San Diego North & Miramar (Future/next layout)

Yannis Apr 30, 2017

  1. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Hi all,

    In my current layout thread i did mention about the design of my next/future permanent layout. Wanting to have something to look forward to i spent several months in designing it. I am presenting it here for exchanging ideas and getting feedback. Some selective compression was done in some parts.

    The plan is point to point with continuous run option. Minimum radius is 40" on the mainline, in curves seen from the outside a bit less in other parts (min 36"). Usually single operator (me). 6-7 staging tracks in another room not seen in the trackplan that will follow.

    Major Scenes / Areas in sequence: National City Locomotive servicing facility (smaller facility, much closer to 22nd st. yard than it should) -> 22nd St. Yard -> ATSF San Diego Depot -> Main Street (Urban scene / fictional road) -> Industrial Area (Cudahy - Old Town, fictional industries) -> Miramar Hill (scenic run) -> Coastline (scenic run) -> Fictional Coastal Town -> Towards staging (LA).

    Operations / Trains:
    Local Freight - The Del Mar Turn. Inspired by a once active local freight (and the typical local freight that originated from Oceanside doing the local work up to Miramar). It will originate from 22nd st. yard, do all the industrial switching up to Del Mar (north staging) and return to 22nd st. yard. Power usually 2-3 GP35/GP30 units gathering/distributing cars that are linked with the SDX/SBX freights that follow as well as the SD&AE.
    SBX / SDX Freights: San Diego to San Bernardino and to Los Angeles respectively. Originating from 22nd st. yard, through freights going to north staging. Power, F7/GP9 or RSD15/SD24 consists. Assembled in 22nd st. yard from cars gathered by the local freight and from SD&AE interchange.
    San Diegans Passenger trains: Originating from ATSF Depot in San Diego, stops at fictional coastal town and then to north staging. Power, Alco PA's or F7's, Budd pre-war lightweight coaches for the consists.
    Fictional Local Surfline train (Pacific Chief or Surf Chief), connecting National City and Oceanside. Originates in National City (south staging), stops at San Diego, Miramar (or Sorrento Valley), and at the fictional coastal town and then to north staging (Oceanside). Power an E8m, Budd pre-war lightweight coaches and/or 3000 series heavyweights.
    Fictional Steam Excursion train. Originates from ATSF depot in San Diego, excursions to Fallbrook, Escondido, and LA. Power, 2-8-0 or 4-8-4...(open game here...). 3000 series heavyweight coaches.

    And finally this is the trackplan. Thank you very much for your time and feedback in advance!
    Yannis
    [​IMG]
     
  2. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Are the dimensions of the room in feet (7.5' x 13') or in yards (22.5' x 39')?? If in feet, then you have a shelf that is about 1 foot deep and you must be modeling in N scale or Z scale. In N scale, laying down parallel tracks on 1.25 inch centerlines--with the track centerline closest to the aisle 2 inches from the fascia, and the back track 2.5 inches from the back drop--will let you have a maximum of 7 tracks (track centerlines at 2, 3.25, 4.5, 5.75, 7.0, 8.25, 9.5 inches from the fascia). It looks like the 22nd Street Yard has 8 yard tracks with a few engine tracks in front and buildings behind. Will you be using a deeper shelf in that area, and then narrowing down as you get to the 1 foot wide aisle choke point between the Miramar Hill peninsula and the ATSF Depot/Yard throat?
    If your plan dimensions are in yards or meters, then the curves could indeed be 36 or 44 inch radius and all the tracks depicted will fit nicely onto a 36 inch shelf in N scale...but if you are modeling in HO, then you may still have trouble squeezing 10 or 11 tracks plus structures into 36 inches in the 22nd Street Yard. They may fit, but you won't have much room between tracks to see reporting marks on cars or see to do any uncoupling of cars on the back tracks. Additionally, the tracks may be so close to the front of the layout shelf, that any pics you take will always have to include a portion of the fascia, and the buildings at the back of the layout will be only an inch or so deep...certainly, do-able, but (if you are like me), the crowding can become tiresome very quickly, and you'll tear it out and replace it with a smaller yard that is more fun to work and MUCH easier to scenic realistically for decent pics.

    I see the tail at the bottom of the plan leading to staging...I assume along a wall? Or, (my preference, for what it's worth) will you curve down and around to descend to staging tracks under the 22nd St Yard and the ATSF Depot? I see the word, "Staging", in the upper left corner, but don't see a track leading there, yet. Will the whole left side of the layout plan descend from Miramar Peninsula so that one of the two tracks in the upper left can curve back to the right and run under the backdrop separating the inside and outside track...and then pass left to right across the top of the layout to connect to staging under the ATSF Depot? If you plan to do lower level staging under the main deck, then try to have the staging shelf stick out about 4 inches into the aisle (2 tracks in N scale, maybe 6 inches for 2 tracks in HO), so you can see and easily access from directly above, all trains in staging (to easily do maintenance or make repairs or solder wires...which will be impossible if there is less than 10 inches [the height of a soldering wand] between the two decks).
     
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  3. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Dave, many thanks for the very detailed and thorough answer, it is much appreciated!!! My bad, I forgot to mention that it is in HO scale and all dimensions are in meters on the xtrackcad output. Minimum isle width is 36" if i am not mistaken.

    Track spacing on the 22nd street yard is at the moment 2.2", i could bump it to 2.5" in order to improve uncoupling and being able to see reporting marks (thanks for this tip! For the yard I need 4 yard tracks (one for SDX, one for SBX, one for Local and one for SD&AE interchange), 1 A/D track and the mainline, for the engine service facility i need 4 tracks. So minimum 10 tracks for the whole lot. In the trackplan as seen, i got 11 tracks so i can cut-down to 10 tracks and bump up a bit shelf width for photographs as you say. I could also bump up shelf width in front of the depot for the same photographic reasons, or ditch a track near the benchwork edge. I am all ears here for suggestions. I could loose one track for the engine facility and go down to nine tracks, but then i wont have a ready track for locomotives (maybe i don't need one, so i am all ears here as i said). Now that you mentioned it, i did tear up a lot of tracks on my current layout in order to have it less cramped, so i think we are in the same page on this.

    The tail at the bottom right leads to staging in another room via an along-the-walls track. The track on the upper left side (behind the cannery) goes north through the wall, into a next room (not seen on the trackplan i posted) where staging is. I opted for along-the-walls track running the perimeter of the whole basement and into another room, instead of having a helix at each end and lower level staging. I prefer the idea of staging in the open (next room) for ease of maintenance. I originally planned this with a helix at each end and lower level staging, but i did not like the lost real estate of each helix vs the along-the walls solution. I got hidden tracks on my current layout and lower level staging and i want to avoid them completely in my next one, plus i like the idea of having a train doing circles around the entire basement.

    Looking forward to hearing from you Dave, many thanks again for the detailed reply.
    Yannis
     
  4. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    When we moved to this home in 2003, we knew we'd be retiring here, so we deliberately chose a house with plenty of room for our hobbies (my trains and her weaving). Our 35x40 foot basement holds my 8th [or 9th?] (and by far the grandest) version of the Peoria and Pekin Union Railway. My 2003 version was to have the four major cities and about 100 industries served by the P&PU on the fully decorated/sceniced upper deck and the 12 railroads traveling to and from undecorated/unsceniced "cities" around the Midwest (really, just staging) on the lower deck by helixes. I had struggled with inadequate access and clearance between decks on previous iterations, so I separated the decks by 17 inches and put them at 48 and 65 inches elevation. Relatively quickly after getting some scenery and cardboard mock-up structures on the upper deck, I decided to add scenery/structures to some of the staging yards on the lower deck, as well, which triggered significant reconfigurations (tearing out track and turnouts....and hair LOL) of some of the yards for better appearance and more realistic representation of the specific RR yard and nearby buildings/industries in those cities.

    Putting your staging in separate rooms (instead of on a lower deck) sounds wise...HO helixes are horrendous space hogs. When planning your staging, you may want to leave enough room for adding scenery and structures (and rail access to nearby industries? and photo opportunities?) at some point in the future, so you can minimize reconfiguration aggravations.

    With 36 inch aisles, you will certainly have easy access to the tracks at the end of the aisle to the left of Miramar Hill and to the ATSF Depot tracks...for one person. Since you are building this layout for operations, you may want to consider tweaking your aisles a little to accommodate a second operator, even if it's only an occasional visitor (kid, grandkid, neighbor who also likes trains). It would be possible to shift the Miramar Hill peninsula 6 inches to the right to reduce the aisle to a 30 inch choke point by the upper ATSF Depot throat, and increase the aisle by 6 inches on the left of peninsula. If you also reduce the thickness of the peninsula from the lower right of the end of the aisle through the backdrop to the fruit packing industry on the outside of the peninsula, you could possibly gain an increase in the aisle to 40 (or 48?) inches at the lower ATSF Depot throat across from the fruit packing industry. This would improve people meets by allowing one operator to work the Depot or packing plant while another is running to or from the waterfront. Meets above and to the left of the peninsula will still be an issue, but could be minimized (hopefully, eliminated) by judicious scheduling.

    As drawn, there is only a single industry track and a passing siding along the waterfront. This would seem to be a great location for another operator to work a number of industries. Is that a future option?

    In the lower corner of the waterfront, you've put an overpass sort of square with the fascia and severely angled at the backdrop. I tried that sort of arrangement on an earlier version of the P&PU, but was very dissatisfied...the 3D road narrowing to a point against the 2D road on the backdrop looked UGLY from any angle except one (and even that didn't look too good). So for my current layout, I used forced perspective and had the 4 inch wide road sharply curve and narrow to 1 inch and then disappear behind trees before it reached the backdrop. If you angle your overpass diagonally from the lower left, over the tracks and then curve to run behind building(s) and parallel with the backdrop, you might be able to avoid an unrealistic transition from 3D to 2D. And if you put a mirror or Y intersection at the "end" of the road, you will be able to have a realistic view when looking from the waterfront aisle AND when looking from the bottom aisle along the entire length of the waterfront to the curve into staging in the next room.

    Depending on the preferred height of your layout, another option might be to shift the industry to the left of Miramar Hill deeper into the end of the aisle and have the overpass from the waterfront descend to become the underpass near the industry at the end of the aisle. Instead of a vertical backdrop and skyboard, you would have tall buildings and hills/trees forming viewblocks, so a person working the industry at the end of the aisle could not see any of the trains moving on the outside of the peninsula or the waterfront (although they would be able to see tops of buildings or hills, and other operators). Some people say layouts seem larger when they don't have a vertical sky limiting their vision to 30 or 36 inches.

    If your track is at 48 inches elevation and your eyes are around 65 inches, then your view blocks will need to be about 8 or 10 inches tall (58 to 73 scale feet). If your track elevation is lower, then using view blocks instead of a backdrop between the waterfront industries and the peninsula aisle industries can still work, if the view blocks are taller, and if the distance from fascia to view block is increased. Unfortunately, you may not have enough space for the lower elevation-deeper shelves option to work well, because increasing the height of the view blocks so close to the tracks may make some of the buildings and hills seem oddly proportioned and will definitely make the trains (the stars of the show) seem crowded/overpowered by the structures (which are supposed to support the stars, not detract from them).

    If you haven't done it yet, I strongly encourage you to take the time to put together some cardboard or paper mock-ups of the back-to-back waterfront structures and the end-of-aisle industry(s). Play with various building sizes/heights and shapes, shelf elevations, view block versus backdrop heights, shelf depths, and track placement on the shelf to find the combination(s) that work(s) best for you and your space. As we've learned from Captain Obvious: Track planning and city/industry designing with paper and tape today is a lot cheaper/easier than tearing up track tomorrow. ;-)
     
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  5. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Dave,
    I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but many thanks for the extremely detailed answer you gave me. I really appreciate the time you devoted in thinking / writing it up!

    With respect to staging, I plan on having it on a separate storage room (non scenic / non layout area). However, I will try to make some provisions for future additions of scenery should I ever decide to make it a layout area.

    I am mostly planning for solo-operations so I don’t expect issues with 36” isles but I got no operating experience so I will seriously consider your suggestions with respect to isles and widths. The idea of getting a choke point of 30” on the right isle and increasing the left isle width will benefit me if I understand it correctly by having wider isles where more switching ops are expected? If that is the case then it is not a problem to shift things as you propose.

    For the fruit packing point, what you propose is to reduce benchwork width and increase isle width where the fruit packing is? Essentially making the benchwork edge (where the fruit packing is) parallel to the mainline?

    I am totally with you on the overpass / backdrop / perspective thing, I hastily added the overpass recently to the plan as seen. I originally thought of having the road parallel to the mainline / coastline / backdrop and as it goes north to have some sort of curve and hide behind trees before hitting the backdrop, including a nice roadside diner scene (1967 Impala parked there) which I really like having in the layout (as a scene). Plan B is to eliminate the overpass/road completely since having a wide road will rob me of real estate which I might need between the mainline and the backdrop along the coast. Having said that, I might keep it running for just a bit along the coast for a few feet and then take a right turn behind trees and into the backdrop. So have half the coastline with the road and the other (northern) half with the small town. As I said I would like to include a roadside scene with a typical roadside diner at some point on the layout. I originally thought of putting this on the Miramar hill area so this road-roadside scene will be either on Miramar or on the coast. In any case I ll incorporate the method you mentioned with trees/turn/backdrop hidden exit.

    In the part where you mention shifting the industry to the left of Miramar, if I understand this correctly you mean combining the overpass on one side (coast) with the underpass on the industrial side and getting rid of the backdrop right? I considered this but I would like to keep the backdrop around and possibly add a valance / lighting etc all around for the layout.

    I will most definitely utilize mock-ups to make sure things look right as I did/do on my current layout. They really can save a lot of trouble.

    As for the coastal part and industries/switching, I am all up for adding more industries there, I just do not want to make it too dense since I would like this small town to be more “rural”. An extra industry or two won’t hurt though, especially if it is a team track.

    With respect to your previous post and mentioning track distance from layout edge and photography, would let’s say 4-5” be sufficient?

    So looking forward to the moment of being able to start this layout!
    Many thanks again Dave!

    PS. Do you have a layout thread? (Sorry new here and I haven’t found it yet)
     
  6. SandyEggoJake

    SandyEggoJake TrainBoard Member

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    Love the concept... but as a San Diego guy & Warbonnet fan, I am rather biased!

    Suggestions:

    1: Do it in N Scale. Just saying.... while tight for HO, would be absolutely killer for N. No? Can't say I didn't try.

    2. @ppuinn concerns about the hwy overpass should be considered. I would highly suggest you do a small mock up. But also it very much depends on which bridge and from which vantage you model. If you say make this bridge to be the North Torrey Pines Road overpass in Del Mar, you could model it from a "track side" vantage, with the overpass road surface well above the view plan of the audience. So the focus would be a forced perspective of the soaring reinforced concrete arch above the viewer. And while one would not see the road surface, the roadway approach would otherwise disappear among Torrey Pines and sandstone bluffs on the partition.

    3: Operationally, I'm not a huge fan of point to point layouts of this size, unless they have some auto reversing in at least one end of the staging. You may wish to find some way to create at least one loop. That way you can have some easy roundy-round action for younger guests and solo ops. How to do this? Hmmm.... Well.... could you stand to loose 1.5 to 2 meters between North San Diego and the Roundhouse? Would you do so if it could give you a loop path plus an extra 6 meters of layout? I'd make that trade in a heart beat. You did mentioned excursions to Fallbrook & Escondido, right? Well, this just might be perfect.

    If I can assume your gray bars are solid walls, I would suggest ...

    A) a simpler Union (AT&SF) Station yard (just a passenger loading track or two and freight bypass) and instead more use of the 22nd yard.

    B) lose a rung or two on the 22nd yard and also bump it out some... even is just a foot from the 0 to 4 meters range.

    C) doing A & B could allow you to compress 1.5 to 2 m out of the range from meter 5 to meter 11.

    D) while doing this, consider replacing with one rung of the 22nd yard with a siding that services the adjacent industries and interchanges with the SD&AE (similar to the old National City track plan that snakes behind and amid industries adjacent to the yard). To my eyes, your plan is generally are lacking loading docks & sidings for spotting cars in this south end.

    And here is the payoff...

    Now that the right wall run is 1.5m shorter, slide the entire layout down 1.5m --- away from the top wall - and you get a new aisle 1 meter (or so) wide and a half meter for a new 5.5 meters run for an Escondido single track branch line. Obviously, you will want a partition between "North San Diego" and Escondido. Would suggest curved corners in "North San Diego" partition as well as consider that top wall a secondary backdrop.

    By the way... THAT is where your packing house goes (see http://thenarch.com/products/cal-fame-packing-n a model of the real one that was there). On one side, most visible, have a siding for spotting cars. You can run it as a branch.... or, as an added benefit, the big Packing House can screen the train as it disappears down below for an under layout return run along the right wall and connecting to a helix at the bottom right about where "To staging" is written on the lower wall. This under layout run could also give you more staging / storage tracks and a way to ad optionality. (Since it would be hidden by fascia, I recommend using Kato superelevated curves for this small helix.)


    Near the Escondido branchline turnout (oceanside) you could have a rural AT&SF depot based on the real one in Vista... which just happens to be a Santa Fe #3 Standard Depot like this one: (http://www.hobbylinc.com/american-m...depot-kit-n-scale-model-railroad-building-607). By the way, that canary.... I would move it to North San Diego between the edge and track so the cars run behind it. In its place, in Oceanside, I would add a Naval small yard and warehouse with a loading dock, switched by GE 80 tonner. Given you era, that would be a very busy yard. (see http://www.sdera.org/pendleton_rail.php ) Think tanks and helicopters and fuel and supplies galore. As well as military and civilians boarding the train seeking liberty south in downtown SD (and TJ). You might also put the Union Ice house in Oceanside - all that produce from National City & Escondido needs to be iced before it makes the run North to Fullerton & Colton. And down in Miramar, I would recommend three industries A) Frazee paint plant, B) Frost Lumber, and C) Ballast Point Brewery.


    Also, you might consider adding a runaround & caboose track on the North end of your 22nd yard.

    Well... that all for now. Again, you've got a strong start at a great layout. Have fun!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
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  7. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Jake many thanks for the reply and feedback!

    1. I cannot jump to N scale unfortunately. If I was just starting out though I would seriously consider it. Good try though. :)

    2. As I said in my previous post I will seriously consider Dave’s recommendations and input on the overpass. I was thinking to model exactly the concrete bridge you mention, since I consider it a very important “signature” scene for the area. I will revisit this issue in detail in the future. Layout height has not been decided yet, but I think I ll hover around 44”-48”, so with mockups at the time I will check what you mention about the bridge and also the options that Dave mentioned/suggested.

    3. The layout plan I posted does not show the full track. Imagine that the track goes north of the cannery in the upper left corner, circles the entire basement and connects via an along the walls route to the tail track south of the 22nd street yard. The roundy-round option is an absolute must for me since I enjoy relaxing in the room while 1 or 2 trains are doing loops. Furthermore, I also considered double tracking the mainline in order to have one train orbiting while I do the local freight work.

    3.A, B, C, and D: Many thanks for the suggestion. I see the added benefit of the branchline, but I want to keep things without it, even though I appreciate its merits. On a different note, there is a concrete structural element (pillar) in the middle of the Miramar peninsula which cannot be moved around (spend hours in designing the plans for the house so I settled this pillar there). Good suggestion though! The Cal Fame packing house sure looks great! I ll try to have a fictional-freelance packing house either on the spot I mention in the track plan or possibly somewhere along the coast.

    You got my interest with the naval yard and all… would that mix well with the cannery / rural side of things in the fictional smalltown on the coast that I had in mind? Or the naval yard would take over the entire area? I haven’t looked into this option at all yet so excuse my ignorance here. I would not mind in the same real estate of the cannery and part of the small town to have the naval facility you mention (replacing the cannery), especially if it involves dockside scenes, military equipment and warehouses (I really like harbor / docks / cranes as a modeling scene/theme). I suppose my local ATSF freight would drop a cut of cars here, and then the local switcher would spot cars in the facility.

    The ice house you mention, (I have seen photos of the actual building in Oceanside) would it act like an icing platform for icing reefers etc with respect to operations?

    I am already including a brewery as a major industry in the layout, and it will be featured even on my current layout (I really like breweries and their operations). I ll try and build it inspired by the mission brewery building. Thank you very much for the industrial recommendations! They are much appreciated since I am running short on information about specific industries between Miramar and San Diego (in the sixties), despite my research. Keep them coming! All three industries though would have to be relocated using modeler’s license a bit to the south so that they appear in my industrial area . So far in the industries shortlist I got: Brewery, Fruit Packing, Seafood/Cannery, Warehousing, and other Manufacturing businesses (including if possibly, fuel tank manufacturing etc...and/or other aero-products).

    Many thanks again, I will post a refined trackplan soon.

    Yannis

    PS. Jake, I take it you are from San Diego right?
     
  8. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Great post, Jake! Nice industrial and modeling recommendations.

    Yannis: The closest I can come to a layout build thread is referring you to any of my posts in the Annual Winter Layout Party threads. Click HERE to go to the 2016-2017 9th Annual Winter Layout Party thread, or scroll down the Layout Design Discussion forum page to find the thread. FYI, There are several links to previous Layout Parties on the first page and I've posted weekly layout progress reports in most of them. In addition to my weekly progress reports throughout the 10 weeks of the Party, on the last page of 2016-2017 Layout Party thread, I've posted a number of videos of my layout.
     
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  9. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Indeed, both Jake's and your recommendations are golden!

    Impressive work Dave!!! I really enjoyed the photos of the layout. I liked the dark green color option for the fascia. Furthermore the scene (page 5) with the truss bridge you shortened was great!!! Thanks for steering me towards this thread and thanks again for the feedback/advice.

    Yannis
     
  10. SandyEggoJake

    SandyEggoJake TrainBoard Member

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    Yannis, sounds like you have a more complex plan than your initial layout details. Also, I'm struggling to follow your physical room limitation. So I would suggest you consider the comments and provide at least a more complete footprint of the room as well your rough concept for permissible bench work. And would urge you to resist mentally locking yourself into a track plan yet.

    On one hand, some with less vision might scoff at the notion of a loop from Oceanside out into the ocean and back down to the 22nd street yard. But in the late 1890's, a San Diego loop was in fact the Santa Fe's plan. Just inland. They had hoped to extend the Vista / Escondido branch through Poway and connect to what was then Foster and the Lakeside / El Cajon / La Mesa branch of what eventually became part of the SD&A. I've even seen a promotional time table of that era showing that line as if it already existed.

    You could take that as part of your inspiration as you extend south from 22nd to National City (team track from union station with the SD&A) with Western Slat and TJ beyond. But have your loop be from the 22nd yard to Lemon Grove and the rolling farm land of Santee before connecting to Escondido & Vista.

    In the 60's, as well as today, Camp Pendleton is some of the most "rural" land in coastal SoCal. But rather than tractors, they have tanks. Oceanside's Union Ice would be a combo icemaking plant / reefer topping as well as a cold storage. You might wish to include another rural & prototypical industry in this area.... a quarry. Much of the early local freight of the SD&A and Santa Fe was moving sand, dimensional stone, and gravels... as well as "rip rap" from local quarries to create dams, dikes, fill in marsh lands and build roads, etc. Granite was mine from 1961 to 1995 at a site on the Oceanside / Carlsbad boarder, in your era by South Coast Material Company. IIRC, that quarry didn't have a Santa Fe siding, but most of the many quarries in the area did. Lot of flat cars and Caswell's.

    Yes, both Frazee and Frost were key Miramar industries in the 60's. Frazee was founded in 1896. Frost is over 100 years old too... they supplied the lumber to build the Spirit of St. Louis (Lindbergh's plane, which what built in '27 in an old cannery right off the AT&SF right of way in Old Town.) And both benefited from one of the biggest industries in San Diego... real estate development. Lot of new track housing being built in your era.

    Speaking of Old Town, some great modeling opportunity there as you would be able to prototypical do some 300 y.o adobes right next to the iconic structures of SPAWAR.

    Again, if you want the local eye... yes, I live here & model San Diego ..... that is when I can find time beyond my efforts to write a book on the SD&A ... but my modeling focus is the classic steam / bill board boxcar era of 1927 and in N scale, built as Freemo-N modules.
     
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  11. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Jake,
    Thanks a lot again for the wealth of info and feedback that you very generously offer! It is much appreciated. I hope I can help back at some point (if needed) with respect to any modeling info.

    I am posting up an updated plan, showing more details of the room with non-layout areas (gray) as well as the lead to the next storage/staging room. You can see the tracks (with arrows) leading off the main layout to be met at some point to the left of the (unseen) wall.

    I have updated the 22nd street yard removing 1 track and adding a runaround on the ladder.

    I also added a road with the diner on Miramar following the idea of Dave for hiding the exit to backdrop.

    The idea of the proposed loop is very nice but I really want to stick to a linear approach from SD to part of the coast. I got a few books on the topic and indeed it looked very interesting.

    With respect to the Quarry as an industry, would that be too far away from the coast? I only got space for industries along the coast as you can see.

    With respect to camp Pendleton, If I opt for it, I would like to place facilities in the upper 1/3 of the coast, roughly where the cannery currently is. I ll have to read about this though since I know nothing about how it looked like back in the day.

    Great info on the Spirit of St. Louis, I got it as an (unbuilt) 1/48 model by the way. I will DEFINITELY add those two industries you mentioned (Lumber and paint). If you got any other recommendations for rail served industries between (and including) San Diego and Miramar, I am all ears.

    True, that old town has some great historic buildings, unfortunately though I don’t think I got space to add this scene, since I opted for a main-street scene with commercial buildings/stores instead.

    Good luck with the book, i am sure it is going to be great given your expertise on the topic! Looking forward to it (and to seeing any photos of your layout).

    Thanks again!
    Yannis
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Update, i saw how the general area looked like back then, in north Oceanside where the Fallbrook junction / wye is. However i did not see any sidings / spurs back at the time, so the facility was not rail served? I do see a small yard now though parallel to the Santa Fe avenue (which does not appear to have been present in the 1960s).
     
  13. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yannis, Jake:
    Google Maps is available for modern San Diego; but, for those of us with no knowledge of the SD area, landmarks, industries, road or neighborhood names, signature structures or geologic features of the RR or territory in the 1960s that Yannis is modeling, would it be possible to post some RR system maps from the 1950s or 60s, Sanborn Insurance maps from the 40s or 50s, 1960s aerial views, or just general pics of the relevant industries or signature landmarks from 22nd Street Yard past the ATSF Depot, the industries (north?) of the depot and (south?) of Miramar Hill, and between Miramar Hill and the waterfront? (I followed Jake's link to see Pendleton Naval Base but don't yet have a clear understanding of where it might be appropriately located on Yannis' layout...and I haven't had time yet to do any exploring in Google Maps.)

    Yannis, you've mentioned an interest in modeling the fruit packing plant, canning factory, and the ATSF Depot, but you have also been very open to new possibilities, and currently seem to still be in the information gathering stage. AFTER you have gathered sufficient info about the industries, and when you feel ready to start the process of narrowing your focus and setting some priorities on what you want and don't want regarding industries on your layout, here is a process that was helpful in my planning, and might be for you.
    Could you (and Jake?) compile a list of the major industries served by rail in the 1960s between the 22nd Street Yard and the north end of the waterfront? Add in other out-of-the-area industries that you would like to include by your modeler's license.
    1. List the actual (and insert the modeler's license extra) industries in order from North Staging south to Miramar Hill and those from MH down to the ATSF Depot and the 22nd Street Yard.
    2. Establish about how much shelf along the mainline you have for the north waterfront industries, the industries near the south waterfront, the industries from the south waterfront to the fruit packing plant, the distance without industries around the Miramar Hill peninsula, the industries that would go deep into the end of the aisle, industries that would be on the other side of the backdrop from South waterfront, those opposite north waterfront, industries along the top of the layout, those from the upper right corner down to the Depot, those near the Depot, and, finally, those near the Yard.
    3. Determine a (very rough) estimate of how much shelf along the mainline will be needed to model each of the industries.
    4. For the x number of feet along the north waterfront, choose from among the actual (or extra) industries that were along the north waterfront, the 1, 2, or 3 that you most want to include on your layout. Then, from the list of actual/extra industries in the south waterfront, select 1, 2, or 3 that you want to include on your layout. Repeat for every section.
    5. On a large printout of your track plan, pencil in approximate sidings/spurs and buildings for each selected industry in each of the layout areas. Obviously, you will have to make a million adjustments (discarding some industries, drastically reconfiguring or even re-sizing others, and you may need to shift boundaries between two areas to take more industrial real estate from one area and give it to their neighbor); but, in the end, you will keep your most preferred industries and eliminate those with a lower priority.
    6. Eventually, the final industries will become more settled and you will shift past choosing industries and will get into refining specific track arrangements. If you don't have a lot of prior experience in operations, this would be a good time to post your track plan and get others' input and opinions about the operational aspects of your track configurations, so you can make an informed decision about track placement in and around your industries (e.g., switching convenience vs switching puzzles; number of trailing vs facing points [and location of run-arounds], switchbacks and length of sidings and spurs, number and type of industrial spots per industry; also S-curves, uncoupler placement, coupling/uncoupling issues regarding operator access.
    7. Ultimately, you may want to post a floor plan showing how staging in the other part of the house will look. Will it include provisions for reversing trains arriving from either end or only one? (That is, will you be running all trains from 22nd Street to the waterfront and back, as a turn; or will you run trains from 22nd Street to North Staging in one op session, run them through a reversing loop between sessions, and then send them back southward in the next operating session? And will you then send them through the 2nd reversing loop to go north again during the 3rd op session?)

    In the 1960s, were there a lot of industries crowded directly next to each other all the way from the Depot to Miramar Hill (so 5 to 8 industries could be set right next to each other on your layout, or were the industries somewhat scattered/separated by fields or lots of non-rail businesses (so only 2 or 3 rail-served industries could be appropriately represented in the available space from the Depot to Miramar Hill)? Could the naval base or some of the industries be represented by a double-ended siding (a 3rd track next to the double main or next to the main track and industrial track), so cars for that industry would be set out by a roadswitcher on the industry's siding for a virtual (not modeled) industrial switcher to spot in the industry (which would only be modeled as just some signature rooftops and/or smokestacks behind some trees and a fence rather than actual 3D tracks and structures). Then other industries (that aren't large enough to need their own switcher), would have multiple tracks/structures/spots for the roadswitcher to set out/pick up cars. Having the largest industries represented by just 3- or 4-car sidings or a spur that holds 5 or 6 cars but leaves only 1 or 2 cars visible, will offer the switching action of a major company, but will only take up the layout real estate of a small or medium-sized industry.

    Do you plan to model any industries (or interchanges) south of Miramar Hill that ship/receive the same types of cars as an industry (or interchange) north of Miramar Hill? If so, it might be possible to set up connecting tracks through the backdrop so cars delivered to one industry by the morning shift roadswitcher, are picked up at the other industry by the afternoon roadswitcher. With open loads, this could also work as loads in/empties out. This lets a modeler double the amount of daily rail traffic without needing to double how many cars are on the layout at any moment. And, of course, an operating layout could always use some industries that could be served by both the morning AND afternoon roadswitchers, so cars from the 22nd Street Yard that are spotted in an industry for loading/unloading, cleanout, washing, icing, or holding in the morning, must be moved within the plant by the afternoon crew...in-plant moves can create more switching action without increasing how many different industries need to be modeled.
     
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  14. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Dave,

    There is oldmapsonline which is very helpful in understanding how an area was in the era of interest. I am using this in conjunction to google maps (oldmapsonline is like historic google maps of some sort). On top of that, I got a few of books on the surfline but they mostly address rolling stock and passenger ops and not industries. (I think I got most of them actually, with one exception which I am waiting in the mail).

    I am still open with respect to choosing industries to add. However this discussion has mostly sorted out my questions and missing links. To the ones I have originally chosen, namely Brewery, (Aero) Manufacturing, Warehousing, Cannery, and Fruit Packing I will also include Jake’s recommendations for Paint and Lumber, Ice House and most probably the Quarry. Having seen where the quarries were located though, it appears there were not anywhere near the coast. Maybe I can place one on the location where I have the fruit packing and get the fruit packing on the coast. A Granite one near Santee looks promising so most probably I ll opt for this one.

    I would be much obliged to get more recommendations about industries and they are more than welcome. Having said that, I already got more help than I imagined here by both you and Jake and I do not want to over-use your help.

    The steps you mention are VERY helpful and will have them in mind. Putting most of these steps in use (Location wise and scenery wise, as per the trackplan) I am sort of settled to:
    1. Having the major concentration in the “industrial area” before Miramar (south of the Hill) (5-7 industries, this includes Brewery, Lumber, Paint, Manufacturing and Warehouse) .
    2. 1 or 2 industries north of the hill (or near the top, most probably the Quarry here and/or the fruit packing).
    3. And 1-3 on the coast (Cannery, Fruit Packing and Ice House, and/or Naval Facility).
    After doing more reading around, (track schematics and sidings) it seems that some industries were in Old Town and one or two in the area of Morena / Pacific beach. Then you have the Miramar spur on top of the hill with more industries. Going north, another concentration of industries is in Oceanside, the two branches (Fallbrook and Escondido) contain more industries while bits and pieces are between Oceanside and Del-Mar. A lot of the industries were in an area I chose not to model, namely between the depot in SD and National City (harbor area).

    About the Naval base, going again with the historical map, it looks like there was one double ended siding where the Fallbrook wye / junction is. I suppose this is where the railroad dropped cuts of cars.

    PS. With respect to staging yard, it is a double ended staging yard and the idea is that the locomotives with runaround the train in order to make the return trip exactly as the prototype did both for freight and passenger trains. The yard being in the open (and not lower level) will be a fiddle yard as well for creating new trains or changing elements in existing ones. A simple manual turntable might be added at some point to handle non-double headed diesels and steam locomotives.

    Thanks again for the very generous help!

    Yannis
     
  15. SandyEggoJake

    SandyEggoJake TrainBoard Member

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    Lot to add... just short on time at the tick.


    You might wish to watch this, starting at ~21 min http://www.pbs.org/video/2185484665/

    One item... I'd advise that runaround / waycar track to connect before the yard throat. Otherwise, it will be tough to lash the caboose as well as effectively use by your switch. And I would still add some industry sidings to the east of the 22nd yard in and among your buildings.

    Just wanted to suggest another cool structure for your build:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Full-Siz...890372?hash=item212615e704:g:gdkAAOSwk5FUxZ1j

    Would be perfect for background north of the 22nd yard. (If you buy, I'll take a digital scan of this "horribly oversized" that I could shrink to 1:160.)

    Yannis, can we assume the return track would be an exposed "shelf type" single track run around? If so, don't ignore the modeling possibilities of it. Much of San Diego country - especially the branches ... was long single track. So having even a 20 cm wide shelf would provide lot of added optionality for a HO layout. (And even far more if in N ... no, I will not stop). For me, layout needs to take into account all parts of an op session... sooo .... can you sketch more - at least about your area reserved for staging?

    Also, in your layout designated area, can one assume the available space is floor to ceiling, and there are no windows on that wall?

    If ever in San Diego, we have huge amounts of info for you. I would suggest spending hours (ok...days) first online and then in person at the San Diego History Center. Includes tons (literally) of photos, plans for the depot, Sanborn maps etc, etc. Right next door is the San Diego Model Railroad museum, where key for you is the library up stairs of which I am on staff. The museum has two massive layout of the era and subject you seek to build, on in N and one in HO.
     
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  16. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Jake thanks for the link very interesting!!! Confirms my thoughts for interesting switching south of the ATSF depot (with the SP / SD&AE).

    The Villa looks very nice and an interesting building for me to design and scratchbuild, however i am going for a more "downtown" urban feeling for the SD area in my layout, think backgrounds like the hotel El-Cortez etc... and buildings like the Palisade for the foreground ....

    Yes the return track is shelf type as narrow as possible in order to be unobtrusive for the rest of the basement area which will be strictly reserved for other uses. As i may have mentioned earlier, i opted for this solution instead of a helix at each end of the layout (plus lower level staging). The two walls against which the layout is placed most probably will not have any windows (unfortunately i am only in the design phase for the house... several things must fall into place before...). So the wall will have backdrop / valance / lighting up to the ceiling. I ll try to post a plan including staging soon.

    Got it for the runaround in the yard, i ll try to fix this!

    If ever in San Diego, i bet i ll have a tons of things to do and what you mentioned are top of the list! The La Mesa RR club layout looks impressive and it has been a big source of inspiration.

    I have spent some hours reading about the Quarries in the area... very interesting industry, i ll place a granite quarry for sure where i originally planned the fruit packing house. Granite quarry, dimensional stone & odd shaped boulders. Should be easy to model, with a cut on the hillside showing granite (so i ll show just a slice of the otherwise too large to model quarry), a couple of cranes, a gantry crane for loading flat cars and gondolas, and a tractor + a building (if needed) for dimensional stone processing, though it might be redundant (the processing building) and i can have the cut rocks/stones piled and then loaded onto cars w/o any processing in-between.

    Question: for example, lets say on the Miramar hill of 2% incline, I have a spur leading to the quarry (or any other industry). The spur itself will be horizontal after a small transition off the mainline. The train performing the switching though will leave some cars parked with the brakes-on, on the mainline (or at a siding) which will be at a 2% slope. Was this common/uncommon in practice? Or did the prototype avoid such situations? (Thinking about mountain railroading though, i bet most situations where like the one i just described with spurs off a mainline at a slope).
     
  17. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Good morning everyone.

    As a follow up to my previous question concerning the siding/spur on a grade, I have been looking into adding industries on the 22st yard area. Operationally, would industries next to the yard make sense? Would they be switched by a switcher? Would the local freight simply switch them before departing towards the north?
     
  18. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I looked at San Diego maps today, trying to get some ideas for industries and track configurations around the 22nd Street Yard.

    Using the OldMapsOnline site, on a 1996 National City 1:24,000 topo map, I found a station at 24th Street, and tracks and buildings from about 17th Street to 24th Street. This map also shows a lot more tracks and some buildings running south from 24th Street along Paradise Creek and Sweetwater Marsh (to, maybe, 32nd Street??). Was the station located farther north in the era you will be modeling? Or, at some point in the past, did the 22nd Street Yard tracks extend all the way from 17th down to the buildings by Sweetwater Marsh...so a station positioned on the north side of 24th Street would have been in about the middle of the 22nd St Yard?

    Starting at about 13th Street, there is a track that leads south to a number of industries closer to the waterfront west of Tidelands Ave, and from a wye east of Tidelands Ave (and a block or two northwest of the station) down to a channel that separates National City and Chula Vista.

    Just for a common reference, let's call:
    the area from 13th Street to the wye and the waterfront industries = Area A
    17th Street to 24th = Area B
    24th Street to "32nd?" = Area C.
    For Area B, behind 3 or 4 yard tracks, you could model spurs and 3D structures, building flats and backdrop pics of industries; and in front of the yard tracks, you could model the station in 3D, but just spurs and loading docks between the yard tracks and the fascia (so there were no buildings to hinder access to couple/uncouple cars in the yard or industries).
    For Area C south of 24th Street, you could model Paradise Creek and Sweetwater Marsh behind 3 or 4 yard tracks and a main; and, in front of the yard tracks , there could be spurs and loading docks parallel with the yard tracks, and farther to the right, spurs angled toward the fascia to pass in front of 3D buildings that stand in front of the main. Or you could model more yard and engine tracks, instead of the angled spurs and industries.

    Although not exactly like the prototype, the Area A industries might be represented by positioning them along the main beginning at the southern end of the 22nd Street Yard, instead of along a track that started north of the yard near 13th Street. On your layout, the industries could be located along the wall between 22nd Street Yard and the staging yard on a 6 inch wide shelf that bulges out to 9 or 10 inches for each industry spur or siding.

    I looked for Miramar Hill but couldn't locate it between National City and Old Town San Diego ...or even any higher terrain near the tracks. I DID find a Miramar road and some gravel pits in La Jolla. Am I looking in the right area? I found a 1967 Point Loma 1:24,000 map with lots of waterfront tracks north of Indian Point and south of the Coronado Bay Bridge. Is this the waterfront area you are modeling at the left of your plan?
     
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  19. Yannis

    Yannis TrainBoard Member

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    Dave many thanks for another detailed reply.

    The ATSF’s 22nd street freight yard is north of Coronado Bridge. The yard you mentioned which you saw in oldmapsonline is a different yard in National city and not San Diego, near another different 22nd street (confusing, I know...). The associated industries and spurs in A, B and C are much further down to the south beyond my layout’s southern end. Thank you very much for the thoughts and plans though! I think that Jake’s layout/plan is in that area for the SD&AE railroad.

    The Point Loma map you refer to, is the one that contains the ATSF’s 22nd street yard that I plan to model. Lots of switching going on from what I can make out, north of the yard in the area of Gas Lamp Quarter. I have updated the trackplan to have 2-3 industries opposite the yard in this area (which i brought near the yard instead of north of the yard as it is in the prototype). Now i need to research the Gas Lamp Quarter rail served industries.

    Miramar hill can be seen in maps of La Jolla (1967-1970 one is the one I am based) (the southern side of the hill) can be seen in this map. Del Mar (same scale, dates) map continues showing the peak of the hill and the northern part of it leading to Sorrento Valley and to Torrey Pines and Del Mar (the coast).

    The waterfront area on the left of my layout (the northern-most part) is loosely based on the area between Torrey Pines bridge and Oceanside.

    Going from south to north you have in sequence (also appearing in my layout).

    1. 22nd street freight yard as described above. Starting a bit northern from where Coronado bridge is now.

    2. Gas lamp Quarter, Lots of sidings / industrial spurs here. (This is the area I am going to add to the right of the 22nd street yard that Jake proposed, instead of north of the yard using selective compression)

    3. ATSF San Diego Passenger Depot, between Broadway and Ash street.

    4. Old Town / Cudahy, a few sidings / industries here, from what I can make out of the trackplans of the area (main industrial area containing Aero-parts manufacturer, Brewery, Warehouse, Paint, Lumber industries.)

    5. Miramar Hill (scenic area, including the highway overpass, roadside diner we were discussing)

    6. Sorrento Valley (Quarry industry here). Horizontal industrial siding coming off the mainline (which is at a 2% incline). Here i ll have to park cars on the mainline at an incline while i switch this industry.

    7. Torrey Pines (Start of the Coast line area), might add the concrete bridge (highway overpass)

    8. Del Mar (Coastal)…. other coastal towns/areas...Oceanside (Coastal), (Cannery, Ice house, Fruit packing industries, near either an actual or fictional coastal town).
    I am making some polishing up on the track plan in order to post it soon.
     
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  20. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Uh-oh...I (erroneously) thought the southern end of San Diego's 22nd Street (which I generously estimated might be about where Crosby Street is marked) was too far from the tracks compared to the Nat'l City 22nd St, and that the 1:1 station at Broadway was disproportionately too far north and close to all the 1:1 San Diego waterfront industries when compared to the station's relationship to the 22nd St Yard and the waterfront industries on your plan. The fact that I couldn't find Miramar Hill nor any structure labeled "station" near the Coronado Bay Bridge, should have tipped me off to my error.

    Thanks for listing the industries (and scenery) you plan to associate with the 8 towns/places.

    Does "to the right of the 22nd St Yard" mean the gas lamp area industries will go between the yard tracks and the backdrop against the right wall, or does it mean to the right along the mainline (and around the corner to head toward staging)? Either way, your space for modeling any of the industries will be narrow (maybe 6 to 10 inches??)...and, if you put the industries between the yard and backdrop, you will have a very long reach to couple/uncouple any cars in the industries.

    Would it be possible to gain a little more depth for industries by modeling the 22nd St Yard as a short and narrow (24 inches) dog-leg peninsula that runs parallel to the right edge of the non-layout area? There would be a 24 inch aisle by the non-layout space. To access the back of the yard (or any industries?) on the back of the peninsula, there would be a very narrow aisle (20-22"); and along the bottom 6-10 feet of the right wall and around the corner, there would be a 12-16 inch deep shelf with industries. The shelf across the bottom of the plan from the lower right corner to the non-layout area would continually narrow until it was at its minimum depth to pass through the non-layout area and would widen/deepen again as it curved into the staging area.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017 at 9:50 PM
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