Runs Hi Nprailer, I think we are talking apples and oranges here, but I understand your position. Sure, they relase more of one car, in more roads and numbers in a year, but we release up to 108 different cars and color schemes a year...figuring 9 different cars a month for 12 months. If we were to do like Atlas or Lifelike or others, sure we could do maybe 4-8 different car styles and jack up the number of road names and numbers. But, the vast majority of our customers like the variety each month, and while this might seem a hat tip to the collectors, it's not really. Ben and I have been pushing more towards the runners needs with the Runner's Packs and multipule numbers on some releases...and that has been met with great response. I see more of that in our future. I've even noodled over that we do one car a month and do different road names with multiple numbers, but our customer base would be less than receptive...too big a change I think. Sure, there are folks out there who would like that, but no business can be all things to everyone, we have a niche, we are a small company with limited resources that manufactures here in the US and pays our staff a living wage with benifits. Aside from Kadee across the valley how many other model railroad companies can claim that...few if any. So we are dealing with the historical way of doing business and product we provide and the realities of the market place. Sure we can have a business like Atlas or Athearn, but I don't think we are prepared to loose 80 hard working people to copy somone elses business plan and ship our labor over overseas. I've been with MTL for over 5 years now and I have been blessed in the past to work for the very best companies in their fields...MTL is no different in my eyes. We may not have the volume or the variety a lot of folks want or get with other companies, but what we do, we do very, very well. Also, as to volume, that's always a tricky thing to anticipate. To be frank, most of our cars last well into the month, a few blow out the first day and we are as surprised as you guys are! I had this discussion the other day on another board...and what I have found is the general misimpression that after the 1st of the month, there's nothing left to buy, so some retailers just assume we are out. Not always the case, and generally when confronted with this on my trips around the country, a call placed back to the factory generally ends with that product being shipped out the next day. There are notable exceptions in the recent and not so recent past like the SP HyCube, and the Pan Am Car, but those were flukes. Based on sales in the past of Hycubes and cars costing in the range of the Pan Am Car, quantities were estimated for production. As it happens, we didn't pick the right number. It's one thing for a customer not to get what he wants, figure how it feels on our end to know we left hundreds or thousands of dollars on the table that won't go to towards making us a more profitable company. You're upset, we are out a lot of cash!! ) I wanted to take this time to clear the air a bit, your points are well taken and I appreciate folks being honest and expressing how they feel and what they want. I hear you, Management hears you and we are working every day to become an even better company tomorrow than we were today. I meet you guys on the road, I listen to your praise and your concerns and even barbed jabs about fantasy cars. And I take it all in the spirit it is given. Thanks again Joe MTL
I'd like to echo the earlier comment about the carbon cars - I saw a few roll by a a couple of days ago and thought it'd be nice to have some in N scale. If there's a prototype that spans from the 60's through the present, it would get my vote, but that's just because I'm a 1990's-present guy.
The picture posted by Balou Line makes me think that some MOW cars based on the Troop cars would be a welcome addition.
Joe, First, it's great you feel the market by posting in such a forum. Creating new products is cash consuming and a small company like yours that wants to keep its business on the US must secure its activity by limiting risks of being goofed with overstocks. But at the same time Micro-Trains would certainly sell more by offering more road numbers at the same time : I don't understand why Micro-Trains would stick to a unique road number per release for Class 1 companies (BNSF, UP, CSX, SP,...) or car lessors (ADM, Railbox, TTX...) when all your competitors release at least 2 road numbers per model (Atlas, Athearn) up to 6 road numbers (Red Caboose, Intermountain). You did some exceptions recently when releasing 2 road numbers of 89' Autorack in UP, SP and BNSF and I fully support you in that direction. Modelling the SP, I bought the 2 SPs. Paul and Mark's accounts are without further right of appeal for MT: While your competitors are releasing dozens of different road numbers to allow runners build unit trains, and those latter buy from them, Micro-Trains certainly miss a large piece of the cake. As a conclusion, I will second many other Nscale modelers : let more runner packs or multiple road numbers come on the market, and Micro-Trains will earn more money while reducing its costs : its more time- and cost-effective to produce the same model in 6 different road numbers in the same batch than doing six different batches over the time. You can still argue that it will consume more capital on a shorter period of time because of increasing needs of raw material and increasing stock of finished goods, but there is a market for multiple road numbers. If market perspectives are promising, why wouldn't MT find more capital to grow and make more money? Tunnel Motor
I'd like to see M-T milk more from it's already amortized existing tooling. Two types of tooling that seem to be perpetually warming the bench are open hoppers and 89' flats. The runner packs give me hope on the hopper front, hope that you'll see the cash cow that certain coal roads would represent. I'm watching and waiting. I was pretty excited about the new scale test car, but at the rate M-T is releasing them I'll see N&W in 2077.
Joe, Thanks for your response. I wonder that you cannot have two business models working together: a collector model and a runner model for lack of better terms. Words you've used like 'colorful' seem to be oriented toward the collector market. I would argue that virtually all you do is oriented that way. The exception is the recent runner packs which you seemed to feel you needed to call 'runner packs', implying that the rest of what you do isn't really runner stuff. I say, why not change philosophy and aggressively tap both markets? There are many people like me who need quantities of a particular model in a particular color scheme and era and don't want to wait another 10-15 years for an M-T re-run. We appreciate what Atlas does for us (and IM and RC and DeLuxe and even Bowser). I for one would appreciate it if M-T did this for me. You said you didn't think there was a market for more cars. I think there is a lot of evidence to indicate there is a large market for quality N scale products in multiple road numbers and even in multiple paint schemes for the same railroad. There is money to be made in the 'runner' market. I don't think we are really talking a lot of capital either. I just bought a three pack of special edition 50 foot gondolas in LV paint with very nice loads for $65 from the Anthracite RR Historical Society. You provided them and ARHS made a profit at just about $22.00 per car with loads. They only had to buy 100 sets and you must have made a profit, too. So we're talking M-T making money on a 300 car run with three road numbers and three different loads. I know that special runs are guaranteed income for you and so basically a no-brainer, but this isn't a big capital outlay we're talking about. I'm not trying to tell you your business. I just wonder if you are more interested in six flashy new releases a month (or whatever it is) or a bit larger business with a bit more profit. The market actually doesn't have to grow for you to do this. In some cases you'd just be taking market from someone with a lesser product, in other cases you are the market and you'd just make more money on what you already have created. Yes, you need capital, but after awhile it would seem your capital would grow. If you stay with your current business model you may be at the limit of your growth already. The collector market may already be all it is going to be. The runner market may be the only real growth option available. You can probably tell I am not a collector so you won't make money from me that way. I'll buy Atlas and the other N Scale producers even though at times I'd like to buy from M-T. Just wish you guys could change that. Thanks for listening. Enough for now.
I have to agree with the last few comments... obviously you know your business better than we do, but, they bring up valid points. There's a big portion of the market that isn't anxiously awaiting the next Smokey the Bear release.
Hi Joe, what I would love to see from MT would be make one car for each Railroad and have all the data that is the same but leave the road number blank and include a decal sheet for a group of cars. Then next release same car just updated decal sheet with a second set of number and so forth. I would think this would keep cost down and would be great for us modelers. Some would just run the cars with out ever worrying about the road numbers. Decals should not be expensive as they would only be in one color.
A perfect world In Joe world ) we would do one car a month and do different regional schemes and several road numbers. Ease production confusions, parts inventory and on and on. For a few years we would get skinned by the folks who like the way we have been doing business, but that would fade. I think we are starting to move towards this model though, with Runner's packs geared not at collectors, but at the rest of us. This is a big deal for us, a real big deal because it points to a real departure to the way things have been done here. I think as the numbers begin to come in, I can make more and more of a case to offer more multiple numbers on N scale Monthly releases. We had that discussion this morning and I think there's a real understanding of the potential. So, don't count us out yet, I think we can do something signifcant here. As to growth, I still think we offer a product that is priced above what offshore manufacturing can offer. That limits our growth somewhat...we have to compete with $10 box cars and I accept that the vast majority of modelers look at us like we are that Red Rider BB Gun they will never be able to afford. We really can't come down in price much no matter how we structure production, at least not enough to offer $10 Box Cars in the near future. With rising costs of materials and labor, it's difficult to keep prices where they are. So just pumping out more cars isn't going to do us any good. Our shelves in inventory are already stocked with left over product that doesn't get ordered, how much more can we hold on to and stay open? Lots of questions, but I want folks to know that Management has really taken all this to heart and we are doing things that are different than before. Hopes this explains somewhat. Cheers Joe
Joe, I believe all of us are interested in seeing Micro-Trains prosper. So I am glad you are thinking in terms of both-and rather than either-or (or for many of us, rather than 'like it's always been'). Mark
To keep the local hobby shops happy, why not have a hybrid approach to fleet sales? First, you have to buy one of your cars from a distributor. Then, you remove the product tag and send it in to MicroTrains along with a check. MicroTrains then sends you runners packs, as many as you like. Local shops are happy moving your goods, inventory is controlled and you get to sell more cars! Of course, if a hobby shop wanted to sell your runners packs, all the more power to them!
I think I have read all of the posts on this topic, so if I'm being redundant, please bear with me..... One of my ongoing frustrations with MT has been the Special Runs, or to be more specific, when MT does Special runs of cars that I would like to have as runners, I have to pay a premium price to get one, or if they're sold as packs, a very high premium. In particular, Great Northern cars. I'd like to see these made available as regular releases. Another puzzler, there are cars that were produced in the past that I would love see made available again, in particular the Chicago and Northwestern PS1 boxcars with the large slogans. For a while, cars that haven't been available for years were being updated and released again - this is a trend I would like to see continue. Some of the body styles beg to be produced as runner packs, the 100 ton open hoppers in particular, I'd also welcome the 89 foot flat cars, the 40 and 45 foot trailers, etc. You can count me in for the Heavyweight Passenger cars and the Bay Window Caboose.
I have heard of the runner packs, but I didn't know shops could not stock them. Where do I order them and when does MTL anounce the packs?
Daniel, I believe tgromek is talking about the special runs such as when a individual or society commisions a special run of cars. I don't think the distribution of those will ever change. The person or group commisioning the production run is the one taking all the chances. They have to put up the capital for the cars up front before production begins. It's their dime, they can do what they want with the cars. Some people who have had special runs done have worked with hobbyshops to handle the excess cars but really, it is up to the person who commisioned the cars, as to how they are distributed. I may be wrong but as far as I know, Microtrains will not re run or copy a special run car commisioned by someone other than Microtrains, at least without the original persons permission. I am really hoping that they will consider rerunning some of the B&O 2 bay hopper sets that Brian DeVries commissioned a few years ago as runner packs, with of course new road numbers. I think new policy also means that they won't have the "return to" labeling required on early special runs. I'm tired of chasing them at $100 a 3 pack on E-bay.
Special Runs Thanks for jumping in here. Special Runs are a diffent part of the business and that is some sort of exclusive agreement between the guy with the check book and the owners. How that stuff is distributed and sold is beyond my paygrade...I understand Intermountian and others provided this service as well. Boy, everyone has a favorite right? If it were up to me we'd do SP all the time, 9 releases a month in Z Scale...but thankfully I don't run the place and I, like you have to wait for stuff I want as well. As a general statement, if you want to see something, email Brian@Micro-Trains.com and let him know and he can see about getting it into the que. Thanks! Joe MTL
Daniel, The Runner Packs are not the same as the Special Runs. These are announced several months in advance and pre-orders are taken through MTL dealers. These (at least for now, right, Joe?) are four differently numbered cars in the same paint scheme. So far all of these have been reprints of previous releases and they have been on the older body styles: boxcars and open hoppers. One of the most attractive attributes of them is the price; the street price is pretty close to what others charge for similar body styles and of course you don't have to change out to the MTL trucks and couplers. Low profile wheels are included in the packs as well. Runner Packs #1 and #2 were announced in October 2006, when I reviewed them in the UMTRR, and were released this month (April 2007). I have the #1 pack, four Pennsylvania 40 foot single door boxcars and I would have the photos of them up on the UMTRR Website already if I weren't so lazy. (Stay tuned, though.) Runner Pack #2 is a quartet of Santa Fe 40 foot plug door boxcars. There have been six Runner Packs announced thus far and they are contained in the 2007 Release Table on my website along with entries for the individually numbered cars. I am handling these differently in my Unofficial Micro-Trains Release Report by doing the review (as best as I can) when they are announced as opposed to when they are released. Please note that you need to subscribe to the UMTRR to read these reviews as I have no plans to post them to the website. (But the UMTRR continues to be free and worth at least that much.) Visit the website (URL below) for more.
I have been silent on this thread thus far in terms of my wish list since I was one of those who made Eric Smith and the MTL gang aware of the forthcoming panel side hopper-- so I figure I only get one wish a year to be fair. (Although I must point out that it certainly wasn't this year when I sent Eric the information!) But Tony's point about the B&O hoppers is well taken. This was a subject of discussion before on one or more 'net venues and it seems to me that there's a whole lot of pent up demand for these cars just among those who chimed in during those discussions. Special Runs no longer require non-prototype lettering any more, so they can be a direct copy of the real thing. There are some who've commissioned Special Runs that do lock up potentially popular regular releases for a time. However, MTL has noted in the past in its Special Run policy that it reserves the right to run Special Run cars of this type as Regular Runs, with different road numbers if possible. Thus far, though, that's been limited to cars that have been done for The N Scale Collector's Society; the Great Northern express refrigerator car is top of mind for me but there are others including Santa Fe boxcars. While talking to other N Scalers who do not make themselves known on the 'net, I have also heard concerns about Special Runs keeping Regular Runs off the market, and the substantially higher prices one has to pay in order to acquire these cars. It's also true, though, that the risk of a Special Run is entirely borne by the person or organization that commissions them-- MTL gets paid regardless and prior to delivery. There are more than a few Special Runs that don't quite blow out, if you know what I mean. You pays your money, you takes your chances...
