Any of you guys have a Life-Like PA-1, the early 1998 one? When I build a turnout or crossing I've been mounting them on ..... .... my turnout tester shown above. I've then have been running a 4 axle Atlas GP7, a 6 axle Life-Like PA-1 and a Con-Cor 8 axle U50 through the turnout to test it. Yesterday I finish a #6 turnout (most are 6's) and started the testing. The GP7 went through both routes really nice and I felt this was one of the better turnouts I'd built. Then I went to the PA-1. Through route was no problem but the divergent route was a big problem. It would derail trying to make the turn in the frog area. I tried the U50 and most of the time it went through on the divergent route but a couple times the rear non-powered two axle truck set would derail. It doesn't take much to derail either set of non-powered trucks on the U50. I checked things with my NMRA track gauge and thought it was a touch narrow in that area coming out and a touch wide going in. Got the soldering iron and tweaked it a bit. After the adjustments the U50 now went through either route with no problem but the PA-1 still would derail probably at least 80% of the time. The PA-1 besides being a 6 axle loco the wheel base between axles is long, maybe the longest I have?? So you have a set of 3 axles on an end trying to keep all the sets on the rail on a curve. Not a good situation and this loco has always been the supreme test for me of a turnout. I looked at the track gauge again and decided to cheat a little and widen it a little in that area but still the loco derailed a lot. So I thought not prototypical but I'm going to fix this as I'm a function over looks guy. Added another guard rail on the divergent stock rail approaching the frog area to help capture the wheels earlier. This resulted in basically having a really long guard rail in that area (two in a row, could replace with a single long one). I've checked the wheels before on this loco with a track gauge and did so again and found them all fine again. I got out a couple other 6 axle locos a SD and a U30C. Both went through no problem but they both have shorter wheelbases on the trucks on each end. Then I got a Kato PA-1 and tried it. When through as easily as the GP7 at the beginning of the test. So long time getting here but do any of you have luck running the first series Life-Like PA-1's through #6 turnouts? I'm thinking I might give up on the single Life-like PA-1 I have and sell it since I don't want to spend this much time on a turnout for a single loco. Sumner
How long IS the wheelbase? I don't have a PA-1, but I have a bunch of other LL 6 axle locos and they all do fine. Unless you are really attached to that PA, I'd probably agree with your decision to sell it. It would be a pain to have to make every new turnout just to work with that one loco.
Yep since I was able to pickup two Kato PA-1's and a PB-1 I think that is enough PA's for now. I did take a couple pictures and came up with some ideas. I'm wondering it the floating axles and especially the larger wheels make the Life-Like's not quite as forgiving as the Kato. Also the longer truck wheel base and shorter overall wheelbase compared to some of the other 6 axle locos probably plays into it also. I have some Life_Like Erie Built that I also bought and haven't run. I'll try one of those the next time I'm testing a turnout or could put one on my test track. I think they are pretty close to the PA-1. Sumner
I did some checking, and my LL E units have a longer truck wheelbase than the Kato E units. And as you noted, larger wheels. My DL109 has the same wheels, but an even longer wheelbase. Not sure which type of truck the Erie builts would have.........hopefully the same truck as the E units in terms of length.
Appears that the model makers strayed from the real figures if these figures from American-Rails.com are right and I'll bet they are close. Model ------------- Truck Wheelbase -------------- Wheel Size PA-1 ......................... 15' - 6" ................................40/42" DL-109 ..................... 15' - 4" ................................. 40" Erie-Built ................... 15' - 5" .............................. 40/42" E9 ............................ 14' -1" .................................. 36" The models of the first three above should be basically the same for truck wheelbase and wheel size and not noticeable to our eye. The E-9 in a N Scale world should have a .1" shorter truck wheel base and .031" difference in wheel size. Sumner
Is there any difference in how freely the trucks pivot between the two PA-1s? I've found that else being equal, locos whose trucks are a little stiffer and less free to move under the loco are more prone to derailing at places a loco with free-pivoting trucks will cruise right through.
Doesn't seem to be and the Life-Like trucks can actually swing in a wider arc. Differences..........the truck wheelbase on the Life-Like is .050" longer and the wheels are .030" larger in diameter. The flanges on both are low profile. The wheel axle combination on the Life-Like float quite a bit side to side in the axle bearings but I'd think that would help on a tighter radius. The Kato wheels/axles don't move hardly at all side to side. If I was looking at them and guessing which would be more prone to derail on a turnout with a smaller frog angle I'd guess it would be the Kato but the opposite is true (at least for the ones I have). Sumner
Most Kato locos are marketed to Japan and Europe where layouts are in tighter spaces therefore their locos are set up to operate on 9.75 Rad and tight turnouts. But Jwaldo may have hit on something with the truck swing. I had the increase the slots in the frame to get my 70 tonners to operate on my 8 inch unitrack.
Thanks for the input. It seems, at least when they are upside down that the Life-Like actually swings further. Looking down from above with them sitting on a paper towel the Life-Like swings outside the body a little more also. On both of them though the rear trucks swing further out than the front trucks. I think I remember that the Life-Like didn't derail backing through the turnout from the divergent route. Next time I'm testing a turnout I'll come back to this and turn the loco so the cab end is going through the turnout coming from the divergent route to the main. The problem has been turning from the main to the divergent with the cab leading. The problem is on a #6 turnout that is kind of middle of the road I believe in the range of turnouts people use. Was hoping someone else had one of these and what their experience was. I'll sell this one and the B unit to someone for what I paid for it pre-COVID when prices were quite a bit lower if they want to mess with it since I have the KATO A-B-A unit. Sumner
You might try narrowing the center wheelset a bit (if possible). I did this on one engine (honestly, I forgot which one) with 6 axles. Allowing motion of the center axle reduced the tendency to derail on tight radii. I still need to fix my Fox Valley 6-axle as it also binds up on one switch and an uphill curve.
I once had a problem where my Kato F3 A unit would derail when going nose first, but not when going in reverse, through a particular spot in my layout. It was an extreme case of a challenging tracklaying, with a tight curve leading into the turnout and a grade transition, in a very tight layout I created in a drawer under a bed. My other 8-wheel diesels did not derail, but the Kato F3 A unit did when going nose first only. Eventually I figured out that the lead truck of the Kato F3 had very little give in the lead truck's ability to rock sideways. The rear truck was looser in this regard. I don't fault the Kato F3, since the tracklaying scenario I created was extreme (I eventually did correct my trackwork to allow the Kato F3 to not derail). Based on this you might want to look more closely at comparing any details between the rear and front trucks on your LL PA-1, including any degree of freedom that individual axles might have.
Thanks for the input. The Life-Like trucks swing in a wider arc than the Kato PA-1 and E9 that I was also running through the turnout with no problem. I might try re-gauging the center wheel-set like was mentioned above at some point or move on. Sumner
The problems I've had with my Life Like PA's is the middle wheels tend to come loose and float on the axle. They may test just fine with a NMRA Gauge but will start moving about when running down the track. I haven't found a cure for that. I've been known to switch out the mechanism/chassis to that of another PA and that usually solves my problem. I wouldn't sell it unless you mark it as "Scrap Yard". These naughty motors need to find a place in a parts department and not back out giving someone else trouble. I like your hand made switches. They look spiffy.
I just watched the video again and notice the freight car connected behind the diesel does a lot of side-to-side rocking when it goes thru the turnout. This is most noticeable at 0:18 (going forward) and at 1:19 (going backward). The diesel does not have the side-to-side rocking. Does this side-to-side rocking in the freight car indicate that something should be investigated in the turnout itself?
One rule of thumb you'll hear me use. If everything but the one unit runs through the switches without any problem. You know it's the unit that needs attention and not the switch. You know Switch!
Hi Carl, that video was showing the turnout tester that I use and there I was testing a 3-way turnout I built and the loco isn't the PA-1 in question. Rick I don't know if everything I have will run through the turnout but yes agree that it is the loco. Except for trying to narrow the center wheel sets, as was mentioned above, I'm out of options I I'll pursue. I've only got $20 in the loco so I think I need to move onto other potential problems , Sumner
I don't normally recommend fooling around with the gauge of the wheel sets. That just loosens them up and they can start floating on the axle. I think we've all tried that at some point in our model trains experience. It never really works out very well. That one freight car I can see behind the PA may have problems with the wheels properly gauged. That can be fixed with new MTL's. It is possible this is a track problem. Knowing your work I'm inclined to go with you on the PA. Another question for you. Try running your LL FM through the switch. That is practically the same chassis as the PA. Just a thought. I'm looking for a FM shell in the UP livery to add to my AA set of FM's. These guys are hard to find. So, if you can get your PA working right it will be a win/win.
The 'switch' is now on the layout somewhere, don't remember where . If you are talking about the video at the top of this thread that was taken testing a 3-way turnout with I think and E9 and probably dropping a wheel into the frog area on one of the legs. Another turnout that I not sure of its location now. I have one on the test track, probably that one, and a couple more that will go on the layout but will test them again before I put them in place. Which FM are you talking about. Do any of them have 6 wheel trucks? Which FM shell are you looking for? Sumner
In my experience hard-to-explain derail problems aren't because of trouble with the 'yaw' axis (i.e. the direction the trucks are 'supposed' to turn in around corners), but the 'pitch' (front/back) and 'roll' (side-to-side rocking) axes. Stiffness in those directions will exacerbate the tiniest track flaws by making it so that anything that lifts up one wheel lifts the whole truck off the track. I'd check movement in those directions as well. And a really helpful trick I've used to diagnose derail-prone locos: if you have a phone/camera that can take slow-motion video, take one of the loco rolling through a spot it derails. Watching the derailment happen in slow motion really helps pin down the exact points on the wheels and track where the interference is happening, which makes it a lot easier to figure out what is going wrong.
Yes, I've seen and experienced that also. I think I'm done with the loco for now at least, too many other things with a higher priority. I have the other PA-1 that runs great so that is enough for now. I was hoping someone else might have one of these and their experience with it. Thanks guys for the input, Sumner
