I have operated on several large layouts, using a variety of methods for routing cars from one location to another. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages, but I have become disenchanted with these methods for a variety of reasons, primarily related to the hours of preparation/set up necessary between each operating session. I've thought of a system that takes less preparation time between sessions and would like feedback from anyone about this approach, especially from individuals who have tried something similar. Instead of making car cards and waybills for every one of my 700+ cars and going through turning all of them between sessions, and instead of spending hours locating misplaced cars and reconciling them with a computer generated switchlist, and instead of making up switchlists by hand and arranging cars before every session, I would make up industry cards designating either the car type or the reporting marks/number of the specific car(s) that can be accepted at each of an industry’s spots. I have about 100 industries with a total of about 200 industry tracks on my layout, most with multiple spots. The yardmaster for any of the 8 yards on my layout would have a master classification list of what trains passing through his yard serve which industries or interchange tracks, and which cars could be taken to which industries or other RR destinations by that train. Each YM uses the master classification list for his yard to classify any car that comes to his yard on the correct track for that train. The YM or a hostler blocks the cars just prior to departure, or the operator does so at the first convenient spot along his route. Every train would have a master switchlist that lists the industries, interchanges, and sidings in order served, and lists which cars could potentially be left at each spot alphabetically. (YMs would also be able to add cars to the master switchlist with instructions for special handling.) Operators check off which cars on the list they have in their train. If any cars in their train or encountered along their route are not on the master switchlist and were not added by the YM, they are to be taken to the yard at the end of the route. In this way the system can be self-healing if cars are misplaced due to operator error, YM error, or between session car movements. (Outbound trains encountering misplaced cars in industries would take them to staging, and inbound trains take misplaced cars from staging or industries to the 7 smaller RR yards modeled on the layout. Cars misplaced in the smaller RR yards would be routed by the local YM {in most cases on my layout that would also be the operator for the train} to the big yard on the layout, for handling by the big yard’s YM or by the Layout Superintendent: Me.) Operators would pick up any car they come to, and would use the checked off switchlist to direct their set outs. Set outs at interchanges might be directed by RR names (e.g., Interchange XYZ takes all Rock Island cars not otherwise assigned to an industry along this train’s route) or by specific car number. Preparations for an operating session would include: 1. Printing out the master classification list for the big yard’s YM and a master switchlist for each of the 22 trains that involve switching (but none would need to be printed for the 33 trains that just move cars from one yard to another without switching along the way) 2. Ensuring the printed switchlists are secured to the layout map with the proper train’s route highlighted, and the train’s CLIP Manual (Car Location and Industry Profile Manual) with maps of each station and industry along the train’s route and information about where to spot set outs. 3. Resetting live loads as needed 4. Returning the loaded and empty unit coal trains to their proper place of origin. 5. Addressing any layout, loco, or rolling stock maintenance identified by operators during or since the last operating session 6. Cleaning locomotive wheels Is this method of handling car movements similar to any others?…I’d like to learn what advantages or disadvantages were encountered on other layouts when such a system was implemented. Are there some potential problems with such a system that I should address before implementation? Thanks in advance for any assistance on this project.
Hello Dave, I cought myself reading your post 3 times, but I am not sure that I fully understand how the elements of the system play together. As far as I understood you plan to have 3 main elements: Industry Cards: Stay with Industry, describe what cars are "allowed" Yard Switchlist: Stay at Yard, describes what trains and industries are served by the yard Train Switchlist: Stay with train, describes the industries served Correct so far? How would a yardmaster know taht a specific car goes into train A and not B? If the Yard Switchlist gives instruction by car type and roadname, would not all cars of the same type and name always go to the same train / industry? All UP Boxcars or Cargill Hoppers would end up at the same industry? If there is more than one industry / train for a car: How to decide? Or has every car type a unique destination? Would not a yardmaster need to learn all industry locations and the associated "allowed" cars by heart? Or would this be part of the yard switchlist? Cheers Dirk
Would the cars switched into an industry switching train be placed in order of industry by the yard, or is the local crew going to have to dig out all the cars scattered through his train to get cars for a particular industry? I think that no matter what type of system you use, if you are going to conduct "operations", it's going to take a bit of prep time. I've got about 2800 cars that I will be dealing with, and the layout will be able to support about 1600 at any given time. So I know no matter what, prep time will take time. I'll probably only have a few sessions a year, so I would have plenty of time to set things up. I also am going to pick up where I left off from the previous session, so mainly industry paperwork and some staging will be all I really need to worry about.
There was a car card system I liked. Believe it was published back in the 1960's, in Model Railroader. I have operated using it, on a layout or two. It does not require any work between sessions. You can simply pick up where the previous work stopped. This is what I will be using. Anyone familiar with it? Boxcab E50
Boxy, Are you talking about the four destination way bills? You use them with car cards with slots in them. It seems fairly self fixing. If a car gets lost on the layout you just send it to the yard to get reclassified. No need to reset anything. PPuin, The initial post described what boxy seems to be talking about, but I never thought there was any need for resetting anything between sessions. I was under the impression that the operators flip waybills during a session as they come to pick up cars and deliver new cars. Perhaps you are over operating the system. Unit trains get one card since they do not need to be switched out. I am sure you have a couple of those in your fleet. So there is a savings in paperwork. For simple, there is always sequential train scheduling with simple instructions, like "deliver four coal cars to mine", that is about as simple as it gets. I read the initial post and sort of got bogged down in the description. If it's that hard to explain, it can't be that easy to use. Lastly, perhaps if the operations are to complicated, your layout is too big for you.
Too complicated? I am not sure about "too complicated." I know that my layout is not too complicated for me, but I built it. I am learning that for others, it is complicated. You have to follow the switchlists and you have to pick up where you left off from the previous session. My friend calls it "The Monster," because he feels it is so complicated. So..."complicated" may be in the eye of the beholder. I know that I am not yet convinced to abandon all my development and start over. (I have some other factors that make it workable.) I think that as long as you are chasing cars, it is going to take some time. That is, reporting marks and numbers. I think it has to be operated as car types, car colors, or road names to be simplified. Here is my example from one method the Belmont Shore club used. The premise is that all cars are removed from the layout after each session. Everyone brings their cars and puts them on the layout. (You have to have owner marks on the bottom of the cars to do this.) You take your engines and your cars and run a scheduled train with certain stops to be made. The dispatcher deconflicts trains. Train switchlists consists of "UP boxcar dropoff in xxx town", or "NYC flat car dropped in XXX town", or "SP gondola picked up in XXX town. " If those cars are not in your train or not in the town, just go to the next one. That's it. Everyone runs trains and switches some. There are dedicated town switchers, too, that run all session. That is the simplest system that I have seen.
Flash, I like the simplicity. Do you have a more detailed write up about how that club does it? One easy thing I was in Tony Keoster's book was a simple manner of East bound trains stopped and switced out car for car (one box car for one box car), only taking even numbered cars. West bound trains only pick up odd numbered cars.
That's the one! It works very well. If anyone knows of the specific MR issue with that article? Boxcab E50
On my "medium" sized layout I intend to: 1) Randomly put trains together, (probably using my hands), with what ever I feel like running that day 2) Decide what needs to go where 3) Get them there I imagine it will eventualy get more like: Industry X needs 3 covered hoppers and two box cars a day Industry Y needs 2 flat cars once a week and 2 box cars daily These will start out in a train from Where Ever dropping them off at t the Grandure yard I think I'll be able to program an Excel sheet to easily randomise a given day.
I operate my layout with car cards & waybills. A spread sheet gives the information what sort of goods it ships or receives and which car is needed. With this information I create my 4-position-waybills and operate the layout (mostly by myself). Wolfgang
I remember that article from way back, but no longer have copies going back that far. Here is an article from the website of the St Louis "Gateway" chapter of NMRA describing something very similar. http://www.opsig.org/primer/guide/ In fact, the whole site has a lot of interesting information. http://www.gatewaynmra.org/articles/car-card-resources.htm Regards Ed
Dirk: Thanks for investing the time and effort to help me with this. Yes. 1. Industry cards are to be posted on the fascia boards. 2. Yard masters (or any operators classifying cars in that yard as they set up a train to leave that particular yard) have a master list for that yard. The yard master list has all the cars that would go to industries served by trains leaving that yard. The cars would be listed alphabetically by reporting marks and each car would have 2 destinations, one indicating the track it goes to when empty and a second indicating its classification track when loaded. 3. Operators carry the master switchlist for their train (and a map of the layout with their train route highlighted). As I've been thinking about this, it has dawned on me that I need to specify a particular car...not just a car type...for exactly the reason you give. And also because I'd end up having way too many possible destinations noted after each car listed on the master yard switchlist. Although on some of my train routes, every car type would, indeed, have a unique destination, I see now that I probably will need to narrow my options to specific car reporting marks rather than using generic car type alone...for the reasons listed above. All such information would be included in the master yard switchlist. I appreciate your input...Thanks.
Dave, I'm trying to follow this thread. If you will, let me ask you a question. If you never lost a car on your layout, what would you still not like about what you are now doing? A follow-up: if lost cars are a big part of the problem, suppose your operators found out immediately that they were spotting a car in the wrong place or the railroad's brass found out shortly after the train left, would that make a substantial difference? I don't have suggestions to make at this point, just some questions.
Engineer Rick: The YM or a hostler blocks the cars just prior to departure, or the operator does so at the first convenient spot along his route. I don't mind putting in some prep time for an operating session...what I want to avoid is spending 3 or 4 long evenings in operations preparation alone, plus another 3 or 4 long evenings making sure 22 scale miles of track, locos, rolling stock, DDC equipment, etc is completely ready for problem-free operations (or as close to "problem-free" as Pete Nolan's train gods will let me get).:teeth: When I had 2 sessions a year, the prep time seemed proportionate-- not overly excessive. Now that I'm operating at least 1 per month and sometimes have layout visitors 2 or 3 other times during the month, it feels like all I'm doing is operations prep and I have no other time for modeling, scenicing, tinkering with locos, etc. Sooooo...thus the search for a more efficient alternative. As far as using some of the operations paperwork left over from not being run in previous sessions...I'm already doing that. I've never even come close to running all the trains that I set up, (although we've been getting closer every session, and I suspect we'll finally do so sometime next year.) 1600 cars on the layout at one time...do you have car cards or switchlists for all cars not assigned to specific unit trains? About 40% of the 700+ cars on my layout move to/from specific industries. The rest (except for 2 unit coal trains) move point to point from one yard or interchange or staging to another yard/interchange/staging. Edit: It is probably closer to 60% of my cars that go to or from an industry during a single cycle of operation...and until we get better at it...it takes more than a single evening to go through all 55 trains. Thanks for your comments, Rick. The blocking issue is one I've only recently started to address. How do you handle it on your layout?
Perhaps...But I only have 22 out of 55 trains that have switching responsibilities, the rest are 31 freights and 2 unit coal trains that move from one location to another as a block of 8 to 15 cars. I don't generate switchlists for those 33 other trains. Switching trains set out between 8 and 15 cars and pick up another 8 to 15 cars, so--if my math is working ;>D--that's still the majority of my cars that need some sort of method to guide their movements. I'm just looking for an alternative that takes less time than my current method of hand-generating switch lists for 450 cars. On my previous layout I developed an MS Access program for 450 cars that took the destinations from the digital version of a 4-cycle car card and generated switchlists for about 3 dozen trains. On the present layout, I have about 300 more cars (none of which has been entered into the Access system yet) so I've resorted to hand-generating the 22 switchlists.
Wolfgang: Thanks for the link to your website. I downloaded the Excel Wookbook for generating the cards. I've seen variations on what you have in the Car Card and Waybill Yahoo Group, of which I've been a member for a couple years. Despite my present search for alternatives, I suspect I'll eventually come back to some version of a 4-cycle car card.
A "Paperless" System to Move Cars A modeler in Springfield Illinois has a beautifully detailed point to point N-Scale layout about 2 scale miles long. He developed what he calls the AlphaNumeric Car Movement System to guide switching in the various industries and interchanges along his mainline. At every trailing point industrial siding along his mainline, he refers to an industry card posted nearby which tells him what type of cars may be set out at that industry and how many may be spotted on the siding. If the siding is empty, he looks within his train to find the first car that matches this industry's car type(s) as indicated on the industry card, and then sets out the car on the siding. If the siding takes more than one car or car type, then he continues setting out the first car in his train that meets the criteria until the siding is full or he has no more cars that match the industry's criteria. If there is a car(s) already on the siding, he looks within his train to find the first car that matches the spotted car's car type. If he has one that matches, he then compares the reporting marks of the car in his train with the reporting marks of the car on the industry's siding. If the last digit of the car in his train is higher, then he picks up the spotted car and sets out the car in his train. If the last digit of the car in his train is lower, then he keeps the car in his train and the spotted car stays at the industry. If the two numbers are identical, then he pulls the spotted car and leaves that spot of the siding empty. Repeated comparisons will eventually result in sidings becoming filled with cars having high last digits. At that point, the trains change their criterion and swap out the cars based on which car has the LOWEST last number instead of on which has the highest one. Empty industry spots would still get a car from the train, and identical last numbers means neither car can stay. He also has the option of swapping cars depending on whether the last digit of the car in the train is even or if it is odd (evens are spotted on the siding, odds are pulled out). Comparisons could also be made based on which RR initials come first (or last) alphabetically. Interchanges are swapped out on a 1-to-1 basis of exchanging car types (one box car in for each box car out). Or on the basis of alphanumeric comparisons. This method is easy to learn, easy to implement, requires NO paperwork, requires NO set up time between sessions, is self-healing, is extremely forgiving of errors, never wears out, is unbreakable, AND IS FREE.
Most of the traffic will be through trains built in the main yard on my layout. Solid blocks of cars going to the same destination. The locals that switch various online industries will be blocked in order of industry in the train. There will be a card for each car. I have a master car routing list that will provide info for each car card, including which industry to spot the car at when it goes on a local. Each industry will have a "mailbox" for the crew so they will receive instructions on where to spot a particular car, if needed. There will only be a couple unit coal trains which run through. There will be 2 trailer trains (one each way) that stop and drop 1/2 their train on one track and pick up another track to fill the train back to length. The yardmaster will be the one using the information on the car cards (waybills). He can then generate a switch list for the yard crews so they know what car goes where. He also generates the list of the train for the outbound crew. Through trains really don't have to worry about what is in their train, just where they are taking it. Local crews will be responsible for placing cards at the industry (in the "mailbox") and taking the cards for the cars they pick up.
I'm being overwhelmed here. I need to take some time this weekend to read this thread carefully! :thumbs_up:
