Grey One, I tend to agree with you in that Fox Valley has a proven track record of well detailed models and not cutting corners, and deliveries of a fairly consistent basis. So no negative speculation is necessary. Sure will be nice to have some quality Locomotive competition in the market:thumbs_up:
It was interesting hovering around Matt's booth in Portland listening to comments from both camps. There were those who were overjoyed that they would not have to shave molded grab irons off and try to match the paint before installing wire ones. "Someone is finally listening!" Then of course there were those who were disappointed. I suppose you can never please everyone. I guess the market will decide in the end which path makes the most folks happy.
All my pockets have holes in them... In any case, I count myself as one who is willing to scrape off cast-ons, etc., so I welcome the FVM approach. For those that don't, maybe some of the custom painters will offer a grab installation service for a modest fee. -Gary
And thus a new cottage industry is born. When I worked for a train store in Houston, we charged $5 to install all the detail parts on Kato Mikados. For a while there I was doing 3 or 4 a week. I got to where it took me about 15 minutes to do one locomotive.
Thought this hobby was called "MODEL RAILROADING" not "BUY IT AND RUN IT RAILROADING". IMO this is the part of the hobby that is dying. No one wants to "Model" there railroad. Personally the more "Modeling" I do the more satisfaction I get from the hobby. The #80's will be ready!!!!!!!!!!!!
Different folks have different skill levels in various areas. Some do awesome track work and scenery while come up short on micro detailing. Some prefer not to, or have physical reasons. I know guys who round up all their friends to help do their scenery because they are not satisfied with their own abilities. I have seen many super detailed locomotives running on plywood prairie layouts. Many of the Kato Mikados I detailed came in after the owner went through a frustrating and unsuccessful attempt at doing it themselves. Parts were often mangled or missing. Sometimes you do what you got to do in order to get where you want to be. Huh? Oh well....
Wow, that's painting everybody with a broad brush. I for one has to have the minute details installed for me because of a shaking problem in my left hand i have had since childhood. I even have my drop-in decoders installed. Am i any less a model railroader? I am using kato unitrack because it was easier for me to install and ballast, am i any less a model railroader? The point i'm trying to make here is don't degrade people who can't do or don't have the skills to do them. I will put up my railroad against anybodys for looks or operation. I am proud of what i have done and i am having allot of fun. I will be buying some of the Gevos but i will need somebody to install the handrails and such, if they come molded in it will save me a few bucks or i just may run them sans the parts. Dave
I am confused. While I understand your intended point I must be missing something. What is wrong with buying and running? Other than I am legally bind with tunnel vision, very poor acuity, and issues with color I consider my layout to be a kinetic sculpture. That said I truly admire a detailers dedication, skill and follow through. The painstaking research, overcoming of obsticals, muti-dicipline projects is very impresive.
I think what most are getting to is... If a near perfect prototypical loco with decoder and all the bells and whistles is gonna cost everyone $200.00 off the shelf...it would seem more logical to have the same loco...with a shell with the normal minimal 'prototypical' amenities...that a modeler who loves to tinker, or has to have everything on it...can add what he wants to it. Kinda like the way it is now. Those who dont need or dont want all them 'goodies' wouldnt have to pay $200.00 ( he may not have) for stuff that makes no difference to him/her but is now going to be standard on every locomotive. Afterall...like it or not...it's always easier in the long run to add things to a sub $70.00 locomotive then to take stuff off of a $200.00 + one. Now...if someone wants all them goodies but doesnt have the skills...he may end up paying "modeler so-so' to do all the work on his sub $70.00 locomotive...and he will still end up paying that $200.00 + total that he is willing to part with in the beginning....but we modelers who arent that obssesed with prototypical looking locos can still run the same stripped down basic loco for sub $70.00 !!! I do agree that some things should be 'standard equiptment' from the manufacturer on any locomotive. The contention will/would be...at what point do manufactures stop adding stuff to a 'basic locomotive'...and still keep the price down and affodable to those of us with shallower pockets. It's a fine line for sure. I just dont think it's necessary to be having $200.00 + absolutely perfectly prototypical locomotives that everyone has to pay for. I think this demanding that manufactures make locos as near to perfect as possible...cost to all of us be damned...is a slippery slope we are headed down in N Scale...JMO...thnxs. * I along with most...will give FVM the benifit of the doubt on the GEVO's till they actually come out...and yes...I will be checking the price first... ;-) .
Wow, for some reason, this rubs me all the wrong ways. Just. Wow. There are a lot of guys out there, several of whom have posted on here who obviously greatly benefit from having the fine points done already by the manufacturer. Count me in on that also. I HATE DETAILING AND PAINTING ENGINES OR CARS. There, LOL, I got that off my chest. My forte is scenery and wiring and track. My experience is one mans (perceived) weakness, (mine are real, LOL) is another mans strengths. So we all send our stuff to the guys who can paint, or go over and help the guys who need help on this or that, or wire this or that, or plaster this or that. So I ask you Mr. Midniteflyer, where is the loss in the hobby just because engines are getting better, not worse, as times go by? 15 years from now, these will be the dark ages for N scale, and we will wonder how we ever were satisfied with this cr@p?? I challenge you to show me where the modeling has gone to, show me where we are any LESS modelers than you simply because we don't do this or that? I say that there are more ways and opportunities these days than ever in the past for more people to enjoy this great hobby than ever before, and it is only getting better out there. And for those of you who do this hobby, and have expressed the conditions that make it hard for you to do certain things, I say more power to you, enjoy, thats what it's all about.
And George, might I suggest this, that Bachman and in some ways Lifelike and Athearn supply some of the entry level stuff. But when you get into the realms of this new engine, well, folks will pay to get what they want. In a way, I would say that this is a good thing, in that builders know that if they build it, and build it right, they will sell it. I'm not so sure it's a "slippery slope" in this case, but maybe the scale taking it's rightful place as a serious scale next to HO....now about Z scale....LOL...thats another topic...tongue:
Oii !!! :tb-rolleyes: I am not talking "entry level stuff". Yes...some will 'pay to get what they want'...I dont debate that...but why should everyone else pay for what they dont want in the same locomotive. I guess ya just dont get where I'm going with this. If ya want all the bells and whistles...put em on as aftermarket....you will still end up paying that 200.00 either way. Selling a decent, dare I say 'basic', locomotive at a price EVERYONE can afford helps the manufacturers as well as the hobby (n scale). I always believed N scale is/was a serious scale...I just dont see where it has to be as expensive as HO and other scales to hold that honor. I also believe a lot of guys are bailing on HO and going N because of the cost factor associated with HO. There is a whole lotta "Money talks all others can walk" attitude in the other scales...and now it's beginning to infest n scale. I just hate seeing that happen. I run my Katos and Atlas' right along with my LL. I...along with many others...just aint gonna pay out the nose to do so...and we shouldnt have to...JMO. .
Eeks, I take a break from this thread and now look what happened. The ultimate debate of detail/quality vs cost arises. Forgive me if some of my assumptions are wrong, I quickly skimmed through the jist of things. It seems we're being presented with a super-detailed offering at an above average price (is this even confirmed yet?), except certain features will not be exactly prototypical to specific road names. If the above is accurate, let me break it down into my opinion on the matter. This will be FMV's first running locomotive in the N scale market with, as stated, Kato and Atlas having already set a high standard. Unlike Bachmann, who willingly produces products targeting lowest cost senarios, it seems FMV wishes to distinguish themselves as a high quality locomotive manufacturer. If this is true, which do you think they would be more concerned about. Having a modest priced first locomotive that everyone can afford, or sacrafice some cash strapped customers to be certain their first offering is a solid product? After all, reputation is a big thing. If it turns out that the GEVO runs flawless and has super detail, we'll all be certain to watch their next offerings with a close eye. Ond once they have our attention, a modest priced offering can enter the table, having a few detail sacrafices. For road specific features, yes, it's a big irony to have super detail, but incorrect road specifics. However, keep in mind, though they may be willing to let some cost savings slide, there has to be a line somewhere. Also, which is easier/cheaper from the manufacturing stand point? Installing super detailed items such as grab irons and such, or creating specific molds for specific roads? Think of it as an either or situation, but with out the benefit of the doubt. Either they give us road specifics with basic detail, in which case we'd have to performe that ourselves, or they give us super detail, and make us modify the road specifics. Also, and probably the bigger reason, from a bystanders perspective, which looks better. A close to perfect model with perfect details, or a completely perfect model with molded details? Road specifics are an aquired taste, but anyone can tell the difference between a molded or separately applied element. Everything in our hobby goes to the tune "You can't please everyone." But I've said it before and I'll say it again. We should just be lucky to have these offerings!
my post was not about bashing fvm. i'm glad matt took all the risk and investment to bring out gevos. i was/am only disappointed because the cp rail engines most likely will not have the correct numberboards. this will have an impact on my order for sure. cp roughly has 400 ac-4400, currently i have around 100 of them. all different numbers of course. one day i will have all. probably. i also intend to have one of every roadnumber of the gevos cp rail has (this is why i asked for unnumbered units). but only if the model is as close to the prototype as possible. incorrect positions of the numberboards is not as close as possible. therefore nowhere near a complete roster for me. maybe one or two. instead of dozens.
this loco could be the next kato or the next bachmann.... i say we just wait and see. and if they dont make the version you want then dont buy any. as for me if they make a NS unit i'm all for it cant afford the $160.00 there getting on the bay:thumbs_down:
