Over the last week or so, I've managed to dust off the trains and get them running again. I've been out of the hobby for the last year with other interests taking hold. Since I model the SP, I've managed to score some great deals on N scale brass over the years. I've managed to get the entire 4-8-8-2 AC series. I have 3 MT class and a 4-10-2. However there are other classes of locomotives that just haven't been made yet. I would love to see a 2-10-2 or a B-1. I've managed to scratchbuild them with compromises as well as other SP engines with road specific details. The hopes for most of these locomotives is to be made in brass and the major brass importers are not doing anything in N scale anymore. I think the last models were the 4-10-2 by Key and the Yellowstone by Benchmark. Is brass a dead medium for N scale? Will anything be produced in the future? It looks like Key is concentrating on O scale and the other importers are ignoring N. I don't think the lesser engines we were seeing in brass will ever be made in plastic, there just isn't a volume demand to generate the large runs required. Perhaps 3-D printing?
I have collected a lot of UP brass, and some SP brass over the years. I've sold off a lot of both because what became available in quality plastic mass-produced steam for the UP and SP (Athearn Big Boys & Challengers, Kato GS-4's). I also became a real stickler for keeping strictly to my time period and location, which is the 65 mile "helper district" on the Wasatch Grade between Ogden/Riverdale and Wahsatch (just west of Evanston), set in a 6 year period of 1949 through 1956. Over the last 30 years or so, I've seen the quality of plastic RTR motive power and cars vastly improve with the advent of CNC milling and the acceptance of aluminum molds in the injection molding facilities. This has greatly sped up the development of injection molded models as well as cut startup costs significantly. Now, when a mold wears out, you just chuck up a piece of aluminum in your CNC mill and cut a new one in a few days. When molds were made of tool steel, they took from a year to several years to cut...by hand...but lasted forever. Frankly, the new injection molded stuff is better than the brass import models in many respects. The detail is sharper and crisper, many of the on-model appliances are separately applied, and there is much road-specific detailing that is becoming common practice with many RTR model railroad companies. As a bonus, most new RTR motive power runs a lot better than the brass imports. Because the wages of skilled working people in countries like Korea and Japan are now equivalent or greater than here in the USA, the price of limited-run, hand-built models has steadily risen, and the brass imports' only advantage nowadays is exclusivity...not necessarily accuracy and finish as it was 20 years ago...especially in N-scale. Many RTR model manufacturers are taking advantage of technologies like metal etching and lost-wax casting to produce really excellent fine details on their RTR cars and engines, which easily rival the best stuff available in brass...take a look at Trainworx cars and the new Rapido passenger cars as good examples of cars detailed more extensively than equivalent brass cars would be or have been. Right now, the reason that brass imports for N-scale have mostly disappeared is because there wasn't any money to be made in it anymore. The price was becoming more than the N-scale market would support since we buy a lot more cars and engines than the larger scales do. $1,200 for a single engine might be okay for a collector, but I usually want several, so I had three OMI GTEL Turbines, three Key Big Boys and three brass Challengers...and I wanted more for my operating schedule on my layout. I couldn't afford any more, and they became unavailable. The brass Big Boys were pretty plain in the detail department, so I went on a campaign to superdetail them, but...they wouldn't pull worth a damn...only about a dozen cars, and I needed 30 cars and a caboose behind them. Now, that's when those models were selling brand new for between $600 and $800 apiece. The same things now wouldn't sell for less than $1,200 bucks. Suddenly, the market has shrunk and the importers and builders know this. So, very few brass imports for N-scale. I was lucky, and along comes Athearn, offering a really wonderful model of a UP Challenger...perfect for my location and time period...with DCC and SOUND no less! Next followed an excellent Big Boy. Didn't take me long to sell of all of my brass Big Boys and Challengers and use the profits to buy mo' Athearn DCC and sound equipped Big Boys and Challengers. If Kato or Athearn decide to produce an FEF-3, I'll do the same with my brass FEF's. Until then, I have three and I'm always on the lookout for more. However, injection molding, as developed as it is, has certain design and detail disadvantages over almost all casting processes because of the relief that's got to be designed into the parts, so they'll release from the metal molds. I think we've about exhausted any more significant advances in either design, manufacture or materials used in injection molds. These design limitation do not exist in 3D models produced using RP technology. The only problem with RP technology at the moment is resolution and materials and the manufacturing protocol to mass-produce products assembled and painted using RP prints. Model manufacturers are leery of new technologies and would rather stick with the cash flow that's tried and true. I believe we are in a transition period, just waiting for RP to reach its potential, and become more popular which will drive the price of the machinery and materials down. Custom builders are already starting to offer RP prints of engines and cars that will probably never be mass produced in N-scale. At the culmination of this technology, I think we'll see 3D modelers offering you a file (to buy), which you can put into your bench RP printer, and you'll pop out as many prints of that item as you want. There'll be a literal plethora of obscure engines, cars, and accessories (especially in N and Z-scale) available in 3D, just waiting for you to purchase the files, and either print them yourself or go to a printing service to have it done for you if you don't want to spend money on a Print-O-Matic Rapid Prototyper. Truth is, the technology is at hand, and if you want to pay for it, you can get shells and parts that rival injection molded parts. Shapeways, which is the intro almost everybody has into the RP world, has not seen fit to upgrade their printers for the ultra-detailed world, so we suffer a bit with spotty quality control, layering lines and bad orientation of parts from them. If you want to produce your own, you can get machines that use the Perfactory Process and material for less than 25 grand, or if you want a little larger Perfactory printer, that will print masters for you to create vulcanized rubber molds to inject wax into for lost-wax casting as well as more conventional prints, the price is around $135,000. The price will come down in the not-too-distant future, and rumors persist that more precise technologies are being used to produce much cheaper, but much more refined machinery and materials, which will easily allow RP prints of highly detailed surfaces as well as curved surfaces without layering lines that will be as good as injection molded parts, but without the limitations of injection molded parts (no parting lines, no flash, no relief). When that happens, I believe we'll see a resurgence of brass import models as highly accurate masters will be available in-house for those manufacturers who already can easily produce brass lost-wax investment castings. The price will come down because of much less labor involved to create highly detailed masters, and things such as boilers, cabs and other details that now are produced by etching and bending them up on jigs and fixtures and soldering major components together, will be accomplished just by casting them, with stand-off, but cast-on details, with some additional detailing provided by a few solder joints to stick separate castings and etchings onto the model-body. The main problem involved with doing your own on your benchtop Print-O-Matic RP Printer, will be the metal parts and electronics. However, printing in metals is possible today, but the surface quality is really bad. I expect that will change over time too, so you'll be able to print out things such as metal shafts, gears, chassis parts and weights, wheels and drivers...even electrical wipers and contacts. Eventually, you'll be able to print out the whole thing, but that'll be in a couple of decades. In the next five years or so, we'll see you being able to print out the plastic parts, but having to modify engine chassis to mount your super-detailed RP shell print/kit onto. So, yup...brass imports for N-scale are pretty much dead, with some notable exceptions. However, it's on its last gasp and new RP technologies will put the final nail in the brass import coffin when it finally matures and can give you everything the importers and makers can give you now, at a much better cost and level of accuracy and detail. Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be totally WRONG! Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
Ironically enough, just last week GHB Int'l announced that they're going to be doing an N scale brass PRR L1 2-8-2. Features to include - Traditional (100) and Modern (100) Locomotive Versions 4 cab numbers for each version Operation in DC with DCC ready provisions Motor Type: 5-Pole Can Skew Wound Armature & Brass Fly Wheel Smooth Quiet Mechanism for all Operating Speeds Tender Floor drilled with Speaker Holes for Sound High Quality Authentic PRR Painting and Lettering Schemes Golden White LED Headlight and Tender Reverse Light Constant Intensity Directional Lighting Highly Detailed and Accurately Modeled Detailed Locomotive Cab with Boiler Backhead and Cab Curtains Locomotive Cab Windows with Glazing Separately Applied Details such as brass bell, grab irons, ladders, etc. Hinged cab Deck Plate (Apron) between Locomotive and Tender Tender Coal Load Drawbar with minimum of 2 holes for Prototype and Long coupling Factory-installed Painted Crew Engineer and Fireman Figures Electrical Pickup on Locomotive and Tender Wheels No Traction Tires Low profile wheel contours Sufficient Locomotive Weight to pull 30 N scale freight cars Design for easy disassembly and reassembly for maintenance and access to electronics Couplers: (2) Microtrains #1015 or Compatible - Locomotive and Tender Recommended Minimum Radius: 9.75 inches All screws Phillips / Cross Point style Some Spare parts Wrench for Drive Rod screws included with each model 2 Piece Box - Typical for brass models with sponge foam inserts Anticipated about mid 2014 Made by an experienced Korean Company Price supposedly in the $600-$700 range, although that's still up in the air AFAIK. So, to quote Monty Python, not quite dead yet. Cheers, -Mark
Not dead yet, but this project will very interesting to watch. Hopefully being a PRR specific model won't stop it before it starts. Of course with a target price of $600-700 and delivery of mid-2014 - two things that probably won't happen, maybe the whole thing will just fizzle. Jason
With all of the following being true: some brass steamers regularly go for 1k-2k on ebay- esp PRR stuff. Even the absolutely crappy Centipede diesel goes for 1,000-1200 Good steam in plastic can run $400. Depending on how many they run (I guess 200?), I'd be surprised if they did not sell out at $600. Even $700 seems like a reasonable pricepoint In the past, how many brass steamers (and even most diesels until fairly recently): Were DCC ready had full lighting effects Not many. My assertion is that brass steam can probably command those prices-- IF it runs really well. Diesels are a bit different. Times have changed. Doing a diesel that might be fairly popular is dangerous since when/if it is done in plastic it could be/will be a disaster. Case: SD70ACe. Who would pay $700 for a brass SD70ACe now? I saw a BRASS SD70ACe go for about $175 a few months ago. People who paid $3500 for the full set must be crying. Example: Who would pay $700 for a brass GP9 phase 3-- where surely someone will do one one day in plastic. It is a reasonably popular loco. But rare unique diesels seem to do well. Like the Little Joe.
Usually brass locomotives are quite easy to convert to DCC. They are not plug and play but the motor is easy to isolate and wired decoders are easy enough to install. I just added a decoder to my Hallmark Santa Fe 4-8-4. For better electrical pickup, I did modify the tender trucks to pick up on all wheels. I used phenolic PC board cut to the same size as the brass "H" pieces that connect the brass side frames and inserted Kato passenger wheel sets between them.
Not to forget that U.S. buyers haven't had as much disposable income over the last 5 years and the manufacturing problems in the far East have made the demand for brass significantly less. And with how well the newer plastic steam runs...I have a brass SP AC-4 that I wish ran as well as some of my plastic steam (but IM AC-12's are JUST TOO DARN SLOW!!!!).
Send the AC-4 my way and I'll get it to run like a top. Granted, you have to be a tinkerer to get some of the brass to run well. I have an IM AC-12 and frankly, all of my brass ACs run better and pull harder than it does (half without traction tires). Unfortunatly, each one of them needed a new motor and some love to get the best running qualities out of them with the exeption of my AC-8 (ser 124). The 124 series are the best and run better than most Kato engines. I would like to see some more PRR stuff done in brass (or plastic for that matter). Even though I run SP, I would love to have a Q-1/2 or an S-1 to run as a novelty. They were some beautiful engines. It seems that PRR is popular in HO but very little is done in N. I like the medium and the heft of the brass over plastic offerings. I don't think plastic can touch the detail of my 4-10-2, Key did that good of a job.
We don't need brass, we just need Broadway Limited Imports to do in N scale what they have done in HO. Ever since they announced the N scale PRR M1 years ago they have produced a constant stream of HO steam from several roads regardless of the economic problems in the U.S. and manufacturing problems in China.
I do not believe that N-Scale Brass is dead. It may be dying in motive power, but rollingstock is still a great area for exploration. Sure, I have a vested interest. But only because I believe in what I preach.
...and you do a GREAT job, Bob. Still it isn't ready to run brass (but I am a several time return customer currently building one of your SP stock cars as I speak). The quality and detail of your kits however are second to none.
As I believed the original poster was referencing motive power, that is why my original comment. As for other rolling stock and accessories, if that is what he intended to include in the conversation, I agree with you it still has a place. At least for now.
Wow, after 10 years being into N scale diesel, I never knew that any N scale motive power was made in brass.:wideeyes:
I also agree. The stuff that Bob does with Traincat is amazing, and simply could not be done in anything other than nickle silver. I just installed CorelDRAW Graphics Suite and it won't be long until I've got several drawings to get etched for my UP specific needs, structures, lineside details and several cars (in combination with RP FUD or Perfactory). YUP! Brass is definitely NOT dead for other apps than motive power...and it's not completely dead yet there either. Cheers! Bob Gilmore
Jerry, aka O.C. Engineer, has a number of real fine Brass locomotives. Although, not a real rail fan of brass products I do like the bridges and other products produced by Train Cat and those infamous brass stoves and diesel locomotives.
