well got the bug to get back into doing my trains. but in building a good layout there is this new fangled thing called "dcc". sounds good, can control more in a better way....but a what cost? everything i own (and there are a lot of power units). that would need to be changed just to run. read couple - four months worth of pay. getting the correct decoders. and control units (must be wireless if at all). expandable??? how many trains could i even run at home? not many. but controlling turnouts, reverse loop trackage etc. what else can be done with this computer stuff? and Y. tried to search info about this controls..but most links i find only lead to ebay sales pages. tried reading a couple books on them but only got dizzy. do not want to just buy a cheap (start-up) setup then find out i need a bigger one. would rather buy bigger the first time, and not have a controller sitting gathering dust. and good cash...hard to get cash. as i sit here i can see better than forty power units. (very early steam through late 1970's). and twice as many in boxes still stored away. unable to even try and count the rolling stock. used to be in a club with a very big layout to have fun on. where can one find good readable info about these controllers? been to a couple shops but nothing out in the open about then to hold and fondle. sad even the closest hobby shop is a good 100 miles from home. . only time living in the hills can be a problem is when in need of something, now. any leads to help out this old guy? .
the cost is all dependent upon how much power you need. An NCE powercab setup puts out 2.5amps, which is plenty sufficient for most home layouts. and you can buy add on boosters to add 5 amps to its capability at a time. This system MSRP's for $175~ however you can find them for around $120-140 if you look around, I've even seen them go for less than $100 each. However you want wireless. Wireless will increase the cost of that a bit. The radio base station by itself goes for $160MSRP, and expect to add about another 1/3rd to the cost of the throttles. Your limit to how many trains you can run will be the amperage supplied by the system. stationary non-sound DCC decoders will draw virtually no amps while stationary, however moving trains and trains with lights on will draw amps. Using the 2.5amp system I have, I run usually 3 locomotives (sometimes all sound equipped) and all the lights on my layout from that, and rarely do I push 1.2amps on the gauge on the throttle. You'll usually find that as a single operator, you cannot physically operate more than a handfull of trains at one time, so 2.5amp or 2amp starter systems is plenty for a single operator. The beauty of DCC though is that others can operate with you on the same track, if you have enough friends operating with you, you might need a booster to up the power output of the system, these are about the same MSRP as the starter set, but you don't have to buy them right off the bat. You can start with the 2.5amps and if you ever start to run over its capacity, you can step up to a booster. a good link for dcc basics is http://www.dccwiki.com/DCC_Tutorial_(Basic_System) or http://www.awrr.com/dccintro1.html the manufacturers around that I can think of are NCE, Digitrax, CVP, and MRC, however I'm sure there are others I've forgotten. Take a look at their entry level sets and see which one suits your tastes, the only real difference in DCC systems is your preference in how the system flows for you, take a look and see what you like. www.ncedcc.com www.digitrax.com http://www.cvpusa.com/ http://www.modelrec.com/train-controls/dcc.asp
Well worth doing. Sounds like a tight budget. You don't need to convert everything all at once. One or two, here and there.
YES! If you've been away awhile chance are your old locos will have trouble running anyway. Not really worth the effort unless this is an all brass collection.
Packnrat, DCC is very very rewarding as needing way way less wiring under layout, and more so, the independency of trains. No more gapping rail sections to segregate moving and not moving locos. This and sound (sampled, not cheesy fake), on/off lights and the ability through individually programing your loco to behave the way you want them to via your hand held master throttle ( CVs, momentum , steam chuffs synchronized, bell, horn, whistle type/volume , master volume , on and on and on...Plus being able to add daisy-chained panels around the perimeter of layout to walk along with your train , plugging into one then the next while not affecting moving train/trains; hundreds of programming options to boot. So, may be best to build a small to medium size layout, accept moth-balling all or most of your old analog engines (can sell them) and start off fresh and new with 3,4 ,5 new engines with 'sound on board' as this is cheaper and easier than converting your, what ? 40 engines ! I personally favor my NCE PowerCab and 06 ('satellite') , walk around throttle. There seems to be a consensus as to NCE being the most programmable (not sure on that). Another neat thing is using a "Hex Frog Juicer" for no-hands, automatic polarity changing of reverse loops ,wyes, and turntables..(though I throw my one wye by a toggle switch). 3 new engines = $350.00-$500.00-ish , PowerCab=$140 to 175.00- ish and you are runnin' the RR... ( check/compare these items via ebay (at top of TBoard home page). Finally, if you don't have PayPal, sign up for it and shop on line. I've used it many many times without a glitch from it or the dealers, trust wise. ....All the best...Mark
well so far on a test track i have set up. no problems for the motive power working. my very old throttle power supply has a glitch keeps a small amount of juice going so no stopping......anything. as for the dcc sounds like from (geep fan) one can start small and just add to allow more power to run at one time just by adding a booster. no need to buy a new everything. do i have that right? in my area i do not know of anyone into trains. so all alone here. so i can not get too much running on the main at the same time. even if i did what i am going to build can not handle more then two, in a tight squeeze maybe three drivers anywho. but i do love big power lash-ups, and loong trains. (yes everything is weighted). some brass, wish i did have more. and a number of real vintage rolling stock. not just the so called vintage stuff. area i have to work with is about, 9ft X 19 ft. can get a good double-ended yard, with engine and repair buildings, and a turn table. and three loops out of one run with hidden storage tracks on the lower third loop. can do a reversing loop. hope to get in some industrial along part of the (viewable) main. maybe after some time go high with a branch line, after all i do have a ton of old short line stuff. if i owned this place i would dig out under the house, slight slope. standing height one end of the house 40 ft back only three feet height. can do 30 ft wide even. with some posts in the way....but at 55, not sure if my back could hold out doing all that digging. one five gallon bucket at a time out a doorway. then mixing the mud under the house. (truck load not possible, pumpers cost way too much and get the eye of the tax man). but i will look into this "nce" company, as i have not seen any of these thing in real life just online. and note to "MarklnLa" just counted motive power here in this room 78, still in storage ? some in need of repair, bought some damage stuff long back. like back when a athehrn sd45 cost under $20.usd. .
be sure to check and see if the starter set supports a booster, NCE and Digitrax I know do, however some other companies, I'm not sure of. But yes, you can start small and add if necessary. The 2.5amps should be fine for running quite a few engines. You say you have brass though, some of those older units draw a bit more amperage than modern plastic and thus you might not be able to run quite as many. However if your not going to have too many people, thats not a problem.
A agree with the statements already given above, and also understand the concern about changing your equipment over to DCC. I started my HO layout in the late 70's, and of course there was no DCC back then. I have decided to keep running DC, instead of changing to DCC. One of my concerns is the cost, and then the time and cost of converting over 30 locomotives. Wiring is so much easier for DCC, especially if you want to run more than one locomotive at a time. Being that I am a lone operator, and my layout was built mainly for switching, I almost never have the need to run more than one locomotive at a time. This is I guess what made the decision to stay with DC very easy. I do have one locomotive that I have changed over to DCC, a brass Z-5 Yellowstone that I custom painted for the Northern Pacific around 25 years ago. The amperage draw on that particular locomotive is less than a quarter of an amp max, which is unusual for am older brass unit. I call it my traveling locomotive, which I take with me when we take road trips and visit many model railroading friends. Operating on many club and large home layouts with multiple operators in our travels, DCC is the only way to go. If your brass locomotives have a low amperage draw, you should have no problem converting then to DCC.
i will see how much of a draw my 2-10-10-2 does. (biggest brass i have). may not be the biggest hog for juice tho. but seeing as i have not even cut one board for the proposed layout will need to decide first. but if just "dc" or go "dcc" will have to buy all the throttles new any how. .
In this case, do look closely at DCC. No sense in buying new straight DCC, if money must be spent anyhow.
I can run three sound locos with my Power Cab. Trying to run more than three by yourself with be a big challenge. The NCE Power Cab has a loco current readout also. My Power Cab has two amp limit. I don't think that has changed. My DCC amp meter agrres with the display on the Power Cab handheld. For non sound, expect to pat about $20.00 for a decoder. About $60.00 to maybe $140 for sound with speaker. All depends on you shopping abilities. Modifying the locos will be a challenge also. Most decoders have a one amp limit. I remember some non sound have maybe a 1.5 amp limit. Check your loco at 12 vdc. All manuals can be found online for just about any system. There are decoders in shrink wrap and lightboard type. Decoder instructions and diagrams are all over the Internet. No idea on how much you have looked at decoders. Cheaper sound decoders do not have the best sounds if you are a rivet counter. The Tsunami sound decoders are known to be difficult to program with other brands is why SoundTraxx came up with a non sound decoder that has the same running specs as the Tsunami. I have belonged to the Yahoo SoundTraxx Group for a few years. Speaker quality can be another issue, especially with or without a baffle. Rich
I'm a long-time N-scaler (30+ years) and I was a dyed-in-the-wool DC proponent, until about 6 years ago when I had the opportunity to buy and run an Athearn N-scale Challenger with a cheapo/bad/POS MRC sound factory decoder in it, using the little radio controller on my DC layout to control the sounds as bad as they were. It converted me to DCC in a big way, so I bit the bullet and went whole-hog with a Digitrax Super Chief Radio starter set with a dozen UP5 Loconet panels, two additional UT4R small Radio Utility Throttles for guests, a PS515 75W Power Supply for my 5Amp system and a PM42 Power Management board to give me four discrete power districts. I got the starter system used, but in like-new condition for about a hundred bucks under the discounted price (discounted price on Digitrax is about 80% of MSRP), but everything else was brand new. Additionally, since I had an existing modular layout, I was going to have to re-do my substandard, rat's nest DC wiring into High Speed/Low Drag top-of-the-line DCC wiring, installing 22ga. feeders on every stinking piece of already laid rail, not trusting rail joiners to carry track voltage anymore. To finance my purchase, I decided to do what I'd been thinking about for several years, which was to finally settle on a location and era for my layout...and sell off EVERYTHING that didn't fit, no matter how much I "loved" it. I ended up selling nearly 2/3rds of my brass locos, and about half of my cars, whose build dates were post 1956. Since several of my brass locos were collectors and many had custom paint and added details, I more than made enough to buy all of my DCC items, including about a grand's worth of decoders and sound decoder, all of my new wiring (and the tools to put it together) along with half a dozen Athearn N-scale Big Boys, half a dozen Athearn N-scale Challengers, Geeps, F's, E's and a couple of Kato passenger trains that fit my era exactly...with money left over. I was willing to become much more focused in my modeling, and so I sold off EVERYTHING that didn't fit my era and location. This has saved me money over the past half dozen years, because if it didn't run between Ogden and Green River between 1947 and 1956, I'm simply not interested in it. As for my layout wiring, I went mostly with Ntrak's DCC wiring recommendations, improving on it by using the best wire (high purity/low oxygen/fine stranded red and black speaker zip) in 12ga. for the main power buses, using the same quality for 14ga. "sub" buses (leading to my feeders) and red/black solid 22ga. feeders soldered to the bottoms of my rails between ties. No feeder is more than 6" long, no sub bus is more than 3 feet long, and the total run (so far) on my modular layout is about 100 feet of double-tracked mainlines in code 55 (high resistance NS) with a small hand-laid code 40 branch line (really high resistance) with no rail extending more than 3' without a feeder. I also decided to go with genuine 3M IDC's (suitcase connectors) as my research showed they were more reliable than soldered joints. I also saved a wad since I've been hand-laying my own turnouts since the early '80's...like thousands of dollars. Remember, this is N-scale, and good turnouts in code 55 are hard to come by, and in code 40?...nobody makes 'em. I don't even know what's available in HO and larger scales! Three things which convinced me to go with Digitrax were (1) Loconet, which is a true Peer to Peer Local Area Network (LAN) designed for train and layout control...it's simple and it WORKS. (2) Support...Digitrax support is the best in the business because it's made in the USA and their "fail-safe" guarantee is great to have when you're learning to install decoders. Lastly (3) even though I don't use it much any more, you can run non-DCC-ized engines (analog) on address 00 without interference to all the rest of your DCC equipped locomotives running on the layout. NCE doesn't offer this. Although I have heard and read lots of complaints about how difficult Digitrax is to learn, there is a solution to every problem you'll encounter out there and many Digitrax Forums to choose from. Personally, both my grown son and I didn't find learning to use our Digitrax system to be a problem and now it's all second nature. However, one of the local N-scale clubs went with NCE, but are now attempting to go completely DCC (no DC allowed) and several members are up in arms because it's forcing them to buy decoders in order to run trains. At shows, my group doesn't have that problem with our Digitrax system. However, NCE (I've heard from good friends) is easier to use and learn than Digitrax. I've run on their layouts, and I don't like the "feel" of the throttles...which aren't "railroady" and look like TV controllers. Just my taste. Also, here in Utah, there are many individuals and groups who use Digitrax, so there was always help if I ran into a problem. As far as an inexpensive starter set is concerned, in my opinion, the Digitrax ZEPX Zephyr Xtra is a versatile, expandable unit that is better than Digitrax's mid range starter system in several ways. At around 175 bucks, it's hard to beat and can easily be expanded to use radio or IR throttles because of the simple and powerful Loconet feature. Also, computerization, train detection, stationary decoders, etc., will work just fine, the main drawbacks being you can only run 20 addresses simultaneously (as opposed to 120 on the more expensive Digitrax starter sets) and only 20 throttles at the same time. That really isn't a problem for many of my friends who chose this inexpensive way to get into DCC on their small layouts. On a layout your size however, its amperage is low at 3.0 amps, and in the end, you'll want a system with at least 5 amps, but you can always sell it and use it to learn all about DCC. No wiring would have to be changed for your layout to accept the more powerful Digitrax Super Chief...just unplug the Zephyr, and plug in the Super Chief...easy as pie...even if you've added radio throttles, train detection, signalling, etc. Was it worth it for me? A 100% "YES!" Even with all the extra work to convert an existing layout to DCC wiring and convert my fleet of engines. Operation is flawless and much more realistic than DC wiring could ever allow. Go DCC! Here's a photo of my portable "power board" that runs my layout at home and at shows: Here's a photo of the bottom side of one of my portable sections with its new DCC wiring in place: Although I don't have photos of my old DC wiring, I can assure you that the new DCC wiring is MUCH simpler and much more logical than my DC wiring was. Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
so then all i need is a dcs 51 control box? (not counting the chip sets in the locos). can get a new one shipped (ups ground) total of $189.usd. .
packnrat, I too went through the same question about DCC, especially because I already had so many DC locos and conversion would be very expensive. I was told one thing the helped make the decision easier accept remains the same.nd it has worked for me so far. You can set up a switch at your main power feed to the track that will go from DC to DCC and be able to run both types on the same layout. My layout may not be as complicated as yours might be, but the concept remains. Make sure you isolate the two types of locos, although most now run on either DC or DCC.
