Considering a switch from Z to N - is the grass greener?

Taymar May 13, 2018

  1. Taymar

    Taymar TrainBoard Member

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    Hello all, I've recently got back into the hobby, and trying my hand at Z scale (used to model OO). While I love the ability to fit more into the same space with Z, I'm feeling a little hampered by the relatively small selection of steam locomotives and structure kits, plus the somewhat finicky task of trying to get older marklin locos to run smoothly and reliably at low speeds.

    My end goal is to create a steam-era coal mining operational layout, which will include switching, automatic coupling/uncoupling. Likely with DCC. I have around a 6'x3' space to work with.

    I'd greatly appreciate any advice on whether a switch to N would likely result in more reliable running and coupling operations, and/or whether there are any other considerations I should think about.

    Thank you very much
     
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  2. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well you do have a larger selection of cars and locos in N scale although it does take a bit more space. The Bachmann newer 2-8-0s have dual mode decoders now and lend themselves well to a coal road plus there are more of the big articulated steamers out there to run the coal on the mainlines. And there are a lot of the early transition era diesels available that ran with steam. Probably more coal industry mines and kits than in Z scale.

    MT has the auto coupling and the under track uncouplers. However any reliable running does depend on the quality of track work and electrical connections. A 3 by 6 foot space does say that the smaller steam locos and 4 axle diesels diesels are best suited for the radiuses you will have.
     
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  3. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    I don't know about greener but the grass is bigger in N scale.

    :D

    Doug
     
  4. bill pearce

    bill pearce TrainBoard Member

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    Several years ago I looked at moving from N to Z. For me it just wouldn't happen. There is an apalling lack of depth in locos and rolling stock. It's as if the manufacturers have a list of road name s and check each off when a model is produced. Santa FE? we did a GP35. Done with that. SP? knocked out an SD40. Done with them. UP? Did an FA. That's done. Or they do a covered hopper and that's it for that road name. Or a chair car and that's it for that one.

    Oh, and don't forget everything is more expensive.

    It would have been so nice, I could have modeled the Tehachapi loop to scale.
     
  5. Taymar

    Taymar TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you guys, some good food for thought here. While most of my locos will be smaller 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 switcher types, I would like to have one or two larger mainline steam locos, perhaps on an outer loop. If I kept that track fairly close to the edge, think I could get away with a 17" radius without derailment issues? I was considering a GS-3 loco specifically, although something even bigger would be good too. Thanks again!
     
  6. Metro Red Line

    Metro Red Line TrainBoard Member

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    There's a lot more selection in N and the quality is leaps and bounds over what it was 15 years ago. A lot of the "new school" N scale manufacturers likeBLMA (now owned by Atlas), Exactrail, Trainworx, ScaleTrains and others have really changed the game. N is basically a smaller HO now.

    I converted from HO to N almost 12 years ago, but I can't see myself going to Z since there's not as much space advantage as there was from going from HO to N. I do envy the Z scalers for having a Pacific Surfliner set before N and even HO scalers did though!
     
  7. SP_fan_1951

    SP_fan_1951 TrainBoard Member

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    Why not do N and convert your Z stuff to Nn3? Get the best of both worlds...
     
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  8. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett TrainBoard Member

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    I think you will like N scale, Taymar. It seems to be the cheapest scale to model and you can get a lot of railroading in the space you have. Also N scale has a lot of road names to choose from. I model Frisco and their are about 340 models that have been manufactured by several companies. The Bachmann Spectrum
    2-8-0 Consolidation locomotives are great running loco's, I have two that were custom painted by Richard at Challenger N Scale in Tulsa, OK.

    I converted from HO scale to N scale in 1984 and have never regretted it since. Used my wife's maternity check to buy a Santa Fe passenger train set. Started collecting Frisco in 1998 and I now have about 250 N scale items with about 135 being Frisco. One of the guys on frisco.org and here on TrainBoard has well over 300 Frisco models. My favorite trains are three passenger sets and six E-8 locomotives, two of the locomotives are being custom painted by Richard to represent Texas Special E-7's with fluted sides.

    Of course this is just my opinion about N scale, I love it!!!

    Joe

    IMG_20180513_200846.jpg

    IMG_20180513_201022.jpg

    Edit: Spelling error
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  9. HOexplorer

    HOexplorer TrainBoard Supporter

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    Awfully greener. It may hurt you eyes! Jim
     
  10. silentargus

    silentargus TrainBoard Member

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    If you'd said "I love EMD road diesels" then I could recommend a very nice selection of Z-scale models that run as well as anything you'll find in N scale, and a great range of rolling stock to pull with them. Steam, though?

    Unless you want to do a lot of kitbashing, or have a strong interest in German or Japanese steam, N is likely to suit you better. There can't be more than half a dozen mass-produced North American steam locomotives in Z, and with the exception of AZL's light and heavy USRA Mikes, they're all foobies (specifically, a Marklin 4-6-0, a 2-6-0, a 2-8-2, and a 4-6-2, all wearing Americanized shells over a European chassis). There are only a few more if you include limited-run brass models. There are no RTR NA switcher types at all, only a few conversion kits for Marklin's German 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s- and I'm not sure what the availability of those is, because I'm remembering them from a few years ago. There are a lot of wonderful things about Z scale, but a varied selection of steam models just isn't one of those things.
     
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  11. Thomas Davis

    Thomas Davis TrainBoard Member

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    While most of the focus seems to be on locomotives, the OP does mention that he is looking at a steam era coal mining operation. So seems fitting to also point out the array of N scale hoppers and gondolas available, especially all the hoppers that have come from Bluford in the last few years. And those in addition to some excellent cars from Micro-trains and Atlas.
     
  12. EMD F7A

    EMD F7A TrainBoard Member

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    Sweet Frisco steamer, Joe! Did you see a bunch of custom N Frisco's popped up on eBay the last few days?

    And I second this thread; I tried switching too, it didn't work out. Nothing good in my road names or eras, and no decals to make it! Ugh.
     
  13. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    My only foray into Z scale was in the Nn3 level with Z track and Z mechanisms for power under Nn3 shells. Decided early on that the costs were too high and tying to tinker with the small stuff was too much for my eyes. I ended up selling off my Z stuff except for one Class A Climax kit which I reworked to accept a N mechanism. The two biggest sources of Nn3 stuff were Microtrains and Republic Locomotive Works.
     
  14. KE4NYV

    KE4NYV TrainBoard Member

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    You'll find more stuff in N and it's a LITTLE cheaper :D
     
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  15. Taymar

    Taymar TrainBoard Member

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    Wow, thanks again all, wonderful info & advice. Looking at Joe's photos, I can see the additional detail afforded by the larger scale which is very exciting.

    Great call-out on the Nn3 as well. I could certainly see using a few pieces of Z equipment for a narrow gauge mine train or similar.

    I've gone ahead and ordered a couple of inexpensive used N scale locos and some flex track, going to mock up a little loop and get a feel for the potential of scale size in my limited space.

    One other question I have please - my Z scale setup has struggled immensely with more than a few cars and any type of incline. Does the additional weight and power of N scale give a little more leeway when it comes to longer trains and inclines? Nothing too crazy but I'd like to have a figure-8 type crossover if at all possible.

    I massively appreciate all the help here!
     
  16. MK

    MK TrainBoard Member

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    I have a Figure 8 squeezed into a 3' x 5.5' layout, using Woodland Scenics 2% grade. Not an issue at all, even with the smaller locos. At one of our train shows, we had one person pull 79 coal hoppers with two Kato SD70MAC without struggling (level N-Trak). Personally I think one would be able to do it but it wouldn't look cool. :)
     
  17. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    More than a few of us oldtimers have gone the route of adding some extra weight where possible especially in the newer steamers. Tungsten putty usually found at fly fishing shops and at stores who carry Pinewood Derby cars. The putty is moldable. It is also found online. Only one caution though and that is not to unbalance the loco. The other option is a product called Bullfrog Snot that is applied with care to one or more driving wheels creating a traction tire. The diesels do better on grades than most of the newer steam and something like a GP-7 or any of the RS 1, 2, or 3s plus they fit nice in the late steam era and they would do double duty as both a switcher and a road engine. I would try to keep grades under 2% but expect to have to double the power on 2%. And this is coming from a guy who has an 8% grade but pulls that grade with 3 Shays and 1 Class a Climax or four 44 tonners with a short train. Of course this is my branch line and my main line is level and I can get 30 cars over the mainline with my little diesels.
     
  18. MarkInLA

    MarkInLA Permanently dispatched

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    I went from HO to N for some 15 years. After a while N started getting on my nerves, having to deal with such small parts needing fixing, and the available commercial track then being out of scale and flanges too deep.. I eventually went back to HO and will never leave it again.. So, in a similar scenario I'd say go back to N.. I for one would never be able to get a charge from Z scale. Just because it affords a larger RR in the same given space does not validate its usefulness, for me anyway. Sorry, but Z is simply too small to work with or able to produce a realistic depiction of railroading with..Far as tractive effort of N scale engines go, they perform very well, especially with lash-ups of locos; diesel or steam. In fact, in general they are no weaker or poorer performers than HO. Finally, DCC, soundwise, do Z locos even have speakers in them ?? !! Apologies to Z scalers reading this. But that's openly and honestly the way I see things and my best advice for Taymar...
     
  19. DCESharkman

    DCESharkman TrainBoard Member

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    N Scale locomotives can be great pullers, and they may also be dogs depending on who made it. If it is a Kato made locomotive of any type you will have a pretty good puller. While not in your model time frame, I have had 4 Kato SD80MAC's pull a 100 car train up a 3% grade with no issues. The caveat is that they were running on DCC and were nearly perfectly speed matched. As another example, I have seen a buddy run 88 cars with the Athearn Challenger with no issues at all. There are some dog steamers like the Walthers 0-8-0 and the LifeLike steamers, and Bachmann is hit and miss. The 2-8-0's were great, but the Prairie is a dog.

    Just some observations from running on personal layouts and N-Trak show layouts.
     
  20. MarkInLA

    MarkInLA Permanently dispatched

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    Taymar, a tad more bit of advice. Instead of thinking you need to fit a layout as large as possible as to run near the edge of the benchwork, try to come up with something which is more realistic by keeping track away from following the edges. You don't want to one day see your expensive loco and cars fall to the floor in a derailment some call a 'string drop'. And it looks more real when track doesn't follow the rectangular shape of the bench..You could design a RR which makes its way to the mine and then via a wye or a turntable sends the loco('s) back, with same at other end of line. Don't think you have to have a continuous loop of main line track in order to enjoy your trains.. You can create what is a 'point to point' RR where there is, say a turntable and engine house on one end and, say, a wye to turn 'em on the mine end..The mine could be on a higher altitude where coal trains climb up grade with empties and return with loaded hoppers (there are a couple was to deal with depicting empty and loaded cars.) You can still have spurs and some sort of yard tracks coming off the main..I'll leave it here by advising you if you don't already know about it, to look into 'cookie cutter' type of construction..There are numerous posts in Tboard as well as 'how to' books which explain cookie-cutter and other types of construction methods. Try and check them out before proceeding with your bench work..Sorry, if you already know all this. I think Joe's N scale Connie pics (above) says it all as to why to go to N... Anyway, best of luck with your project..M
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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