I've had exactly the same problem with a BM 4-4-0 bought used a while ago. Tried lots of things, but what I guess did the trick, eventually, was literally drowning the thing in oil. Ok, not really literally, and no drowning, but LOTs of oil, and letting it sit for a while. No idea for how long this will work, but certainly does for a while. BTW, I'm sort of glad to read about this problem here, as the seller seemed genuinely puzzled, and I always wondered how come he didn't notice. Well, I guess the thing was fine when he put it in the box 5 years ago or somesuch Cheers Sven
When I started the project I wasn't even aware that I had a problem with the tender wheels and initially thought that the slightly raised brass pick-up strip under the tender was the issue where I had soldered the wire. To say the least I found the proverbial can of worms. I have not experienced or have even heard of this issue until now. I have been aware of the front pilot truck metal having a tendency to corrode as I have had several do that but that has been an easy fix. All of my very early versions of them are long gone having been canabalized for various projects over the years so I don't know if this has been an ongoing issue. Would be nice to know if anyone with the real early versions has had this issue. Those would be the ones with the thick hex cup drive shafts. The versions I have all date after that with the little I shaped drive shaft with the ball in the center. I have heard, but not seen that Bmann had redone the tender wheels on the newer versions but I have no confirmation of that. If the subframe assembly in the tender trucks is the same as mine then I expect in 5 or more years that the same issues may very well rear thier ugly head. Fortunately we now have the much better Atlas version and I would suggest that one spend thier money on that rather than on the Bmann version.
John: I still have at least 6 of these from my "project" days. That includes some from before the new drive shaft. (my 2-8-0 still has one of the old type) I upgraded most of those with NWSL parts. None of the tender wheels have seized up like this. But- I've found the tender trucks to have some of the worse quality control in both manufacture and assembly I've ever seen. (can't speak for the newer versions...) All of mine were taken apart and trued up as best I could when I used them. I also ran some fine emory cloth over the axles to smooth them up and maybe improve the electrical contact. Maybe that had an effect too, I don't know...? At least you don't (I hope)have any with split bolsters from where the axle pin was forced in, that were then soaked in super glue to hold them together.(thereby glueing the wheels fast and blocking pick-up entirely. I HAD to take some of them apart...) All those came from a clearance sale by a large mail order house about 20 years ago... I do have a couple fractured pilot wheels though... JimR.
I have noted your comments on the quality control issues with the tender trucks and see the same issues with mine. At least one side on each side of the plastic truck frame is almost squared off while the other side will be rounded and that speaks of a messed up mold from the beginning. That the mold continued to be used through several incarnations of these locos is a shame rather than have been corrected. The big puzzle is with all that slopiness most of these locos seem to run decently out of the box when new and only seem to have developed the issue with the tender wheels much later. All the tolerances on those wheels are very close anyway and when whatever happened with the metal half axle assembly happened, that out of true plastic frame said gotcha. I've pretty much settled on the half axle as being the main culprit though. What I beiieve at this point is that the half axle part swelled over time and two things have happened. The first is that the flanges on the wheels, originally clear of the half axle frame, now contact the half axle frame preventing the wheel rotation. The other is that the swelling of the half axle frame caused the mounted wheels to shift and also contact the out of square plastic frame part again locking up the wheel rotation. Other than a sloppy fit of the wheels on the axles, which can allow them to wobble some, I don't think the wheels are the culprit themselves. I have a total of 8 tenders that have this same issue so it is definetely not a random issue. I am not sure what is the composition of the pilot wheels. This is only the 2nd one I have had break. The first was due to my own clumsiness when using one for a project. There used to be a hard plastic out years ago that was used for appliance handles and knobs that would split over time and use. And then there was the old Melamine that did the same thing. I suspect these are similar and will bear watching over time. I shudder to think about how many of these are out there on the Bay, with a ridiculus price tag on them, that have the same issue since I have one that deteriorated new in box while in storage for a number of years. I am still interested in knowing whether any of the recently produced ones have any improvement in the truck quality or materials used, but I am not going to spend my hard earned money to buy one just to look. I would rather take the money that I would spend on another one and put a few more dollars with it and buy the Atlas. However if there is any adventerous soul out there with a new version, who in the name of mad and demented scientific endeavor, who would be willing to remove and examine one of the tender trucks to see if the previously described issues are still there it would be appreciated.
Well, I had to see if it would work. Somebody with more parts than brains has to. So I tore apart one of my two surplus Atlas/Microace 2-6-0 tenders, and YES, the Gizmoszone motor with the gearhead will drop right in. It's too high to fit inside the deck, it's level with the top of the tender flare, so it would require a little trimming and then a slightly higher woodpile/coalpile to conceal it. I'll take photos here if you want, but it does work. So since the Atlas/Microace tender and the Gizmoszone works, you could at least use this approach to fix your beautiful 4-6-0's, even if you eventually replace the 4-4-0's with atlas. I'm excited about this. I may do this to my existing Atlas 2-6-0, as I replaced the worm and driveline in my Lima project to a tender drive. It just never occured to me before that this would work for either the Bachmann 4-4-0 or the Atlas 2-6-0. I'm also getting way ahead of myself now wondering if the gearhead can be made to fit in the Atlas 4-4-0, that would be sweet, on the existing motor.....
John: Pulled out another 4-4-0 last night I'd forgotten about. Very old, has the solid drive coupler. It's one of the ones that ran well out of the box. Nothing was ever done to the trucks. Frames are actually straight on it. 6 wheels still roll, but those on one axle unit are tight up. I wonder if the metal in these is similar to the stuff Atlas/Rivarossi used in those old loco frames. I've never seen one of these "crumble",but the random swelling,warping etc. is similar. edit- I just looked at some of the trucks I reworked. On the axle part, I can see that I filed a bit off the sides of the section that protrudes between the wheels. (the part that carries the contact spring)giving it a "squared" side & bottom if that makes sense...? That allowed more flange clearance and would have negated any swelling problem locking them up. As for the truck frames-maybe the mold is defective-or maybe the damage is being done when the parts are removed. I've had lots of trucks like you describe with one straight and one bent side, or one twisted side, and even a few that were even. I think you are right about the pilot wheels. I remember those "blackish" plastic parts too and the look/textude of the wheels is very similar. Like you, I just can't see risking money to look at a new one, especially with the Atlas model now. JimR.
Well what started out to be a simple straight forward addressing of the electrical pick-up issue has turned into more. I've even got Randgust excited and at the same time managed to point out the superiority of the Atlas version, even if it is delicate and slightly prone to breakage with our big thumbs. I've spent a dreary cold day with some snow falling inside at the workbench with the specs perched on the end of my nose, and a batch of files and the Dremel, re working trucks and almost have three sets done. Took the trucks off of my first Tenwheeler kitbash to redo and found that they were different from the others. For one thing the plastic truck frame was actually uniform and straight and may actually be Delrin plastic instead of whatever the others are. Still had the issue though of the flanges contacting the half axle frame. However in trying to separate the half axle from the plastic I broke it. For some reason these half axle frames were glued in with what may have been ACC. I'm thinking that the two 4-4-0s that I used to bash the first one may actaully be from the earlier versions. And while I have been at work so has my old demented mind. I decided that I would be scrapping at least one of the Bmanns and that will become the candidate to try out my idea for driver pick-up later.
A quick update. While working on the trucks I came across the Zimac I suspected in the half axle piece. The more shiny ones are probably no more than plated Zimac since these were a dull gray. Holding one of the newer ones back to back with an older one I can just barely see the increase in size and with as close fitting as the components are that is all it took to lock them up.
Last update on this disaster. I installed the reworked trucks on the last three locos this evening and put them on the test track. I managed to get one of the kitbashed Tenwheelers running, although not as well as I would like or as well as it ran when new. Two of the newer 4-4-0s are now running again with one running like it was new the other not quite up to par. The rest are a disaster heading for the scrapheap. I'll salvage the detail parts off the ones heading for scrap to reuse on the Atlas 4-4-0s and other locos. I've never dealt with such a poorly designed, warped, and whatever else can apply, as these trucks. What started as a project to improve pick-up has ended poorly. The auxillary tender concept worked in getting power to the motor but the P*** Poor trucks derailed the project. In hindsight I probably should have tested the locos before beginning the project and would have discovered the problem and saved a lot of time rather than building the auxillary tenders first. While testing I did break out the Atlas 4-4-0s and put them on the test track. The difference was like night and day in performance especially when running through my switches with non powered frogs. They didn't even hiccup once. Just for the heck of it I did look at the Atlas tender for use with the Bmann. It will work but I would have to ask why do it. I would still be dealing with a limited footprint for electrical pick-up and no further ahead. I will still look at using a small cutdown Bmann tender and mounting the motor in it in an effort to repower the Tenwheelers and I will take one of the remaining 4-4-0s and try my idea for installing pick-up on the loco itself. And one of those tender motors and drive shafts will end up being used to power a rotary snowplow eventually.
John: I'd forgotten about this thread, but I guess it might be the answer to the bachmann truck-atrocities- http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?117567-Ultimate-4-4-0-American At least you might use it for those custom ten-wheelers. I've thought about it for my 2-8-0, but it still works pretty well... JimR.
Thank you Jim, great thread! Mark, unfortunately I can't see Fotos 1 to 4. Would be interrested to see the tenderwheel construction. Could you post them again? Thank you in advance. Franz
Late last night I consigned two of the locos to the scrap heap stripping off the applied detail parts on both tender and loco. They will get reinstalled on the new Atlas locos. Wheels, gears and other parts went to the parts boxes also. I figure the best answer to the problem is to probably take a page from the Atlas design team and come up with a non swiveling arrangement under what survives of the Bmann stuff. I did look at trying the slopeback tender but too many issues including heigth of the motor shaft came into play. I have two different trucks that I have looked at as fixed trucks under the tender. One a set of Kato 11-105s left over and trucks from the Bmann slopeback. The only issue is the wheel size and resulting slight heigth issue. Plus figuring out how to connect the trucks to the motor. I have some NWSL wheelsets but at 28 inches they are too small. Ideal would be 30 inch but NWSL doesn't make a 30 inch in N scale. I did read the thread on the Ultimate 4-4-0 and I basically picked up on what he did even though the pictures didn't show. Having just worked on about 40 pairs of wheels I just don't have the taste to try and mill down 32 wheels, basically by hand and try to get them to come out consistant. Those NWSL 28 inch wheelsets will work in the Bmann 4-4-0 pilot and make it track better. The channel for the axle just needs to be drilled out slightly larger to allow the NWSL axle to turn freely. For now though the locos that survive get put in a box and shoved in a corner until I come up with something that doesn't cost more than the loco did when I bought it.
Me either; haven't had access to a lathe etc. for a long time . I'd look into using Z scale wheels on the tender. Someone else in that thread did and apparently it work out well. I agree the Atlas & MicroAce solution with rigid trucks would be a lot easier and do just as well. JimR.
Are we speaking of the uninsulated wheel being pushed off the axle and used in the place of the Bmann wheel on the half axle here? Messing around with a metal Z scale axle I found that the insulated wheel when the center insulating plastic was removed does fit the Bmann half axle if it has been ground down to clear. And the collar on the wheel back puts it right out where it needs to be without the extra wide wheel effect. Also seems to fit better with less slop and rotates good. I think the Z axle I pulled out of my Nn3 box may be a MT but not sure and it is about a 30 inch. May be on to something here. A quick edit. Looked on the web and MT doesn't have metal wheels so I think they are Marklin and at the cost for enough of those I can buy another Atlas or two. Fox Valley has Z scale metal wheels out but it doesn't look like they have the metal collar on the back of the wheels which would leave me trying to figure out something for a spacer that doesn't contribute to friction.
John: Interesting idea with the Maerklin wheels. The "David Styles" wheels sold by RLW might work as a sub, but you'd have to ask about the inside D. (sorry,I'd give you the RLW link but I'm not allowed to here) They are 8 insulated wheels per set for $10... I believe Mark W. said he turned down wheels because FVM weren't on hand at the time. Later in the article, they mentioned using FVM wheel sets, cut in half. The live wheels were put on a plastic tube and a truck frame rigged. Much the same as a Kato tender or caboose truck. The Bachmann sideframes were then added for "looks"... JimR.
While digging around for some other info. I came across the Bmann parts web page which I could never get to open from their main site. I can get new tender trucks with pick-up springs for quite cheap and that is how I will go rather than through another round modifying. They should last long enough that by the time I would need to mess with them again I probably will be so old I couldn't see them anyway. Which if they work out then the auxillary tender project will be back on. When I do that the pilot wheels will also get replaced with the NWSL wheels. I had thought about Republic but just had not gone to thier site yet to check. So I beleive this will take the guesswork out of the project and get me back on track with less work and far cheaper.
Here is the link to the Bachmann N scale parts page. http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=66_70 I don't know why the page will not open from thier main site but it never has for me so it was sheer luck that I stumbled across the site. So I have ordered enough replacement tender trucks to restore the remaining locos and at least one of the auxillary tenders. I also noted that they have some complete loco chassis, sans motor, for the 4-6-0.
John et all: I'm a complete techno-Phillistine,and never even tried this before. I just loaded a photo of my Bachmann-"bashed" Consol to my gallery. Scan of one taken almost 15 years ago; I wouldn't know how to use a digital camera if I owned one. (though I ocasionally get help there from family...) If lucky,here it is. Not quite on topic but what the hey... Don't know what your problem is with the Bachmann web site, it always comes up fine for me. I'd assumed you knew they had trucks or I would have mentioned it. Sorry. Hope they're better than the old ones. Good luck and let us know, JimR.
