Question Z Scale PCC Trolley

jshglass Dec 5, 2017

  1. ddechamp71

    ddechamp71 TrainBoard Member

    2,153
    653
    46
  2. kevsmith

    kevsmith TrainBoard Member

    1,976
    4,710
    63
    Kurt Moose likes this.
  3. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

    846
    1,105
    27
    Thanks, Kev
    I have seen his work over there. I have not seen a PCC car, though. He does have what looks like a type 5 car which preceded the PCC. The 2 types did run together for awhile until the type 5 was phased out entirely. There is one in the Boylston St. subway station just for show along with a PCC. One of the current existing ones was taken out of service last week after rear-ending a stalled car in front of him. It happened between Cedar Grove station and Butler St. station on the Mattapan Red Line extension. They may be the only PCC's still in revenue service. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. I'd like to see the others. I did get a message from Ben at Animek. He is waiting for a couple of Rokuhan shorty motors to arrive. He will see what the possibilities are for making a PCC shell. I would prefer the additional weight polybak and white glue will add to the finished model. 3-D is still a bit too delicate and lightweight for my taste and hammy hands. Happy New Year everybody. Jim in Boston
     
  4. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

    521
    860
    30
    The city of The Hague (Netherlands) had PCC cars running in regular service until 1993. The city tram museum has several old trams on display, in total I believe they have 11, of which one is in the Original 1952 outfit. The newest dates from 1974.

    [​IMG]


    One PCC car is partly restored to the Original version and operates regularly as a touristtram (hop on hop off). You can see three versions in this short YouTube film:



    Info on the touristtram can be found here:
    http://www.touristtram.nl/en/

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
    Kurt Moose likes this.
  5. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

    521
    860
    30
    I would be interested in a z scale version by Animek as well...
     
  6. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

    846
    1,105
    27
    Thanks, Matt I did not know that PCC's were ever used in Europe. I thought they were an American only car. I learn something new every day. They look much more modern than Boston's PCC's.. Some of the Boston PCC's came from the Dallas transit system. All have been restored and upgraded with A/C, heat, etc...Unlike tourist excursions the Boston PCC's are in everyday service and are a vital link from the southern section of the city to Ashmont station, the beginning of the Red Line into Cambridge. They are used by almost 8000 passengers a week. The line runs thru some of the best scenery along the entire system. It should be run as a tourist attraction. There is a PCC on Shapeways website. However, it represents the European version seen in your post. The Boston PCC's do not have 3 sets of doors. We have only 2 sets of doors per car. I hope Ben is successful in producing one in z scale. I would take 2-3 for a mini-module. Thanks for the photos. Jim in Boston
     
    mdvholland likes this.
  7. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

    521
    860
    30
    Hi Jim, thanks for your info. Boston is somewhere on my bucketlist...

    I think I found the pcc on the Shapeways website, this one:
    https://www.shapeways.com/product/5SHBFZTS7/pcc-1200-h0-n-z?optionId=63458283&li=marketplace

    It has a disclaimer, saying it is "a work in progress version which will unlikely be finished. Requires manual work of adding details."
    Well. We'll see. I just ordered one :) Let you know what it looks like when it's in. Should be here in two weeks..

    I noticed the difference with the US vs European body styles. Notably, the European versions (built in Belgium in USA license) were typically with a more narrow body, to fit European cities.

    There are some folks offering pcc cars US style in N scale and up. They might by inclined to rework their designs to Z scale...
    E.g. https://www.shapeways.com/product/7...illinois-terminal-trolley-b?optionId=42262951

    Matt
     
  8. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

    846
    1,105
    27
    HI, Matt
    Thanks for that info. Let us know what that one looks like when it arrives. It sounds like it will be more like a kit. I am hopeful that Ben at Animek can make one available. I am concerned with the delicate nature of the 3-D material. The material Ben uses (polybak) seems better for an operating model. I have just started buying items from Shapeways and am very impressed with the small detail items that for a long time were just not available in z, ie, scale barrels, mailboxes, dumpsters, etc...Finally I have scenery that is in scale. No more out of scale details. Good riddance Faller 8' scale z barrels. If you are ever in Boston let me know and we can show you around the Boston subway system. I am a subway rat from way back. I still take the T to work most days and use it to get around most days. I no longer take the Mattapan PCC because it is only one short stop to the main station that takes me into town. It does ride past our home though (Cedar Grove Station.) For 30 years I lived further up the line (Milton Sta.) and took it daily. I do miss it but it is only 5 minutes to the main terminal (Ashmont Sta.) Take care, Jim in Boston
     
    mdvholland likes this.
  9. Heay Equipment Designer

    Heay Equipment Designer TrainBoard Member

    208
    449
    19
    I started a chassis several years back in CAD for Shapeways with the intentions of using power max chassis. I could get it to fit in the width of what would be a PCC shell. But not nearly enough room for sufficient truck articulation. You would have to grossly oversize the width of the PCC body. So I never developed a shell for it. Add to that, the power max wheels are way to big and the spacing between axles on the chassis is to long for a PCC unit. It would have really looked like a "toy" even if it had worked.

    master-metric-3dmax.jpg


    I had thought about doing a Chicago PCC. They had body panel covers that covered up the truck cutouts on the PCC body. So for the most part you cant see the trucks. I thought about using the Marklin 4 axle chassis in their European version of a compact 4 axle doodlebug since you would not be able to see the wheels. But your stuck with Chicago. I grew up riding PCC's in the suburbs of Boston Massachusetts. So that just wont work for me but might work for others.

    Los Angeles had a PCC line that used narrow gauge. So I also thought about doing a Z PCC using the T gauge chassis. But again, Los Angeles would be the only line you could do. Again that's no good for a Northeast person like me....

    Another problem is that PCC's use 26" DIA wheels (if I remember correctly). There is nothing off the shelf even remotely that size in z scale. So I have a feeling the wheels on the shorties are going to be grossly out of scale. But a lot of things are in Z scale. So I ordered a few chassis to play around with. My only other concern is that the wheel spacing on the truck will probably be a lot longer then what would be on a PCC truck. So there might still need to be some "fudging" involved when modeling the PCC shell. That being said, if it is possible in the end, there is a potential for other historical trolley cars. I would love to do the old snow plow (converted type 5 car?) the MBTA used. It would be perfect for that, if it fits....

    Looking forward to getting my shorties and playing around with them to see what can be done. Only problem like always will be finding the spare time right now outside of work.


    -Jon
     
  10. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

    273
    161
    12
    The PCC has 26" wheels on a 6' wheelbase. That translates to .118" (3mm) wheel diameter X .327" (8.3mm) wheelbase. I'm not aware of any power wheels that small but I also have not investigated it beyond my interests in Nn3.

    The problem I had in my venture was getting the final drive gear small enough while still maintaining a gear ratio that was able to run at something less than 200 scale MPH.:eek: I have made gears and successfully tested as small as 24" N scale wheels working in a drive train with a 150:1 ratio which affords excellent speed control as well as a top speed of 20 to 25 scale MPH in N. That would translate to about 30 MPH in Z scale. From these Nn3 efforts I think a gear that would handle the wheel diameter mentioned above while still maintaining the really high drive train ratio could be made but will require some new tooling to hob those gears. I don't know if or when that will happen as I have plenty on my plate as it is.

    Hope that information adds something to the conversation.:)
     
  11. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

    522
    1,171
    29
    With the new Rokuhan Shorties there might be a way to do a street car motorized! I have done a few street car but done are motorized! These are all 3D printed in Z scale!
    IMG_6018.JPG IMG_6017.JPG IMG_4111.JPG
     
  12. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

    522
    1,171
    29
    Buses like this one!
    IMG_5907.JPG IMG_5905.JPG
     
  13. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

    521
    860
    30
    Hi Traktoo, yes, motoring and wheels will be a challenge for this type of z scale models. I am not (at all) skilled in fine mechanics or metal works, so I would surely appreciate someone developing wheelsets for z scale trams or trolleys.
    Could a T-gauge motor with pre-attached gear be used, combined with Nm/Nn3/Z power wheelsets? T-gauge standard is 2mm wheels so even on 3mm wheels it should be able to run at acceptabel speed(?)

    https://www.tgauge.com/product/194/7/4-5vdc-shicoh-motor

    Of course, these are 4.5 V so a powerdrop must be included.

    Matt
     
  14. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

    273
    161
    12
    The problem with making smaller wheels is that they must be larger than the final drive gear or the gear will be the low point, hitting the track in switches or crossings. And the problem with the gear size is having enough teeth to have a reasonable gear ratio for a reasonable speed which also translates into low speed control quality and at some level, the leverage the ratio affords so that a small, low power motor, has sufficient power at the wheels to pull a train. It's a balance among all of those things.

    What my development and testing with my current chassis has demonstrated to me is that I feel comfortable that I can make a finer pitch final gear that will still run very reliably. That would allow for a smaller final drive gear diameter, small enough for a 26" Z scale to clear the rails, without sacrificing the lower final drive ratio that is so critical to good performance. Of course, the wheels would need to be made too but that's just deciding to do it, nothing magic. The profile is to NMRA standards for Z/ Nn3 and has already been done for existing projects so it would just be a diameter change once set up to run.

    It's in my plans to try the smaller gear pitch the next time I'm set up to run gears but that will be a while because I've already got a sufficient number run for current projects and I'm still in the final stages of that project. It is the production and successful testing of that gearset that would be the main driving force in the viability of a project like this, not the wheels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  15. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

    521
    860
    30
    Thanks, I understand what you are saying.
     
  16. Heay Equipment Designer

    Heay Equipment Designer TrainBoard Member

    208
    449
    19
    Tracktoo, do you have a good source for off the shelf gears and motors in micro sizes? I have not had much luck finding anything except for one site in England. But even most of his stuff is for larger scales.

    Thanks,

    -Jon
     
  17. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

    273
    161
    12
    That's why I made my own. ;) But I had to make the tooling, too. And this is with access to a real, operating machine shop with some very nice machines, one of which had the features needed to adapt to small gear making.

    To make any custom gears in short quantities at a price that could be tolerated is near impossible. That applies to me, too. I made a little bit of quantity to a design specifically for my projects and taking advantage of the access when there was some time available on that machine. And it's a courtesy extended to me that I couldn't and wouldn't abuse.

    Even those gears that are made in quantities as catalog items aren't real inexpensive and most often need to be finished to fit. Somebody like Boston Gear is an old line company who still does this but you won't find anything the likes of what we use. One who might have some things that would work, best try I can think of, would be Northwest Short Lines or NWSL. A search should find them.

    Other than that, there was a guy in Poland who apparently had small gear tooling and would make some but I don't have a link and not sure if he's still doing that. He had to have some decent tooling to offer what he did but he might also have discovered why nobody else was doing it.

    BTW, this capability is an extension of my professional life where I designed and built custom automated devices for industrial applications. I still do some limited consulting and this shop is one of my customers.
     
  18. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

    522
    1,171
    29
    I'm not a professional designer like some of you guy, and some of this stuff just flies right over my head! But I was wondering since Shapeways does work in Metals Printed material like steel, Brass, and some others could these gears and wheel be designed to the size we need. I guess If I had done some schooling in Engineering I might be able to answer this my self. I have done a few 3D printed piece that have working gear and it works, it can raise and lower hook. I did a small dock crane it has four different size gears! Now this is FUD material and is plastic but it really works!
    IMG_7173.JPG
     
  19. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

    846
    1,105
    27
    Call me naïve but I thought when I heard there might/could be a PCC Shell coming there would be a couple of options to power it. It is clearly not the case. There is a lot of technical stuff that I just don't understand. If what is needed is not available then it is time for somebody to make them. Can 3-D printing help the process? Can gears and wheels be made that would work? In my case I would like a PCC to be part of a scene within a scene. It would not need to pass thru switches or crossings it would simply go back and forth behind scenery blocks. How would this change the equation in Tracktoo's explanation of the drive gear hitting these obstacles? Could one be made with existing stock if it were only running in a circle or back and forth? I have seen and built some excellent 3-D printed items, maybe 3-D printing can solve some of the problems we are discussing on this forum. Is there an engineer in the house...Jim in Boston
     
    southernnscale likes this.
  20. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

    273
    161
    12
    The problem with 3D printed gears in a motorized device is especially the tolerance and finish. Then there is the material and its suitability to accept a press fit of an axle and run continuously at relatively high RPM. Even if the process tolerances and a suitable material were available for a high speed gear mesh (which I haven't seen, even close) then the involute profile has to be designed correctly so that the machine knows what to make.

    Every change in the number of teeth, even within the same MOD, takes a different tooth profile. The MOD defines the theoretical profile of the tooth and the depth of engagement and actually IS the profile of a rack gear. But the minute you place those teeth radially around a hub the tooth mesh faces have to "roll" smoothly in and out of engagement which requires a tooth face radius to accomplish. Take a minute to understand that, then you realize why the tooth profile changes every time you add or subtract teeth.

    Those are the basic reasons I can comfortably make such a broad sweeping statement, that it's not currently or in the foreseeable future, possible to print reliably running gears at less than 1/8" diameter and with 14 or more teeth. I'm one of the last ones to join the "it can't be done" crowd in most anything. But this time....;)

    Now to more specific replies:

    Southernscale: First, I LOVE your work! But as far as the gears go, you can make a small gear that basically works WHEN it's hand operated and running at very low RPM. Look at the old grist mills that used big old wooden gears with basically wooden pins for teeth. But in miniature and at any speed, see above. ;)

    Bostonjim: You could do that right now, using smaller wheels that let the chassis run below the rails. And it would make a very measurable change in final drive ratio (lower, slower top speed) almost always beneficial in these small devices. If you found a truck that had the basic dimensions that you are interested in and didn't have critical chassis parts that couldn't be removed extending width wise beyond the wheel flanges, you could make up a set of smaller wheels limited only by tie clearance, the next thing to hit. If you had such a device and were only stalled by the wheels or axles themselves, a machinist could help you with that. If you don't have that access, send me a note and maybe I could do it for you. I feel your pain.:)
     

Share This Page