Noobie model railroader wannabe evolving forever slowly (Warning: Wall of Text ahead)

caxu Oct 17, 2017

  1. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    I feel like throwing my thoughts out here because in the "real world" I don't have anyone to talk to about this.

    About two months ago I decided I wanted to get back into Model Railroading and after visiting several Open Houses I'm very slowly narrowing down how to go forward.

    Say 5 to 10 years ago I was in the same scenario I am today only then I was deciding between Z and N scale and eventually put it on the back burner.

    Upon entering the hobby today due to some eye issues it looks like TT scale would be at a minimum but let me share my thoughts on other scales.

    TT: Initially I thought this would be the neatest scale to model in since it's so rare in the US. It fits that sweet spot between N and HO. However to make this work I will need to get involved with a club and find individuals who can show me the ropes to scratch building because American locomotives and rolling stock are rare. For now this is in the back of my head.

    O: I thought I might do this scale but I have seen some horror stories between the two titans Lionel and MTH in regards to quality, with someone coining the phrase "Chionel." I don't make the big bucks but even if I did I would expect better treatment to customers than what I've witnessed. Some people have had to send their locomotives back several times in a row and always on their dime. The only brand that seems to cut it would be Weaver but they are now defunct and I would worry about parts. I could always join a O scale club but don't want to drive 40 minutes each way to spend time figuring out what Lionel/MTH did wrong.

    S: This scale shares some of my concerns in O in that both Lionel and MTH have. I could go with American Models but I worry if the owner decides to retire what I would be able to do in the future. The one AM Diesel that I love is out of stock and I haven't bothered to find out if it will return. I think it would be an awkward email to ask "Hey how soon are you to retirement? Are you going to pull a Weaver?"

    N: I'm just not feeling it. It makes the most sense in that if I ever lose the basement due to a move that it would fit just about anywhere but I keep resisting it.

    HO: This is the gold standard - With the exception of Japan (N) - I don't think there is a more popular scale worldwide. Literally everything is being made in this, I don't have to travel 50 miles to find a hobby shop that carries some esoteric unpopular scale. I just wish it was a little bigger. As a bonus it will work with European OO scale but again - that would be Bachmann and I hear of quality problems on those as well.

    So as of this post the results are:

    1.) HO (likely the winner)
    2.) TT scratch build (would probably learn the most from this - that appeals to me)
    3.) S - I am attending S-Fest this year and will need some strong salesmen to convince me to go to S. If Lionel/MTH hadn't been dropping the ball so badly I'd feel less apprehensive and this might be my #1 pick.

    I guess the most important thing is my wife. She and I talked about this and said if I wanted to get into Model Railroading she would support me; at the same time I feel a responsibility to make the best decision possible and not buy into a manufacturer that is sending out garbage.

    Thanks for listening.
     
  2. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

    5,508
    2,011
    98
    Good thoughts all, but I do have a few questions.

    What kind of space do you have and what kind of layout do you envision?

    That may dictate scale as much as some of the things you mentioned.

    On O scale, I'm a little confused, you mention MTH and Lionel, but those are just the tin plate makers. Atlas O exists for scale items and it's quite good. There are others. Also, On30, if narrow gauge floats your boat has Bachmann and others. It is an option. And of course, a layout built for On30 can run 00 and H0 equipment should you desire.
     
  3. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    Upstairs probably 4x10 maximum, in the basement I can go much larger than this; not necessarily wide but longer.

    As far as layout in the beginning I want to keep it very "loose." That means using track that uses Kato style uni-joiners. I definitely don't want to nail/screw anything down for a little while.

    You mention MTH and Lionel as tin plate makers - I'm confused by your statement. I know that MTH does have a "Tin Plate Traditions" line up but overall I'm looking for non-tin plate trains.

    Regarding narrow gauge I thought about doing TTn3 (also known as TT9/NZ120) but again I would need to find someone to teach me scratch building. I've seen On30 but get the feeling that using TT narrow gauge might look a little less out of place.

    Out of all the trains I've seen I know I eventually would like to mess with steam but overall I really, really, -one-more-, really like both the GE Evolution Hybrid and EMD Electro Motive Demo diesels. I can't put my finger on the latter but it's something I enjoy. I don't drive a hybrid car or even something that could be considered a fuel sipper - but the idea of a modern diesel using the most advanced fuel saving technology possible really appeals to me.

    As a noobie I am absolutely confused by people who run smoke in their diesels. I have never seen a diesel train smoke as much as the models unless it was broken or had hundreds of thousands of miles on it. And that's another thing another certainty is no smoke - I just don't want it for a variety of reasons.
     
  4. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    67,560
    22,733
    653
    The room size you provide would be rather limiting for "S" (scale or gauge/tinplate), and even more so with "O" in either format. Not saying you should choose otherwise, if these sizes are what will make you happy.

    Tinplate- Nickname from the many decades, for the tubular style of track used by many makers, American Flyer (O & S), Lionel (O & S), Marx, MTH, and many more going back one hundred and more years. Also referred to as "gauge". Equipment looks more toy like. Scale is the two rail which much, much more closely depicts the real world tracks, and trains we see passing by.

    Smoke in diesels can be too much. Even the famous ALCo units, although tagged as "honorary steam" engines, did not usually smoke as do some toys.
     
  5. porkypine52

    porkypine52 TrainBoard Member

    1,131
    301
    35
    You sound like you should belong to a Model Railroading Club. Get some HANDS ON modeling. Any clubs in your area? Check around you might be surprised. I was a member of an NTRAK club in Louisville, and am a 30+ year member of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). There are at least 3-4 clubs in the Falls City area alone, plus several groups who meet at different people's home every week or two. Pick a scale and somebody most likely has a club or group in the scale.
    I don't get the idea about TT scale. Not much rolling stock is made for it and you will become a scratch builder by default. But to each, their own. If you want to go with TT, GO FOR IT! Side note: TTn3? Can't see that at all (my own opinion).
    So where is HOME? Plenty of different modelers live all over the country, JOIN US!! And have FUN.
     
  6. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

    5,508
    2,011
    98
    Agree on the club.

    Back to MTH and Lionel. MTH does make scale models in HO and (maybe? In O?) but they are best known in O for their 3 rail. Lionel, to my knowledge does not make scale anything...at least nothing of quality.

    Also, just to add more jargon, Lionel and MTH Tinplate are generally called O27.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't try your hand at a Lionel/MTH layout, just that it's a different beast from a Scale layout.
     
  7. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    I'm in the Chicagoland area and locally we have an HO/N scale club and further out there is a O scale club.

    The issue I might have though is pretty much all these clubs are DCC only. From what little I understand these components are one of the reasons why locomotives aren't as reliable as they used to be. But at least that's what I get out of comments I read. I imagine DCC makes their lives easier with having so much going on at one time.

    With buzzwords I've picked up from the Internet I think the layout I am looking at is "plywood pacific." I'm more interested in running trains than anything but would also like to have some of my own. Maybe I would model a specific city that has meaning to me but I don't think I would want to plant individual blades of grass if you understand my meaning.
     
  8. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    You know ... something has occured to me. A lot of the hate towards Lionel and MTH usually ends up with the word CHINA. But if I am correct, almost all the market (all scales) has products coming from China. So is it just a case of a bad factory producing the O scale models?
     
  9. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

    5,508
    2,011
    98
    In this case, it isn't so much China. MTH and Lionel (in O) are making product like the old Toy Trains. It's not to Scale. There's nothing wrong with it. If that's what you want, then go for it.

    The confusion is two fold

    1: Generally people don't think of TOy Train Lionel and Scale train TT/HO/N at the same time. They are different beasts. Equally good depending on your goal, but different.

    2: YOu talk about them being "bad" but MTH is generally considered quite good and Lionel is only bad with some of their old HO stuff.

    So I guess I'm trying to parse your thoughts.

    If all you want is a place to run some trains. Then Lionel/MTH O27 may be perfect for you.
     
  10. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    Here are some videos on how I formed my opinions between Lionel and MTH:



     
  11. Mr. Trainiac

    Mr. Trainiac TrainBoard Member

    1,540
    2,131
    46
    To be honest, I would recommend HO scale. If you have a 4’ depth layout, O probably won’t fit. I see N scale with it’s long trains and big scenery, but detailing and building can be hard that small. You seem interested in building TT scale, but it is hard to find. HO track, buildings, and trains can be found anywhere, whether it is a kit or pre-built. You can always custom build in HO, with the advantage of more parts and a scale easier to build in. If you get bored making everything, you can always go to a hobby store and buy a ready to roll model, and not have to ship one from Europe.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    acptulsa likes this.
  12. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    That isn't the room size but the size of a table comfortably fitting in it.


    Quick update:

    Narrow Gauge: Not interested. The trains look bizarre (to me) like a top heavy body builder or a bobble head.

    TT:
    No longer pursuing (You've helped me come to my senses.)

    N: After doing some research the only locomotive I would buy is the Kato GE ES44AC Demo. It has been out of stock for some time so I would need to hit the train shows. There are other demonstrators in N but no recent Diesels. A home layout with one locomotive seems restricting but at the same time comforting to the wallet. At a minimum I will seek this engine out for use in a club.

    O: You guys are correct and my eyes are bigger than my available space at home. I'm going to visit a club in November to talk to someone about what its like to be a club member there. I haven't decided if I will buy any rolling stock for myself for use in the club.

    S: Have you ever heard the rock song "The Final Count Down" by Europe? Well S-Fest is my count down. A little over one week from now I will trek out to S-Fest and try to get a feel of where things are going in this scale. I think I can fit a layout in my basement but I have a lot of concerns regarding available quality product. I've been lurking in the Yahoo S gauge newsgroups and the content is depressing. It's nothing but obituaries and "the end is nigh" which doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.

    HO: So here is where I'm at. Unless S-Fest knocks my socks off it's HO all the way baby. It has the greatest number of Modern Diesel demonstrators which appeal to me. Some folks are into steam, tinplate, or a specific company: I just love modern Diesel demonstrators; just the way it is. I will need to spend some time however trying to narrow down who makes the absolute best. I would sacrifice rivets for a bullet proof unit. Another thing of importance is weight - which is what I like about O and S so I'm not sure if Brass is going to be involved.

    I will give another update after S-Fest. Thanks for everyone's comments and patience so far.
     
  13. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    67,560
    22,733
    653
    OK. Table size. Got it. I was thinking more of a room outline, as so many use around the wall/shelf type construction today. It is very popular, works great in any scale, for maximizing potential.

    Please take photos at "S Fest", and give us a report....
     
  14. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

    5,677
    580
    82
    Lots of interesting discussion here.

    Scale is just one of those personal feeling things, one just gravitates toward a scale, or two. I personally have had N, HO, O, S, G. I still have models in 3 scales, just because. Each had its charm.

    Then you get onto the issue of prototype. These days all the magazines are pushing hyper realistic super detailed layouts with realistic operation. I can't stomach all of that because I am fairly into a strange mix of realism and toy train on my layouts. That is just my take on it.

    Cost IS an issue as well. New models are expensive. I tend to collect cheap old crap and love to fiddle with the mechanisms.

    As you mentioned DCC is an issue. I would say that if you have not tried it, then you can't really make a judgment on it. Get a cheap starter set like Bachmann makes and just toy around with it a bit. They have cheap DCC locos too.

    Another thing is what type of layout you plan to build. Again we're being told that we we want is hyper realistic switching layouts that are point to point. I personally am always trying to re-kindle that glassy eyed feeling when all I had was an oval of track and one spur. Like you I am a loner modeler. I plan to build a very simplistic layout that I can just run my trains in circles on. I also plan to not follow ANY prototype. I like to collect older trains. I mostly have european HO scale trains. I will run whatever train I want just because on this particular day I like the color red, or blue, or both.

    The bigger concern is actually having a layout. Most model railroaders are always planning that dream layout. More and more I advise people to just build a small layout they can get trains running on quickly. And once it's built, to keep it, while the super duper wonder layout is either being planned or built. My one note of "Best Advice": just get a layout going even if it's one of those Atlas track plan ones, or one of those Kalmbach small layouts.

    You mentioned eye issues, have you considered On30? HO scale track and layout sizes running narrow gauge O scale models.

    My personal new favorite style of Model Railroading is what the english are doing. They build stations and yards indoors that are fully detailed like a layout should be, but they put the mainline outside in their garden so that they can build miles of track.





    I think garden railways are something most people can't wrap their heads around, but it's something that most of us could use these days as houses get smaller, and many people do not own their homes. There are some people who have built layouts on apartment balconies because of a lack of space.

    Most important though; I do think having some kind of basic running track is something most model railroaders do not bother to have, so they don't actually get to run trains very often.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  15. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    I didn't take photos because I have a flip phone; however here is someone else's report: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/2017-fall-s-fest

    I only went today (Saturday) and spent more time driving than I was actually there.

    So I didn't count the number of tables however I'd have to say there were at least over 80. The info I received on the SFest site said 170 vendor tables maybe... maybe not. Seems rather high.

    Anyway, I give up on this scale. Nearly all of the tables had identical locomotives. Sure there were a lot of cars but extremely little new stuff.

    The prices on some items were absolute bananas. "Rare"? BS! This entire row of tables has at least 20-30 of what you have! Each locomotive had many multiples of copies and the prices were from fantasy island.

    I didn't see any presence by Lionel which is crazy. Apparently American Models is building a new factory so they weren't there.

    MTH can suck it. No catalog since 2013 and are cowards to come forth and provide ANY info what so ever. The only communication they have with the S scale community is to unload their overstock of S Helper cars on a neighboring O Scale site. AFAIK they haven't delivered on their 2016 club cars yet.

    I'm calling it - as soon as their current inventory is depleted they (MTH) are gone from the S scale scene (and debatable by some if they were ever truly in.)

    I also decided to pull the plug on any ambitions in O scale. I don't think I will join their club after all. I will however visit during open houses. The numerous stories both from Youtube reviews and real people have left a sour taste. Lionel's quality seems dodgy and both them and particularly MTH service departments leave something to be desired.

    So that leaves HO and N. At the moment there are more accessible locomotives that I personally like in HO; there were some in N but they are out of production and can't say when I will get a hold of them. Making things particularly difficult for me I visited a N/HO Model Railroad club and started falling for N. Truly when you stare at N scale for an hour or so and then look at HO that starts to look like S scale. :cool:

    I'm going to visit Trainfest in Milwaukee in a couple of weeks to get a better feel for what is possible in each scale and maybe even try to find these rare N locomotives.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  16. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

    5,677
    580
    82
    Sorry to hear about your experience at that train show.

    The industry is changing. Perhaps one of the big flaws in the model railroading business is that they embraced internet box houses. Or, certainly they did nothing to help even the playing field between brick and mortar and E-tailers.

    The end result is that one cannot go into a store and pick up and look at a model for the most part. It's all online. Kids don't see train sets running anymore. Perhaps the biggest attraction to our hobby is when kids see layouts. Those of us who are older can recall how stores always had xmas setups, somewhere in the store, if not in a front window.

    As to the scales in general. After the release of HO scale it quickly became the primary scale for most model railroaders. O and S scale came to be known as the brass hat scales because of the tendency to use brass locos that came from asia, or in some cases were home made.

    N scale took a long time to catch up to HO scale. Perhaps Gordon Odegard's articles in Mr magazine had a huge influence as he began to build scale layouts in N. And, also the advances in technology also helped out. The difference between the old mechanisms and the molding technology between say 1970 and 1990 just can't be ignored. If you decide to go for N scale, your choice of loco brand is a huge impact on your enjoyment. I sold off all my cheap bad running junk and only used KATO and Atlas on my layout. There are other quality lines out there now, but they too will be in the higher price range.

    Another thing one should consider is how much recreational income people have now, compared to earlier times. In my city people are paying easily half, or more of their income on rents. Our economy has changed and will likely never be back to boom days of before.

    Of course there have been things that weigh in on the plus side; such as Thomas the Tank Engine and Harry Potter along with some other train themed kids movies. At the same time, kids can now simply play trains on computers.

    I would say that either N, or HO, is a good modeling scale. But... You never know! If you like to actually build things, maybe getting some of the older cheap O scale models and super detailing them is your thing, the same goes for On30.

    Until it closed down I lived very close to the worlds largest model train store - Caboose Hobbies. As most of us do, I have waffled between scales over the years. At one point I considered going back to HO from N scale. I did a lot of wandering the aisles of the store examining products.

    The items I looked at were things like structures and track and bridges - all the infrastructure of a layout. Despite the myth that had been perpetuated by many N scalers about HO, I found that HO also had holes in it's product ranges. Switching to HO wasn't going to solve any problems either. And while N scale did not have certain items that modelers wanted, HO did not have other items that a modeler might want. the big argument related to the size of HO catalogs vs. N scale ones. The thing is, HO had a lot more detail parts. It also had a lot more sub-categories like traction and narrow gauge, or even foreign railways.

    Even big E-tailers are now reducing their stock on obscure detail parts because model railroaders do not scratch build as much as they used to. And the fringe modelers are getting a lot less support for their side of the hobby.

    You mentioned being in the Chicago Land area. I bet you can find some model train stores there. Go see if you can look at track and trains in person there to see what you decide between the two remaining scales.
     
  17. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

    5,508
    2,011
    98
    It sounds to me like what you really want it what we might call Ready to Run...and if that's the case then for sure HO is your best bet.

    S scale is for tinkers. Sure American Flyer/Lionel and some small manufacturers, but the options are always going to be more limited. HO will at least for now have the most options at high quality.
     
  18. caxu

    caxu TrainBoard Member

    54
    3
    3
    Let me ask you what you think about the following companies.

    First off, I will not ask about Kato. Since I started researching Model Trains the only company that seems unscathed in the quality department (or should I say Internet reviewers) would be Kato. That doesn't mean they don't occasionally have problems but in terms of units sold vs. problems they seem to be the leader. They also seem to have really good customer service.

    Ok, the other companies. What do you think about them?
    • Intermountain
    • ScaleTrains
    • Broadway Limited
    • Fox Valley Models
    Why did I single these out? I'm interested in modern/very recent Diesel demonstrators and thus these are the only companies I know of that sell them. Fox Valley Models only has one in N scale, the others are all HO. MTH also sells a GE Demonstrator in HO but I don't want to buy from them.

    So let me know of your thoughts of these four.

    ScaleTrains is currently taking preorders for a Gevo Demo but I'm freaking out because I'm also worried about Intermountain/BLI selling out.
     
  19. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

    5,677
    580
    82
    BLI is pretty much the apex of model train locos, I test ran several at my LHS. Intermountain seems to be up there too, but I have not owned one.

    I don't know the other brands enough to comment.
     
  20. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

    5,508
    2,011
    98
    I love my intermountain ES44AC. Needs some serious tweeking out of the box to get it to consist with other locos...but then that's typical.
     

Share This Page