with a bit of elevated track crossing a road, etc. To me nothing says Eastern railroading like crowded red brick cityscapes with some elevated trackage, a road crossing with a bridge emblazoned with the railroad's insignia, etc.

    A handful of industries to switch! I'd like at least one more "cornerstone" industry, such as a metal forming plant perhaps; gondolas of steel and boxcars of associated bits. This would of course be attached to the town scene above. This also need not be huge.

    I am not overwhelmingly concerned with large amounts of staging. I plan to have a display case / storage beneath the layout. Enough staging to store the empties to pick up for the operations is enough for me.

    The reason for my worry about whether to do HO or N is because I enjoy most of all building and detailing; I love building kits (a F&C resin kit is, for me, several evenings of pure joy!) and I cannot really do that in N - N pretty much comes ready to run, some mods like my WM GP9 aside. With a layout this size, I think a quality over quantity approach may be best? N, however, would let me fit more into the given space, and make siding lengths and so on more prototypical.

    What do?
     
  2. CarlH

    CarlH TrainBoard Member

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    Do you want to be able to run trains on a continuous loop? If so, the radius of curves you can use will be a concern if you model in HO and have 4 foot maximum width - you would have a maximum 21 inch curve radius at the places where the "end of the loop curves" would exist. And the 21 inch radius would put your track very close to the edge. There are many locomotives (mostly 4 axle diesel) and shorter freight cars which can run ok on 18 inch radius curves, but then you will face operational limits in having to use small locos and short freight cars. These tighter radius curves make it difficult to get reliable operations and avoid derailments. It's one thing to get trains to run reliably on a loop near the edge of your table surface, but when you try to start connecting to sidings for storage and industries it gets more complicated.

    Some may offer their opinion that they don't like 18 or 21 inch radius curves in HO scale no matter what. I have spent much more time with N scale, where we usually try to advise that people try to avoid 9 inch and 11 inch radius curves, which are roughly analogous to 18 and 21 inch radius curves in HO.
     
  3. WM183

    WM183 TrainBoard Member

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    Running continuously is not a priority. It is one of those things that "if i can do it, cool. If not, no worries." The operations afforded by the mine and the other big scene / industry, plus a handful of smaller industries, would give me plenty to do a few nights a week. As I plan to run 8 coupled steam, 0-8-0s or Mikes / Connies, I would not go below 15 or so inches in N, and 25 inches in HO. There will only be one "curve" at the bend, so I can get away with a generous radius. Turnouts will be no 6 or 7, or even 8 if i can fit them (save at the mine, where 6 is probably just as prototypical)
     
  4. WM183

    WM183 TrainBoard Member

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    My idea was an Appalachian/Eastern city scene and a mine/country scene separated by an area of forest and the bridge over the river. Erie (I love Erie also) in Northern PA, or WM in Maryland or SW PA, both come to mind.

    Here is an example of what I (very roughly) would like to do. Red track is main. I think continuous running, while i'd like it, is impossible even with complete rework due to the window).

    As it sits, I suppose F would be staging for one train, and another would simply enter on the main line. Staging for 1 train is good; 2 would be nice, but I do not think I can fit a small yard/engine house (i'd love a water standpipe at least, and perhaps a coaling station for the 0-8-0, but might get to spaghetti ish)

    Note that it says "Take 1 N scale" but I am not wholly sold on doing this in N. If i am going to run short trains, HO might be better?

    A = Tool plant (gets gondolas of steel!)
    B = Finished tools (Boxcars out)
    C = Another part of the big tool plant (A - C are 1 business perhaps? or might be 3 different ones. Thinking aloud)
    D = Elevated siding off elevated track - used to deliver coal or gravel to dealer?
    E = Street scene with elevated tracks overhead (the street and nearby buildings are in a depression/valley of sorts)
    F = Siding / Interchange with PRR? (This may be removable? I could use one of the 2 tracks at G, perhaps?
    G = Sidings for the industries. Plenty of lead track over the raised track part
    H = Bridge (possibly two, depending how i locate the lead o the mine) over a river; PA countryside here.
    I = Main line on to the east
    J = Coal mine! I am not sure how to do a runaround track here. Operation clunky atm.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. VinceP

    VinceP TrainBoard Member

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    Interesting following along on this one.

    You actually can use the crossover between C and H as your runaround track.

    That affords you being able to swap the engine from one end to the other to shove/push the cars into the tracks that you need to switch.

    Hope i'm not too confusing here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2018
  6. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
  7. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Very nice plan! Lots of operation possibilities and great scenery opportunities.

    A minor tweak of the mainline turnouts, for what it's worth: Instead of running the mainline (where it crosses the river at H) through the diverging route of a left hand turnout, angle the main from the upper right corner to a right hand turnout on the left side of the river bridge, so the run-around track is accessed through the diverging route and the main goes through the straight leg of the TO and then curves to run parallel with the run-around track over the bridge above the depressed urban scene. Then, instead of using two right hand turnouts at the left end of the run-around, use two left hand turnouts.

    Some operators like to work switching puzzles, like the Inglenook Shunting (Switching) Puzzle. If you install 2 left hand turnouts at the left end of the run-around (instead of the right hand turnouts), and use the 3 tracks in front of the ABC buildings (back track, track G, and the Main) for spotting cars, and use the run-around track as a lead or drill track, you would have all the ingredients for an Inglenook Puzzle...and, of course, you could always just switch these tracks normally, if you weren't in the mood for a challenge.

    To add interest and variation to the appearance of their layouts, some modelers prefer to minimize how much their tracks run parallel to the front edge of the shelf, so they introduce subtle curves or run their straight tracks at a slight angle to the front of the shelf. And instead of aligning all streets and rivers and buildings at right angles, they run them at angles (like you've done with the depressed urban scene). Also, by angling streets and rivers before they meet the backdrop, it is possible to have them disappear behind trees, hills, or structures and avoid the abrupt (and rarely realistic) transition of a 3D road or river disappearing into the distance of a 2D backdrop.

    On the left of the plan, track F has a turnout leading to a spur that can only be accessed by a switchback move. Some operators include them on their layouts because they are reproducing a specific scene from a prototype, or because they like the added operating complications inherent in a switchback track configuration (it's a mini-puzzle). Other operators deliberately avoid such complications by eliminating any switchbacks from their track plans. If you want to eliminate the switchback off of track F, you could run the depressed urban scene at the opposite angle (bottom to the left, top to the right), and put a right hand turnout on the main that would mirror the left hand turnout (to D) on the run-around track. (If you make such a change, you may want to move the industry with the elevated track (coal trestle?) to the front of the shelf, so visitors can see (and you can photograph) the details more easily, and have ground level of the business at the back of the shelf at the same level as the main and run-around. This would also let you hide where the (top-to-the-right) angled depressed road enters the backdrop behind trees, structure, or hill, and it would also make photographing the area easier, because items in the front of the shelf are lower than those at the back, so it will be easier to take pics at scale railfan height instead of only getting bird's eye views of scenes at the back of the shelf.)

    It looks like the points of the turnout to Industry D are positioned on the bridge over the depressed road. If that is so, and if you plan to use manual ground throws by the turnouts, or use Tortoises or switch machines mounted under the track, you may want to shift that turnout a little to the right (off of the bridge) so that a manual ground throw may be mounted next to the points, or a Tortoise or other switch machine may be mounted directly under the track (instead of having to mount it at a distance and fabricate a remote mechanical linkage). In addition to keeping the points of turnouts at least 2 inches off of the depressed road overpass/bridge, the points to the turnout to the mine and the points to the turnout to the right end of the run-around should be at least 2 inches off of the bridge over the river. (Even if you plan to use Peco spring loaded turnouts and flick the points with your finger instead of using manual ground throws or electric switch motors, it is still a good idea to keep the points off of bridges, because even a minor fumble may damage delicate bridgework (Sigh...Been there, done that.)

    As opposed to using track F for moving cars on and off the layout, keep track F as an interchange track and use the main between G and F as the track for moving eastbound cars onto the layout. That way, you will have 6-8 cars entering the layout, 6-8 on the interchange track, and 6-8 cars in industries. Eastbound operations would be set up with a loco and 6-8 cars (and caboose?) on the left end of the main.
    1. Loco leaves all cars on the main.
    2. Loco pulls all cars from interchange track F, and half are set out on track G to go east, other half are used as handles to pull 3-4 cars from industries, set out those pickups on track G to go east, and then set out the cars used as handles in their appropriate industries. Several run-arounds may be needed to properly switch all cars.
    3. Loco picks up all the cars from the main (but leaves the caboose, if there is one), and half are set out on interchange track F, other half are used as handles to pull 3-4 cars from industries (NOT any of the cars just set out from the interchange track in Step 2 above), and those pickups are set out on track G to go east, and then the cars used as handles are set out in their appropriate industries. Again, it is likely that a few run-around movements will be necessary.
    4. Loco completes the eastbound run by pulling all the cars from track G, backing to the left to pick up the caboose, and then pulling east on the main to the far right end of the layout, where the train is removed.
    5. Westbound train is set up on the main at the right end of the layout.
    6. Steps 1 through 3 are repeated going westward, but using the outside track at the mine to build the westbound train instead of track G. (The main at the right end of the layout should be left clear (except for the caboose) for pulling long strings of cars from the interchange or industry tracks.)
    7. Loco completes the westbound run by pulling all the cars from the mine track onto the main, backing to the east to pick up the caboose, and then moving west all the way to the left end of the layout, where the train is removed.
     
    Penner likes this.
  8. txronharris

    txronharris TrainBoard Member

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    Personally, I think N scale is the way to go for your space and concepts. Dave makes some great observations above about operations, and I think that with the size of the layout and the apparent cost of getting stuff from the states, if you look here in the swap meet section and even put some wanted posts up, you could find a significant amount of the locos, cars, buildings, etc for less even with shipping.

    I think best (read "most cost effective") thing for you to do is figure out your era (you mentioned steam but might want to consider transition era for both steam and diesel operations), railroad your modelling, location, industries, and what type of operations you want to do. Do you have an N scale club there? That would be a great resource too. I think you've got a great concept and the start of a potentially awesome layout.

    You could always use removable reversing loops on the ends to give you the continuous run option. I saw someone that used two islands with wheels on them (I think from IKEA or somewhere similar) for that purpose so they used the drawers underneath for storage and the track mounted on the top for the reversing loops when they wanted to switch from a switching layout to just watching trains run.

    Hope those comments help and please continue to provide information on what your progress is.

    TxRon
     
  9. WM183

    WM183 TrainBoard Member

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    Wow, thank you all so much!

    Wonderful advice and feedback here. Vince, I had planned to use that as a runaround track, as well as a "passing siding". I will need to move the turnout a bit further left as ppuin mentioned, so shortening it some; i would like to be able to fit a loco and 7 or 8 40 foot cars in there. Any advice on changes to ensure I can do that?

    Traingeekboy, I would build exactly that sort of dogbone if I were sure i could! Due to the window on the left side of my layout, I had thought about having one loop of the dogbone in the right corner, and the other 3 or so feet out from the left edge. I could definitely shift a few things further right to create room, and use the leftmost 3 feet as a staging section maybe. The problem is, I have to do this with shelf brackets; I cannot really build benchwork that goes to the floor, due to the space beneath the layout being the location of a pair of desks in this, our upstairs office / craft room / guest room. I would want a minimum of 13 or 14 inch radius, which means perhaps 30-32" width of the shelf at the widest point for the loop. I had debated doing a hairpin-esque turn on the right side, or a wye perhaps... I am quite new to all this! And yes, ebay has been the source of 99% of my stuff so far; luckily i can get peco track here easily =D

    PPuin, where do I begin to thank you? Wow. I will definitely have some subtle curves, etc in the plan - this was just a very preliminary attempt at a track plan, and I expect it needs quite some changes! I'd like to be able to get a good hour or so of operation between one train switching the industries in the town, and the other running to the coal mine. Continuous running (So i could fit in perhaps another little tipple and a passenger station or two) would be amazing, but I expect would require so many sacrifices? The changes you recommended concerning turnout placement are exactly the advice i am looking for; this is the sort of mistakes I'd like to avoid as I build! As far as that little stubby spur at F I did that on purpose actually; perhaps a little car shop / RIP track was my thinking. The switching operation description helps so much too! It gives me ideas for options, thank you.

    txronharris, I will definitely post want to buys, and I have settled on transition era Western Maryland in N, with an interchange with... someone. C&O, B&O, or PRR would all work, and I like all three. Decisions! I do have some gorgeous H21 hoppers and X29 boxcars from Bowser and Red Caboose, respectively... and as far as train clubs, I expect further north they do, in Eindhoven and certainly in Utrecht. I live in far south Limburg, and there's not much here. In Aachen, nearby in Germany, i am sure there is one, except I don't speak German... ack. Maybe in Maastricht?

    Thank you all so much. In a nutshell... does the plan look like it's sound, in basis? And do you see any places where i could perhaps add a small engine house? Maybe in the bottom left. Oh, does a model railroad need a way to turn locos around, or is the odd visit from the Five Fingered Turntable from the Sky ok? And does anyone see a way to add continuous running, or even a single loop to get an out and back sort of layout, without compromising what I have built so far? The empty "woods" on the right edge gives some room for tweaks I guess.? Heavy stuff, this!

    Amanda
     
  10. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    You asked: Does the plan look like it's sound, in basis?
    Absolutely! It can be operated as a stand-alone layout as Vince and I indicated; and, as your interests, modeling skills/resources, and finances allow, you can easily expand to the right or left with minimal modifications.

    Regarding N scale versus HO:
    For what it's worth, I had O scale and HO trains as a child, sold them all when I was in college, and started in N scale after graduate school when I was living in a small studio apartment and only had room for a 14 inch x 30 inch switching layout (Time Saver Switching Puzzle). As I moved to bigger places, I would build bigger layouts but stayed in N scale, because I could get so much operation in the same amount of space. Now, almost 50 years later, I'm living in a house with a 35x40 foot basement filled with a double deck N scale layout, and (since 2011) also a 6x20 foot HO switching layout. Unless your current vision and dexterity are problematic, I'd say, go with N scale now and add HO later as vision/dexterity force you, or finances allow you.
     
  11. Kez

    Kez TrainBoard Member

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    You could model an entire COUNTY in Z scale..... ;)

    But I know Z is not for everyone.....sure would look nice in all that space, though! :)
     
  12. WM183

    WM183 TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks guys. I am staying with n for now; I'm still in my early 40s, so barring further deterioration of my eyes (my diopter is -10.5, but it's been stable for years and is correctable) I should be safe for a few decades. After seeing the gorgeous Erie 2-8-4 build in the z scale section I decided n is plenty big!
     
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  13. DEAG

    DEAG New Member

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    Hi there.

    There is not much I can contribute, but still...

    Fremo has an American section both in H0 and in N. Getting in touch with them will eventually provide you with some providers of American prototype models... Link to Fremo americaN and Fremo H0 USA.

    Best

    Joe
     

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