Looking for some advice from the experts here... I have a dogbone style layout using Kato Unitrack with a double crossover in the shank. I have PSX-AR's supplying power to each of the loops, which are isolated from the shank by insulated rail joiners, and a PSX1 providing circuit protection to the shank, which includes the double crossover. The Kato double crossover has contiguous outer rails, but the inner rails through the switches are isolated in the center of the crossover. That is the 'as built' configuration of the double crossover. I have the PSX-AR's jumped from J6-1 to J6-2, per the DCC Specialties manual, for use with my NCE Power Cab to set the current trip value to 1.27 amps - I did this instead of setting CV49 to 01. Prior to running my locomotive I confirmed the proper power-up operation of the PSX-AR's (both D12 & D7 LED's indicating power, and the D6 LED off). Now, when I run my train through the double crossover so it's set so there is no short created - switches set for 'straight through' operation - I have no operational issues. But when I throw the switches so the locomotive travels through the crossover to travel from one set of rails to the adjacent set of rails, the loco stops in the middle of the crossover and the indications I get at the PSX-AR's are flashing LED's at D7, D6 & D12. I'm pretty desperate for some insight into why this isn't working! I have been fighting this reverse loop issue for months now and can't seem to get any traction on what I'm not doing right. Looking forward to your insights!
Take a look at this... I think you need reversers or Tam Valley frog juicers on the crossing frogs. Sumner
Take a look at this blog post I made a few years ago with a similar track layout you what you have. http://palisadecanyonrr.blogspot.com/2015/05/experimenting-with-reverse-loops.html I have also had it where there was not good isolation from a Kato insulated joiner so that would be something to check.
Sumner, I can't access that link, but I went to YouTube and looked up Tam Valley Frog Juicers and am watching some videos right now... I have reversers... two of them. One for each loop at the end of the shank. In the meantime, riddle me this... My loco will pass throught the dbl crossover if the two adjacent lines entering and exiting it are NOT connected in a loop that returns the loco back in the opposite direction. Would that make sense if the frogs were dead? It seems that ONLY if the crossover is used as a conduit to a reversing loop that the system fails.
Brad (do I have your name right?), Your layout with the double crossover is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, except that I'm using the Kato 20-210 Double Crossover device instead of four individual turnouts... space being a premium on a door. And I'm using the same DCC Specialties devices you are. But, your layout diagrams are MUCH cooler than my 'stick man' diagrams, lol! I'm using the simplified Reversing Dogbone layout to trouble shoot the process, but the layout that I'm trying to get this to support is the San Gabriel Line (my grandson's layout, so it's named after him), which is, in essence, the same thing; except it's a folded dogbone with my sidings, spurs, and yard, in the shank. I will definitely be testing those insulated rail joiners, becasue there's something that's been bugging the crap outta me about the fault I'm experiencing! When the loco passes through the middle of the dbl crossover, it stalls... and I get flashing LED's lighting up all over both of the AR's. But, if the reversing loops and the shank are electrically isolated from one another, as I assumed they were, then how are the AR's even seeing the short? It doesn't make sense! Unless the loops aren't really isolated! Which would put one half of my loco on one side of the isolated inner rails of the dbl crossover and the other half of the loco on the other side of the isolated inner rails of the dbl crossover. That might explain why both AR's are lighting up like Christmas morning when the loco gets to that spot... if they're both trying to reverse the polarity with the loco being on both sides of that gap in the crossover it becomes an impossible condition to correct! Thanks for the tip... at least now I have something to troubleshoot! I'll report back with what I find. OH! If not with the insulated rail joiners, how are you gapping your rails? Dremmel? Other?
George, you’ve left out the really important information: how do you have the PSX AR wired in? Where did you place the insulated unijoiners (no, you don’t need to cut any additional gaps in your track)? Your simple crossover dog one has three distinct sections: the left bulb, the straight central section (with crossover) , and the right bulb. Each needs to be isolated from the others. The easiest way to set up auto reversing in this layout is to NOT try to flip he central section. Flip the two bulbs, instead!
Rick, The bulbs of the layout are the reversing sections, the shank between is not reversing. The attached should help clarify how I have this put together, but please let me know if there's something you see that raises a question in your mind? The only reason I asked about cutting gaps is in response to Brad's observation that my insulated rail joiners may not actually be isolating the two reversing 'bulbs' from the shank where the dble crossover resides. If those Kato insulating rail joiners are unreliable, then I'm looking for a reliable way of isolating blocks, reversing loops, etc.
Not sure why the video doesn't come up for you (can others see it?). Here is another link to it... After looking further on Tam Valley's site where they have diagrams for different double crossovers it looks like the one in the video is not going to be right for you as it probably isn't also associated with a dog-bone reversing situation. Here is a link to where they show different situations and note you have to have the gaps and such as they show for them to work .... http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/support/frogjuicerinfo.html The diagram above shows one similar to the video situation and be aware of their caution that the gaps have to be in the locations they show or use one of the other diagrams that they show. This wiring is not going to work for you as there is no reversing going on at the crossing or right before it or after it like your situation. They only show one where the situation is like yours.... ... and it is the one above. Notice the difference in how the crossing/turnout section is wired vs. the other diagram. Instead of the Hex Frog Juicer you could possibly use the ones you have on the two end sections like you have them now and add Tam Valley frog juicers for the area of the crossing for the turnout frogs. That area has to be taken care of as you are finding out. If it was me I'd probably use their Hex frog juicer as it would all be one product that is designed to work in this situation and you wouldn't have to worry about possible compatibility problems between different products. From what I'm reading you are going to have to be careful to make sure the turnout frogs at the crossing are powered by the frog juicer and that the turnout frogs and the crossing is gaped and wired as shown. This might require additional gaps and/or also sections wired together if they are gaped now (like what the guy did in the video). Good luck, take your time and use a continuity tester to make sure you end up with what they are showing. Sumner
Rick, No worries! Good question! I’m not sure I set the current trip value for the PSX1. I think I just installed it out of the box. I’m going to have to go back to the manual and make sure I set that up properly now. I’ll get back to you on that.
Sumner, Holy Crap! Ok... I’m going to have to digest all of that. Of course what I want to do isn’t going to be easy! I don’t know what I was thinking! Lol! Let me run this by you... Since the Kato crossover has contiguous outer rails and isolated inner rails, if I gapped the outer rails in the same places, wouldn’t my AR see the reversing loop as being comprised of the loop and that half of the crossover inside those gaps on the reversing side?
Not sure what to tell you as I don't really have the time right now to fully look at a Kato and compare it to what the Tam Valley wants to see in this situation. You need to really take your time and make sure you have the gaps and the power routed like what they show. Also I screwed up in the diagram shown above when I first posted it earlier but I believe it is correct now. I showed the reversing sections as being the end tracks on both sides but the reversing sections are just part of that length of track. They could be made longer than shown above and go from one turnout on the top to just before the turnout on the bottom on both ends. That would help with them being long enough if you need the length for your train lengths. Looking at Tam Valley's diagram they show continuous rails on the outside of the cross-over. The insides and how the crossing is gaped and wired is unknown to me for your turnouts in the double cross-over. Are your frogs powered? The frog juicers on them and how the crossing is gaped and wired needs to be like above to get rid if the problems you are having I believe. After looking at this some I don't see a way for this to work with just the two reversers you have now. you need more juicers in the turnout frog area to take care of the crossing part of the cross-over or possibly a different solution there. Maybe Kato has it covered? I don't have a Kato so can't check it out. You have two different things going on. One is reversing sections and the second is the crossing itself. Both need to have specific wiring to avoid shorts. Right now your reversers aren't handling the crossing in the cross-over. Sumner
Rick, Turns out that I did NOT set that PSX1 up correctly. I need to solder in a jumper on that card to set the trip limit. But it will be 1.27a, same as the PSX-AR’s, when I’m done.
I just looked at Mike's video on the cross-over.... I might be wrong but I think that the cross-over is going to have to be modified to make it work in your dog-bone/reversing situation. It is wired stock to be a cross-over on parallel tracks where in your situation you have more of a loop/circular track plan where the two sides of the loop come close to each other at the double cross-over and crossing from one track to the other at that point results in a short as stock the cross-over isn't wired for that to work as you are reversing direction crossing over it. Sumner
You say the loco stalls when your loco enters the cross-over with the switches set to cross. Is it possible psx1 trips as soon as you set the crossover switches to cross, before the loco ever gets there? If so, the loco would keep running as long as it is on track powered by one of the psx-ar's (assuming the psx-ar's are NOT powered from psx-1). If so, you have the connections to the two sides (not ends) of the crossover swapped relative to each other. When looking at one end of the crossover, the right-hand rail of all four tracks should be connected to one lead from the PSX1, and the left-had rail of all four tracks should be connected to the other lead of psx1. Think of it this way, the double crossover works fine when it is installed in two tracks that are wired the same direction (DC wise), whether the switches are set to cross or pass. So you need to wire it to psx-1 like that. The double crossover is "power routing", meaning that if set to pass, the two tracks are isolated from each other. This would explain why it still works fine in your setup when it is set to pass. Conversely, if set to cross, both tracks are tied together in the same direction/polarity internally, and if they are not wired the same direction/polarity, a short occurs and trips psx-1.
I have multiple Kato double crossovers, and they work with PSX just fine, with no modification, on the JACALAR. As George is showing, I also have them in the PSX sections (so that there is no reversing when they are thrown). Questions for George: Which is shorting? PSX, PSX-AR#1, PSX-AR#2 or the command station? This will help us figure out where the problem lies
Sumner, Lol! I’ve watched Mike’s video so many times I could almost recite it verbatim! But you’re right in that, while Mike talks about how to power the crossover at all points of entry/exit, it’s in the context of being used to switch between two parallel lines, not in the context of sending traffic back through it in the opposite direction. I’m beginning to think that a mod is in the offing here too. Whether it’s rewiring the crossover in some way or gapping rails or both, or some combination of that and some as-yet unidentified mod, I don’t know. But, there are at least two things I need to do first; I need to set the current trip value for the PSX1, which I didn’t do before installing it; and I need to ensure that my insulated rail joiners are actually isolating those sections of track that need to be isolated. I need to eliminate those issues before trying to address the other possibilities.
Jake, I’ll try to take all of that in order; The loco doesn’t stall when it enters the crossover, it stalls in the center of the crossover. It “seems” to stall when it crosses the gap in the inner rails when the turnouts are set to switch. That’s a good question, and one I don’t have an answer for yet. Per the conversation I had with Rick, I’ve discovered that I don’t have the PSX1 current trip value set properly for my system. So, before I share info that might ‘sound’ relevant re: the PSX1, I need to remedy that trip value first. As soon as I get the trip value of the PSX1 set properly and ensure that my insulated rail joiners are properly isolating my reversing sections, I will document my findings and report back. The PSX1 is powering the shank of the dogbone, which is basically just the crossover and one length of track emanating from each of the four connections, only. Those lengths of track are then connected to the reversing loops with insulated rail joiners, and the isolated reversing sections are then powered by the PSX-AR’s exclusively. Polarity is being maintained at all the feeders for the crossover to operate as if it were part of an oval that never crosses - black leads outboard and white leads inboard. But I see what you’re saying! And I am going to try what you’re suggesting! I don’t know if the PSX1 was tripping during my test, my attention was consumed by the two PSX-AR’s lighting up like Christmas morning. I never even looked at the PSX1! What you’ve suggested here is an intriguing possibility! I’m going to try that Jake and I will report back what I get. Thank you! George
Rick, The odd thing is that both PSX-AR #1 AND #2 were lighting up! This is why I think there might be something to Brad’s observation that the Kato insulated rail joiners may not be doing their jobs. The AR’s should be blind to what’s happening inside the shank and outside of their insulated zones, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. Unfortunately, I wasn’t paying attention to the PSX1 to see if I was getting an indication there, but since I don’t have the jumper in place to set the trip value, I’m assuming it didn’t trip. With the J6 connector of the PSX1 un-bridged, the trip value is 3.81a, and my system is a 2a max cap system. Properly bridged the trip value of the PSX1 will be 1.27a. So, I have some things to correct and test, and then I’ll be in a better position to give good information on the results. Thank you, G.
George, this is the problem. With reversers, do NOT try to also reverse the polarity in the shank! Feeders should (from top to bottom) be BLACK, WHITE, BLACK, WHITE. You simply have parallel tracks with a cross over there. You've created a double reversing section!
