A Buyers/Sellers Concern-Ethics

Ethics in selling?

We just had a interesting discussion regarding Ethics at Train Shows, competition of various items, as originally submitted by Bruce Arbomambo. Thank-you for that.

Then it happens. I'm looking for baggage cars and RPO cars to finish off my Southern Pacific Mail Train. Side note: Thanks to Bruce for helping me round out my Santa Fe Mail Train or trains (plural) at this point.

I'm on a certain e-sellers and buyers network and notice something that concerned me. Here is a Lima, baggage and/or passenger combo being sold at brand new prices. It still had the old trucks and Rapido couplers on it - devaluing it in my opinion. There was no way I'd spend over $15.00 for it and the price was marked at starting bid, over $30.00. This could easily fit in with the ongoing thread, More Humor On E-pay.

I thought about this for all of two days and it finally came to me. We are in an age where older N Scale or for that matter any scale of train equipment, once sold for less. Originally sold for far less then it's being priced today. Another way of saying this is: Items are being sold for higher then the original price. Question being is that Okay? I should note: For quality less then we are getting with today's products. Do you see the question I'm about to pose....coming?

What is ethically correct?

We can look at collector's item? Therefore does it drive a higher price in the market place? Is N Scales earliest pieces considered by most of us in the hobby to be collector's pieces? And would that be the only reason it would drive a higher price...today?

How about demand or what the market will bear? You'd expect a guy from Big Bear Country to say that "Bear." You might also hear me say, "That's unbearable."

Is the bidding wars an appropriate place to buy stuff? Or does it end up being overinflated? Over rated?

Let's not start a war of words here.

I throw this out here not as a survey but food for thought.
Yours!

What is ethical pricing of today's train equipment even if it's yesteryear's products?

 

We may need to move this to Inspection Pit or whatever is considered appropriate.

Thanks in advance.

 

As long as an item is accurately described and the photos are of good quality, I don't see the need to forewarn potential Buyers that it's old N Scale. I've sold a significant number of items on eBay with a low starting price based on my appraisal of diminished worth, only to see bidding carry pricing far higher than I ever thought possible.

 

Just because something is old and no longer made, some of it for decades, does not mean it is valuable. Some of that stuff were shelf queens from the start and would require a micro-mini machine shop and a Midas touch to get into a reliable running condition. Back when I was modeling SP&S I acquired a number of old MiniTrix Pacifics that required a lot of work to make them reliable runners and to convert the shells to SP&S types. The most I ever paid for one was $30 and usually only $20. Some shells I paid $5 for just for the Belpaire firebox. In the last several years I drastically downsized everything and sold it off. Some of it had only seen a short jaunt on my test track yet I treated and priced it as used and marked them well below the listed prices. Needless to say they sold well and fast and I made enough spare change to finance my new modeling direction. To me used means used and should command a price reduction, not like some of that old Bmann stuff that sold for under $50 new and now is suffering from split axle syndrome but selling for a $100 and over. My old Bmann steam suffering from split axles hit the trash bin where it belonged not foisted off on some unsuspecting buyer.

 

Anything is worth whatever people will pay. However, I will say that if general used goods are exceeding new costs (not talking collectibles) after deducting allowances for wear and maintenance, then there's a supply problem. At that point it's manufacturers not properly addressing demand adequately, or their new products are worse and less desirable.

 

There is a simple solution, just pass on it if you do not think it is worth the money. Just realize the world is filled with people with unrealistic expectations and just shy away gracefully.

 

Not just MRR items, any items, I don't really care how over price they priced it. If the seller over prices the item, the market will let him know if it's ok or not. If it sits and doens't sell, that's a message to him/her. At the same time, if bids come in making it higher price, then that's a message to him too. Supply and demand will level it out.

Some could be out for a big profit. Some could be a widower selling her husband's trains and have no idea how much they are worth (or not). As long as their description and pictures are correct and they are not trying to deceive, the market will determine the price.

 

If someone is willing to buy an item at the asking price then it is not over priced. That is basic economics. If no one buys it then it is over priced.

 

This reminds me of a debate I'm currently having with a good friend of mine. There is a gas station here that's charging $2.99 a gallon for gas. Right across the freeway, within plain sight, there's a gas station charging $2.19 a gallon. He says it's unethical for that station to charge so much. I say it isn't, they are charging what the market will bear. And believe me, there's always cars there filling up. If nobody bought their overpriced gas, they'd reduce their price. If someone's selling overpriced trains, somebody's buying them. And just because you wouldn't pay a certain price for something doesn't mean somebody else won't.

 

I watch the show American Pickers on the History Channel and see a lot of stuff like that. People with farms and old buildings filled with years of junk, parts, old cars, etc. and expect a lot of money for things that don't really have that much value. Being in HO scale, I don't look at the N scale items specifically, but I do see a rise in prices in old stuff in general. I like what Flak said about supply/demand. Athearn Blue Box used to be common, but now that it is not around anymore, it is becoming more expensive on E-Bay. Everyone is always saying "Oh, use an old Blue Box locomotive for a project," but when they are selling for $30 on E-Bay with $10 shipping, I don't want to pay $40-50 for a car or locomotive I will take apart anyway.

I don't really see much on the 'collection' side. I think that is more an O scale thing. I think the only time that rarity influences price is with brass trains. I see those limited run, one-off models being worth something. With most plastic, a rare model just means a bad one. If it was a good model back then, people would have bought them and companies would have produced them.

 

Something in my opinion I find unethical is listing a 30 year old item as new in box "NIB", even if it's never been out of the box. In my opinion it should be labelled "New Old Stock" or "NOS". In my opinion the tern "New In Box" leads a person to believe the item was recently made. But now the question is, what is the dividing line between new and old? Again in my opinion, if it's a locomotive and it's DCC ready or DCC equipped, NIB is not a stretch, otherwise it should be listed as NOS. For rolling stock my dividing line would be, does the car come equipped with Micro-Train or Micro-Train compatible couplers? If Rapido coupler equipped, then it would be NOS. But again buyer be informed, a Lima flatcar produced in 1968 with Micro-Train couplers is not NIB, it's NOS as it originally came with Rapido couplers.

For the last question, is N scale collectable? My answer is Yes and many people have begun collecting early N scale offerings from companies like Aurora "Postage Stamp Trains", Lone Star, Arnold, Early Atlas, Lima and others. As for prices, even though my inflation calculator tells me a Lima Train Set purchased for $20 in 1970, would be worth $131 today, there is no way I'd ever pay more than $30 to add that train set to my collection even if it was in mint condition. So I guess when it comes to collecting or buying NOS, buyer beware and do your homework before placing that bid.

 

This is my general guide. I post the photographs. I describe it thoroughly. I do, however, warn prospective bidders that it is old and if there are inherent problems with the thing, I let them know that. As an example, if I put up a B-mann PLUS F-unit, and, it is running acceptably, I will make that known. Further, I will make it known that the PLUS F-units have an inherent manufacturing flaw where the gears crack and the thing will not run properly. The only reason that I do this is to cover my [donkey]. If the customer gets it, puts it onto the track and it does not run properly, if he complains, FeePay is going to take his side. I will have to return his money and eat the return postage. If I let them know up front, FeePay always has taken my side. In cases of something such as the B-mann PLUS F-unit or old RR steam with the zirmac frame, I let the potential customer know what it what up front. I let him know that I tested it and, as of the posting, it is running as it should. I will add that due to the inherent manufacturing flaw that has not shown itself Y-E-T, I am selling the thing "AS-IS". I will not accept a return. FeePay always has taken my part when I did this.

I have made it known that some of the stuff that I had up there was junque, some of it had not shown the flaws that many of the products of that type have or even that what I am selling is only good for parts. I put a price on it that I think that I will get and will start people bidding.

In answer to Original Poster's question, that is ethical. The customer who comes to FeePay will comparison shop. If he sees Atlas GP-9s with Scale Speed motor for thirty to forty dollars new, he is not gong to buy the fifty dollar GP-9, unless it is the only one with the road name/number that he wants. He knows the price before he bids. If he does not like it, he need not bid.

Admittedly, I will often put an opening bid on an item in an amount that I know is far less than what I will get for it. I do this to get the bidding going. Subsequent bidders know at what level the bid is. They can choose to bid more, or, leave it alone. The bottom line, here, is if you do not like the price, do not bid.

 

When advertising something for sale, whether on-line or at a train show... the seller should show a level of intergity to not misrepresent the item(s). That is actually the only thing the seller needs to do to be considered 'ethical'.

The seller may or may not actually know the current value of an item he is selling and might overprice or underprice. At a trainshow a saavy buyer will pass up on the overpriced items... but might not consider himself 'unethical' to buy and obviously underpriced item without advising the seller. In an online auction enough saavy buyers could bid up the final sale amount to a reasonable level... which could be higher than original 'cost' of an older product... but lower than current MSRP.

I have numerous rolling stock and locomotives which I acquired at very low cost. The same products with only slight upgrades may have current MSRP 5x -10x higher. I would not consider selling them lower than what I acquired them today... due to replacement cost. I would properly represent the items as older used items and estimate a reasonable price for a potential buyer to bid on. If I get no bids... I have to reconsider the asking price... but I do not have to underprice just to 'feel' ethical.

The high prices being 'floated' are a reflection of the inflated MSRPs which have occurred over the past 15 years. I used to buy Atlas rolling stock as low as $1.00 for the 70T ore cars... what is the current MSRP... $12.00... so maybe $9.00 discounted. I would post the item in its original packaging and condition as used at $5.00... and would not feel unethical.



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The excessive use of "vintage" in auction listings for just about anything of any age makes me crazy, just like all the commercials on TV that use the line "it's (blankety-blank), re-imagined". Seriously, it's like every other commercial and has been so for about 5 years.

 

If you are incapable of deciding for yourself if an item is priced too high, then:



- Jeff

 

Yeah, I think low auction starting points are the way to go. They allow for the actual value of the item to be shown. Once it reaches it’s value, people stop bidding. If people list it high and expect it to go higher, I feel that is when it gets sketchy. I think topics like this are kind of fun. They are different than the regular model topics.

 

Nope. They're both large national chains. Both have large refineries nearby, (I live in Houston), and to drive from one gas station to the other, you just drive a few hundred feet over Interstate 10. I can stand by my car and pump gas and see the price sign of the other station clearly.

 

If one is an old fashioned gas station, gas and light repairs, and the other is a gas station and convenience store, they probably are able to drive their cost down with volume over a chain of convenience stores. And remember, as gas starts out the same. The delivery truck fills up at a loading rack, and sometimes additives are included by retailer's specifications (chevron for example has a lot of additives) but none of the refineries produce gs for a specific branded station anymore.