Too Crowded or Not?

:tb-confused:My dilemma has to do with fitting everything into my “dream” layout.

I have spent a long time on layout design to achieve the operations I want. I love operating this layout; however it may look horrible after adding scenery. My concern is I am unable to visualize what the finished result will look like. Lacking any prior experience I turn to the gurus of TrainBoard for insight.

The huge industrial / yard shops end of my layout is up for question. Would you leave it as it is or would you reduce the overcrowding? This end of the layout contains an engine service terminal with engine shop, car shop, and engine ready tracks. It also has four industries serviced by the yard. An LPG distributor, flour mill, HVAC manufacturer and soap manufacturer. Industry trackage includes a run around to handle switch back operations for the soap manufacturer.

Need opinions and suggestions.

Thanks,

Jerry

 

I see nothing wrong with your layout. I think the only thing I might do is move one of the industries to the upper right corner, to give the switcher a bit of a run.

 

I'm not sure how to describe this..... what I see isn't the crowded industrial area, it's the constraint of the return loop around it. It would have an entirely different feel if the two return loop tracks went UNDER the industrial area, or went ABOVE it on a viaduct-type thing. The only real constraint on the design is how far back the switches are to get into there at the entrance. They're pretty far back already.

You'll loose that one siding at the apex of the loop, but you'll gain that back and more with additional siding length on top.

Since the two return track are right on the edge of the table, they could go 'under' and still be easily accessible behind fascia. That would solve two problems - the apparent stuffing of the industries and the too-open reverse loop. Figure it out with about a 2 - 2.5% grade and see if you have enough clearance to get under the main part of the industry area; maybe combined with seeing if you can gain a little elevation coming on to that site.

 

Jerry:

The Industrial area looks fine to me. As TD said you could possibly add a small industry in the upper right corner of the layout.

 

Thanks TD and Bob for your similar thoughts. I would like to move the one industry to where you suggested except that area is two inches below track grade. Maybe the best thing to do is remove this one industry entirely.

Thanks Randall for your take on the return loops. I’m beginning to realize that “feel” you spoke of. Adding some terrain on each side of the return loops along with shrubbery and rocks would go a long way in reducing the too-open appearance. By removing the one industry at the apex would allow for these additions.

Thanks Rick for your intuitive take on the big city aspect. Although I am modeling after the Chicago land area the flour mill and LPG distributor are more country oriented. I could dump these specific industries for factory type industries or open things up a little and give things more of a country flavor.

With these collective thoughts in mind I did some selective compressing of the return loop industrial area of the layout. See what you think. :tb-smile:

Thanks,

Jerry

 

Like randgust, the first thing I saw was the proximity of the lower return loops to the urban industry sidings. Visibility of the sidings from outside the loop will make the loop radius look smaller to a point of distraction.

If you can't separate the grade as randgust has suggested, then plan some other vertical shielding element between the loop and the urban area.

When I first considered your original plan, I imagined the black areas as tall structures and the gray areas as pavement, just the opposite of your intended plan. With that reversed approach, the shielding concept worked well, visually separating the loop from the siding. This would give a focused view of trains on the loop running close along the backs of tall industrial buildings.

Another option could include concealing most of the loop within taller structures much as you would do with hidden staging.

On the remainder of the layout, you can enhance the illusion of distance by making your roadways enter and exit the visual stage in discreet scenes. Running continuous roads from one side of the layout to another will make the whole layout look smaller than it is.

Consider how you can divide the layout into several independent scenes separated by visual blocks or by heavy vegetation that doesn't attract the eye. Then, as trains travel from one scene on to the next, you'll experience a greater sense of distance. With this much track on the layout, it will be doubly challenging. However, I see several opportunities to make it work.

 

Thanks Todd for the tip on roadways!:thumbs_up:

Please elaborate on changes that would create independent scenes. Keep in mind my city (residential / downtown) area is two inches below track grade. Viaducts pass under the upper right hand corner trackage.

I am beginning to understand the shielding concept; however I am also beginning to realize the limitations of a zero grade track design and an overall lack of real estate. These are two things I may have to work around for the time being. For now I would like to use terrain as the vertical shielding (shrubbery, rocks and trees).

Jerry

 

When it comes to industry, there's no such thing as "too crowded."

 

My only suggestion is the you leave about four inches west of the easterly wall available for scenery. Even if you want to put some hills there to break up a flat horizon, you will need some slight depth to work with. Even for a low run of hills with a line of ground foam for distant trees.

 

Jerry,If I may..

When I first looked at your plan the first thoughts was Stereo Southern Ry and a fine example of where less is better.

However,after a second look and I can see a lot of operational possibilities using Frank Ellison's idea of layouts being a stage where the "actors"(the trains) appear on cue..

As for the return loop in question I would leave it as it is instead of adding a unrealistic steep grade that will require additional space-taken from the yard area no doubt.

I do think a low double sided view block with a city scene would help to hide the return loop and cover the "crowded" look..

And that is exactly what I would do.

 

Jerry;

You should see my layout if you want to see a perfect example of crowded. And while it might not be a great example of railroad “prototypicality”, it offers enormous operational opportunities and more importantly I like it and that’s all that really matters.

 

I must admit operations seem to be more important to me than scenery. Does that mean I must forego scenic appeal since I used up a large part of my real estate for trains and industry? Hopefully not!

I certainly appreciate the great ideas received so far. It has definitely expanding my concept of perspective and possibilities.:tb-smile:

Jerry

 

I like the layout, and see no problems with "cluttering" as you said. The industrial area is nice, with a lot of things to get done in a small space, which keeps my short attention span approach to operations happy, and the rest of the layout is a nice long run to hidden storage or a trip around the layout. Nice job, well done, post construction pics when you get it started.....

 

Jerry;

Throughout a large part of my layout the buildings and industries ARE THE SCENERY.

Remember; on a real railroad no river, canyon, mountain, valley or tunnel ever made a dime for the company.

 

Thanks Newman, sd90ns and others for your supportive words. It would be easy for me to just go with it the way it is; however I have definitely gained more insights by trying to understand alternate approaches. I’m thirsty for ideas. Even the minor layout revision I made to the industry area in question looks so much better on the layout. I don’t expect to learn everything without paying some trial and error dues. I would just like a heads up chance of doing a few things right from the start.

Jerry

 

Agreed I couldn't have said it better

 

Here are a few pics of the modified return loop industry area. Outside return loop is no longer "on the edge" of the layout. By removing the industry at the apex of the return loop and compressing the flour mill and LPG distributor additional space was made available for natural scenery as a buffer.









Locos and rolling stock provide a better perspective. Bench work is 46" wide and uses 19" radius curves with 28" easements on the outer return loop. There is a 2 1/2" gap between the rails and the edge of the bench work around the entire return loop.

Jerry