I posted this on Trains.com and it is on my blog. I think it is an interesting topic that you may find interesting as well. There was a tremendously interesting thread on Trains.Com yesterday about whether foam on our railroads constituted a 'illegal' safety situation. Why it was locked so quickly baffles me. But the larger topic of safety issues on our railroads is, I think a very important one. Something we should take seriously and make sure that we minimize any risks our layouts may pose to our family and of course ourselves. What are some of the ares where we could or should be paying close attention, as we build and expand our hobby presence in our homes? Street rodders have voluntary annual automobile inspection programs where their street rods are checked to make sure you are not driving a suicide ride. Perhaps the NMRA or our local clubs cold implement a program where a team of railroaders visits a fellow's layout and gives things a good once over looking for safety and fire hazards. Personally, I've been surprised when my Rod failed inspection only to find out that I had missed some critical item. I'd welcome an objective look at my railroad and train room from a safety and fire perspective. The program would be entirely voluntary, if you don't want to be inspected, you don't have to be. Thoughts? Joe Joe Daddy: Safety Inspection program
I think this is a good idea. Model railroading is such a multifaceted hobby that often we have folks that are outstanding modelers but wiring is something they muddle through, possiblly cutting corners safety-wise in the process...whether they realize it or not. Having a few "friends" do a cursory check on things could not be a bad thing. I think the big problem with this is: liability. If your crack inspection crew signs off on a layout and it burns to the ground the next day, there could be trouble. At very least, you might need to get a certified electrician and/or home inspector (ideally to volunteer their time) to be part of the process. (potentially adding $$$ to the equation) With vehicles, you have "what will get the vehicle inspected" versus "what would pass inspection but still is not safe". Since there is no formal "layout inspection laws" then I think liability would increase with such a program. (and for the record, I hate that attorneys have eliminated "doing the right thing" from our society, but it's no longer possible to help anyone out anymore without almost guaranteed consequences. But I digress.) I know I've seen layout wiring (including high voltage house wiring in the mix) that makes me cringe. I don't know a whole lot about wiring safety but I know enough to identify a bad idea when I see one. With regards to foam, I am guessing that generally you would not want any of the foam exposed...i.e. it should be painted, even bottom surfaces and holes drilled for wiring, correct? I definitely see this as a good topic for discussion.
You really shouldn't be baffled. The moderators let the thread run 43 posts so it wasn't that quick. The "signal to noise ratio" was increasing, with little in the way of real facts being presented, and the tone of the posts appeared to be heating up. Didn't really surprise me to see it locked. Regards Ed .
Yeah, I was a bit surprised, but not too much. That thread had degenerated into rants about government regulation, which will usually get a thread locked. Really, though, I don't need any more inspections. MR-wise, probably the most dangerous thing most of us do is drive to the LHS, anyway. Either that or forgetting to unplug the soldering iron.
I would think that it would be what’s in/around our workbenches that would draw the most concern in such an inspection. “You clean you’re track with WHAT?” :we-eek:
I take issue with the initial premise of this topic and offer a different perspective. - First, a street rod can have 2-3 hundreds of horsepower, weigh 2-3 thousands of pounds, attain speeds of well over 70 MPH, and requires extreme skill to build and operate for the safety of the operator and all in the immediate vicinity. Whereas a model railroad is an immobile passive assembly of wood, plaster, paint, and other inert materials that is operated within the confines of one's own home or club house. So comparing the construction and operation of a model railroad to that of a street rod is illogical and unfair, except that the intelligence, skill, and labor of the builder/operator is required in both cases. - Secondly, assuming that something MIGHT occur with a model railroad (or any other system) does not automatically mean that its building and operation MUST be regulated and inspected. If a hobbiest is concerned with his/her skills in a certain area of construction or operation, then that person should react to those concerns and ask for help, as many persons unskilled in specific areas have done here on the TrainBoard and other forums, and hopefully will continue to do so.
haha inspector said "you clean your track with what" Hillbilly said "I recon i says i cleans me tracks with some good oll Diesel fuell it really adds some autenticity to da layout hu'thu't" you should start a thread on that "Layout Safty" i know i know "What in the world" is what you are thinking but you never know the reason your pet passed away could be because of a paint or chemical you used on your layout and we all can share ideas on how to keep your layout fatality causing free i dont want to loose my Lucy the Labradoodle and nether would you want to loose your pet beause of some dangerous fumes coming off of the paint you use on your roads right and you dont wand some toxin to start growing in your lungs because of some toxic gas in the air you are breathing down in your hidaway right ok now i will stop me and my freind have motor mouthes wen it comes to computers aaarrrgg here i go again
Ed, Thanks for sharing your perspective. It was most interesting in that actual facts about foam and the dangers it may or may not present were beginning to emerge. With regard to escalation. IMHO, when someone becomes uncivil in a civilized debate, deal with that person(s) individually, a topic like that could legitimately extend for months, who cares? Locking the thread for fear of what might happen seems arbitrary. We certainly see some threads on forums go on for years and their value may be only of a social nature. Just my 2 cents, Joe
Hank, I always appreciate your thoughtful responses. :star: My street rod was about 450 horses and ran well over 130. But a fire in my basement caused by my layout could easily cost the lives of my family and could do as much or even cause more pain and suffering than a hot rod might cause in a crash. While thinking about this topic I've added three todo items to my layout list. Install two fire extinguishers at my layout room doors. Install a smoke alarm and wire a master power off switch that allows me to remove power from the layout from the entrances. An inspection by one or two of my club members might add another thing or two to the list. Stuff I've never even thought about. Certainly any such program would of necessity be totally voluntary. Just my 2 cents, Hope all is well on the Gulf! Joe
Joe, you make my point, that we each take responsibilty for own actions and shortcomings, and respond and/or ask for help accordingly. Thereby gaining knowledge and protecting those for whom we have accepted responsibilty. BTW, thanks for asking of the Coast and its recovery. Our economy is still having difficulty balancing the significant rise of housing costs after Katrina against the slow or stagnant increase in wages for much of the low income population. However, there are bright spots. This week some 2000 volunteers from all 50 States and several Countries participated in a Jimmie & Rosalyn Carter Habitat For Humanity Building Blitz across the Coast. According to this evening's news, 48 homes have been completed over the past 5 days, starting from bare cleared lots and staged materials on Monday. This, in spite of heavy rains totalling about 3" yesterday morning and early today.....truly magnificent!!!! Sadly, we still have about 3000 families living in temporary FEMA trailers or mobile homes awaiting "affordable" housing to become available, or for insurance and mortgage monies to become available so they can start rebuilding their homes. Most estimates are that it will be 5-7 years before the Coast's economy regains its balance and starts growing again.
Doug A. mentioned about "exposed foam" and wiring, That brings me to question.I just finished a 40 foot shelf extension on my layout and used pink foam, drilled thru for my power leads and ran them to my junction blocks mounted to the wood supports is this "safe"? ......
I don't visit other model railroad sites very often, I can't hold my own here!:tb-biggrin:I have learned a little bit about foam and fire,Bad JUJU, but it really really comes down to an electrical short or a spontaneous combustion thing. Adequate insulation and good houskeeping. I do like the idea of a master power off switch, and a fire extinguisher(ABC) big enough to do something with. How long can you hold your breath? How long can you keep your face in front of a hot BBQ grill.If you're going to fight, one of those pop bottle sized things ain't gonna' get you far. You'da been better off using that time to call 911 or getting a better plan together. FIRE is the TIME for OVERKILL. A few simple rules, consientiously(sp,I guessed), enforced will give you peace of mind when you tie up for the night. Thanks for thinking of all of us, be safe IS the watchword.
I commend Joe for bringing up the issues about safety. It made me look around. My wiring has been inspected by my son-in-law, a master electrician. Thumbs up there. My layout is constructed of foam, used like plywood. Acceptable to me, since the room is isolated at the far end of the garage, and firewalled from the rest of the garage. And there's nothing above it. Like others have mentioned, there's not a lot in there that could start a fire. The adjacent two stalls of the garage, however, are a potential disaster. Spurred by this thread, I just went out and counted about 100 spray cans, and gallons of lacquers, thinners, and other nasty flammable stuff. Besides two cars, each with potentially 17 gallons of gasoline. Now I have two industrial fire extinquishers, the three-foot high models, but there's no way I'm going to fight a fire in there. The garage is firewalled from the main house, but I'd be dead meat trying to hold down a blaze there. So, this morning I fired up my old junk truck, and bought enough material for a "paint shed" out back. I guess I'll be building it tomorrow. I've dealt with fire in the house just once. We had a grease fire from overheated oil in a pan. It probably took me five seconds to slap a cover over the pan. One of my daughters, who was cooking, got severely singed, and the soot on the ceiling was incredible. Those five seconds seemed like a lifetime. I urge everyone here to take safety as their first task! It doesn't impinge on your modeling time. It just makes it better.
As any of you know who know me, I am very serious about safety, having been seriously injured at work. Safety at home is really no different than anything one does in the workplace. Model railroading is no exception. My biggest concern is with fumes produced with chemicals, paints, and even cutting foam. Power tools of all sorts are also a major concern. How many of you actually wear eye protection when using a Dremel? How about with a hobby knife? Can you really say you have adequate air flow to keep harmful fumes away from your lungs..and the lungs of others in your household? How close is the nearest fire extinguisher to your layout and workbench? Is the right type? I can list safety questions and concerns till the cows come home on any subject, but safety comes down to one critical component: YOU. I was injured in the workplace where such injuries usually occur. It changed my life forever. Can you imagine if your hobby seriously hurt you?
I think the original point is a good one. I think a voluntary layout checking is probably a good idea, and if someone thinks it's too much "nosin' in other people's business" they can simply not take part. I get concerned about hot wiring, and not just with layouts. What I try to do is keep an eye open and use best practices as much as I can in wiring layouts. If my hand notices a hot connection somewhere I shut down the layout and take a look. Good joints and connections will not typically build up heat caused by bad connections. It's the resistance that causes this heat, and a good connection should be low on resistance. I, personally, would NOT put anything more than a track drop through layers of foam without some sort of additional protection. My NTrak club's home layout has a master power switch that is always to be turned off upon leaving. I also, probably because I am a licensed home inspector in my state and I therefore have seen really BAD practices employed, tend to keep enough smoke alarms around and I also have fire extinguishers at different locations around the house. These fires can get going so quickly once they start. As far as V.O.C.'s and off-gassing, I would recommend that V.O.C. application be done with plenty of ventilation and that if you're worried about off-gassing you might want to get MSDS sheets for as many things you are using in your layout as you can, keeping in mind that people have different sensitivities. If a liquid, spray, or gel has a smell that makes me wrinkle my nose even I tend to keep it for use on a day when I can apply it outside. I wouldn't worry too much about getting sued. If you are offering some helpful hints to a friend but not trying to stand on real or imagined qualifications, and not charging professional rates for your services, you should be okay. In my line of work, we end up getting involved in lawsuits sometimes, but really, the ones that most people stick to are the ones where someone did something really poorly and not in accordance with their duties, obligations, or commonly accepted practices, but then again in construction a lot of these duties, obligations, and commonly accepted practices are laid out pretty black-and-white. Good luck, Adam
To continue on from Adam, I think a majority of what we do on our layouts should come down to common sense and an understanding what you are dealing within your homes. MSDS's are available for materials used in the construction of layouts and wiring is straight forward on the secondary side of the circuits. For the primary side, if you are not comfortable and familiar in wiring the mains side (dependant on local codes/laws/requirements) of circuits have a licenced electrician do the work and test and certify it before handing it over. Double check all installation work regardless. Hank, are you suggesting my layout not only doesn't require extreme skill to build and operate, but more importantly won't make over 70mph?
I do need to say that we mods and admins at TB don't comment on other forums' actions. It's hard enough keeping this forum under control.:tb-biggrin: And we admins do talk to one another. We are all in this together, for model railroading's behalf.
Pete, Thanks for the kind words. The dialog on Trainboard has been quite valuable to me personally. I'd not thought about the spray cans, must have 30 or 40 in my train room, got to go somewhere safer. Oh my gosh, my train room is right under our bedrooms. mg: The more you guys cogitate and talk about this the more I have to do. Grace and peace, Joe
Pete and team, My apology if I've stepped across the line of impropriety. I can assure you that my focus is only on the issue at hand, helping to keep our hobby from causing any harm to our families and homes! Best regards, Joe
Joe; If you stepped across any line I missed it. I think you've done a great service to the model railroading community by raising this issue. I had missed the original thread on the other site before it was locked, but read it after seeing Joe's thread referencing it. The discussion of foam was raised by someone whose apartment was subject to fire inspections and had been ordered by the inspector to remove his layout, as foam insulation not covered by drywall is some kind of hazard. It was speculated that the hazard was toxic smoke when the foam burns or smolders or whatever it does in a fire. I find this rather upsetting, as I've just finally gotten around to special ordering that 4x8 sheet of foam so illusive here in S. CA for the small layout I'm starting. I spent $27 for a 1 inch sheet. As I'm building this layout for a "how to" article, I may have to forget the blue foam and go with the more expensive Woodland Scenics foam made specifically for layouts. I don't want to be telling beginners to use something that represents a health hazard. The Woodland Scenics foam apparently doesn't emit toxic smoke, as the recommended way to cut it is with a hot wire cutter. My sister used to work in architecture and interior design. According to her the white foam like Woodland Scenics uses was the medium of choice for the architectural modelers she used to work with. Best!
