Ok, I know there are many ways to skin a cat (hmmm who would want to?....nevermind). Anyways, I am trying to decide the benchwork that will be the home of my 9x12 30" deep HO Scale Minnesota Commercial around the walls shelf layout. Option 1 Simple plywood shelf sections supprted by shelf brackets with maybe a foam base (to allow for carved out low areas such as ditces and ponds). Advantages: Simple to build - just cut the plywood to desired dimensions, attach to shelf brackets, glue foam base Sturdy platform - would probably use 3/4" plywood for durability Easy to attach under layout devices such as turnout motors, wire blocks, etc. Disadvantages: Possible increased noise transfer Is fasica more difficult to attach or will 3/4" plywood allow engough side surface to attach a fascia? How much with the plywood be prone to warping? Will shelf brackets spaced about 16" apart help reduce this potential? How do I install a removeable backdrop to the plywood? Would I use L-brackets as the backrop support attached directly to the plywood face (thinking of using magnets to attach a removable backdrop with staging behind the backdrop.) How would one install a ground throw using a foam base? - does one glue the ground throw to a small square of syrene glued to the foam base? Option 2: Box frame (1x4 butt-end construcion) with either a foam or homasote base supported by shelf brackets. Advantages: More than likely less weight to be supported, but this may not be an issue since the layout is not mobile. Open fram base would allow for easier running of wires - not that drilling is a huge issue. More surface area to attach fascia easier to build backrop supports Less noise transfer from trains than a plywood base (though I would think the foam base ontop of the plywood would help to reduce noise transfer) Disadvatages: More of a pain in the caboose to build when compared to plywood sheets. Placement of shelf brackets has to be pre-planned as to how the box frame is built. Less under layout surface area to attach under layout devices. More opportunities to screw up the building phase (angles and measuring). I am leaning towards simply using 30" deep plywood sheets supported by shelf brackets with 1" or 2" foam base on top. Removable backrop support by L-brackets secured to plywood face and under the foam top. Removable backrop held in place with magnets. I thing that 3/4" plywood will offer enough surface area to attach the fascia to. I would appreciate others insight and experience to aid in my decision making. Thanks Matt
I just made a shelf layout that is 6' long 15" deep using a MDF sheet for the top. I glued with liquid nails MDF 1x4s underneath to make it a box. if this sounds familiar I got the idea from Norseman Jack who made a thread here on TB. I think MDF painted to seal it is less prone to warping than normal plywood. I could be wrong. I know HCDs are often suggested for layouts this size but i find that although slightly lighter than MDF HCDs can be warped from the store. The one I bought was in plastic and cardboard packaging so i didn't know before I got home. Its also earlier to drill holes for wires, etc. through a solid surface vs. a hollow door.
MDF is a fantastic product, but costly. Pylwood and homasote regardless of thickness will warp unless screwed and / or glued to a rigid frame and sealed. Tolerances of course vary with temperature and humidity. Foam is a great sound deadener! Take the time it takes to do it right so that you do not have to do it over. Jerry
Hopefully the bracket spacings would be enough that there'd be no sag. I'd think that would be minimal chance, using 3/4" plywood. Otherwise, seems like it would work very well. Boxcab E5 0
Here is my thoughts on it. Is there EVER a chance that you may want to take this to shows or make it portable? If the answer is yes, then do the box construction. This is how I am going to build at least one section of my layout. It will be held to the wall with 2 2X2 brackets and will have pockets on each end of the "module" for legs if I ever want to take it to shows. The construction itself will be 1X2 L-girder with 2inch styrofoam on top affixed with Elmers carpenters glue. Just my thoughts on how I would build it. Ryan
Matt it may just be a terminology thing, but 30" is deep for a true shelf layout - I think you have passed the point of no return so to speak. That's not to say you can't have the around the wall style layout still it just wouldn't be what has become considered a shelf layout. I’m assuming that you are staying with the one level at 55”. To do your 30" depth you are going to need more than little angle brackets from Wal-Mart to hold it up. It will need strength to hold up everything you put on it and you will wind up leaning on it to get to the corners. This is true even if you use foam as the base. Depending in your spacing you can use ½” ply for support for the foam and should have no problems. I would consider using something like 24” x 24” triangle made of 2x2’s and ¼ plywood for support brackets. I can e mail some pictures if you need them. It will impede the storage under layout. You could get commercial ones like these and at least the 18 x 24” in depth http://www.premierwood.com/Steel-Counter-and-Shelf-Angle-Brackets-C10004.htm . I just used these to demonstrate what I was talking about but not recommending them per se. These are little pricey too but anything that can hold that weight and be store bought will wind up being pricey and still impede the storage. If you get them close enough – say 16”oc (and anchor to the wall stud) you would be fine with ¾” plywood or ½” ply under 2” foam as the base. If you still need/want your under storage and want to go say 48” spacing then heavy duty brackets like the commercial ones or the 2x2 made ones with boxes for the base to provide for some linear support between brackets. Just my 2 cents Steve
Matt, Check out my blog A Place for My Model Railroad , I am building a shelf layout using your #2 with ceiling tiles over plywood instead of foam.
Thank you all for the great ideas and feedback. Certainly gives me something to chew on. Yes, I have decided to go with a one level layout with around the layout staging ....just wont be all the way around. I am sure that once I start fiddling with some track placement I will be forced to adjust the plan somewhat plus I am still debating of going with grain elevator flat (already have one purchased here on TrainBoard). Yes, the shelf brackets would be heavy duty. Under the layout I am installing around the walls desktop shelving that will be home to my computer nerd empire and I am using 23" triangle steel brackets. Each one is rated at 660 pounds. I am thinking of using something simular for the layout....yes over kill but there would be no worries. There is ZERO chance that I will be taking any piece of this layout anywhere. If I go the plywood method (option#1) if I ever move again (shudder the thought of packing all of our junk again but yes, our 111 year old house is taking it's toll on my patience) I could move the layout in sections to a new home in a new office (dreaming again)with a few precision cuts on the scenery layer and some muscle power to move the sections. I read in a Model Railroader where the guy used ceiling tile on his layout (Soo Line based in Minneapolis no less) and thought it was a very clever method. My question on the ceiling tile was how thick is it, how much does it cost, and how does one carve out ponds, lakes, low areas, etc. I am still thinking that my option 1 seems the simpliest but as stated, I want to do it right the first and only time. I know my ancient HO layout in the 1980's I used (shudder) particle board as the base material over saw horses but hey it worked great until I tore it all down in 1989 1978-1989 is not a bad run for lousy particle board....and no, I would never do that again And my former N-Scale never completed layout benhwork was so over built I could have parked an full scale F-150 on it
Sounds like you are well on your way....I can smell the saw dust now. You can use the 3/4" ply for a base and put a small cleat on the front for the fascia like they do for making counter tops. In a pinch, that could serve as your fascia. Steve
When I build my upper level for my shelf layout I will be using 1" X 4" lumber in a rail and stile grid held together with pocket screws. This will be coverd with luann plywood (cheaper than 1/4" plywood) and then topped with foam boards with cork roadbed all supported by metal shelf brackets as is my lower level. There is no noise transfer. In fact it sounds good if you are using metal wheels. I have even cut little V grooves in the ball of the rails in certain areas to replicate the clickety-clack of jointed rail.
Consider using door blanks....cheap, light, sturdy, easily held by wall brackets for a shelf layout. Foam goes right on top if needed. Not my idea....got it from all the books by Lance Mindheim on shelf layout construction. Good advice in all them. Bob
Here is a quick update on the slow progress of the Office Model Railroad: Remodeling efforts are still under way for the small 9x12 office. All networking for the house was completed in Feb 2011. Just last week finally completed all the drwall instalation and now the office has a door yay. This week completed install the desktop support brackets. Remodeling work is finally accelerating now that many of the technical details have been resolved. However, some question / concerns remain. I have decided to use the plywood with shelf brackets approach. I currently have several l shelf brackets that are 14" in depth and are rated at 100 pounds each. I am looking at using either 3/4" or 1" plywood shelves that will be 24" wide. I don't think that the 10" of overhang will be a big issue, however I am wondering if I will run into an issue with excess weight? The brackets for the most part will be spaced 16" apart (one of every stud). I did not want to use heavier angled brackets with a supporting bar due to loss of real estate beneath the layout (desktop area). I have also elected to use a lift out solution for the door crossing. I will be using supports and barrel bolts for this option. Looks good on paper thus far, will have to see how it works out during the construction phase. I will be working on the shelving issue this weekend and some other construction projects in the office. I should be ready to paint next weekend. I am hoping to have all remodeling complete in about 3 to 4 weeks.
What type / brand of ceiling tile? I've been told the dust from it (if you sand it) is quite toxic. Don't know if that's accurate.
BNSF_MP_30 I just use what Lowe's or Home Depot sells nor sure of the brand or if it's toxic. Yes it will make dust but you need to have a spray bottle of water with soap this will eliminate the dust. I got this idea from Jim Six and his NYC Michigan Branch Layout. He uses 2" foam over a wood frame with ceiling Tiles. here a couple links to his stuff His yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC_Michigan_Branch_Layout/ and his photobucket site http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b337/jsix/?start=all
Bob, That was the same option I was going to bring up. Lance makes some very high end layouts using Hollow Core Doors (HCD). Put 1/2" foam on top and you are good to go for a very small investment.
Now that the HCD option has been brought back up, I am looking into it as somehow I omitted this from consideration before. But those are some very valid points. Are HCD any more prone to warping than plywood? Also, I am planning on installing some small under cabinet lights on the bottom of the layout base to provide additonal lighting when needed for the desktop area below (as the layout will provide a shadow over the desktop). is a HCD strong enough to support undercabinet lights? maybe an anchor will be required. Thoughts and suggestions welcomed.
I think I found the answers to my own question. HCD anchors (like drywall anchors) can be used to secure medium to heavy loads to a HCD. The various under cabinet lights available I think would fall into the medium load category. These looks like a very good option. Homedepot has hollow core doors (24"x80") listed at $34.85 each thus bringing my total to about $174.25. Are there less expensive sources for hollow core doors? The price is not a show stopper but I need to shop around a little.
One thing you might try is checking with Home Depot/Lowes/etc., and maybe even a lumber yard (if your neck of the woods has one) to see if they have any scratch and dent doors. Since you're just going to be gluing some foam to it anyway, the door doesn't need to be perfect. Also, if you're not in a hurry, you could consider advertising on Craig's List to see if anyone has any doors that they're trying to get rid of (remodeling projects, etc.). Might be able to score some freebies that way! Regarding hanging lights underneath, if the door panel wood won't hold a light (and I find that highly unlikely), you could always nail some wood strips across from the solid edges of the door to handle the weight. This also gives you a little bit of space to run your track wiring. Keep us updated, sounds like a great build!
Well, I went with the Hollow Core Door method. Everything for the most part has been purchased to continue the office remodel less carpet squares and door trim. After I eat (long day of driving around) I will be installing the brackets for the model railroad base, tape and mudding tonight and if all goes well, paint tomorrow. I will provide some picutures later
