New guy in town

Joe D'Amato Aug 10, 2017

  1. Joe D'Amato

    Joe D'Amato TrainBoard Member

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    Actually TT Scale has been around a very long time and while not super popular in the US it is huge across the pond. It's an interesting scale, 1/120 and an easy one to scratch build in...which you wanna be interested in if you are attracted to this scale. Hopefully at some point we can list the ready to run and the injection molded kits that are available for the US market. Ironically almost all of it comes from the former Eastern Bloc today, several boxcars were done here. There are several options for track, both "Kato" road bed style and of course standard snap and flex tracks. There are trucks available and I understand Fox Valley has TT wheel sets which makes modeling sooo much easier.

    So far there's only one "modern" ready to run US proto engine available for a few years and that's a SW 1200 by MTB and it's availability is spotty these days. The mech is a good one and the shell is well done but can be spruced up with a little work. Lionel has several TT loco's and their chassis are used quite often in scratchbuilding. The shells are a bit clunky and dated but with some work... There are also several shells available on Shapeways for different modern loco's as well, many using old Lionel chassis and brew-ups created from other models. A very long thread has been posted elsewhere on the development of a photo etched SD 40-2 model. The article is a real testament to focus and determination.

    There is another well established forum just for TT scale, I'll have to check with the ADMIN here if it's proper to reference them with a link or not. I am hoping by getting TT scale on the boards there will be a bit more visibility and interest that could spur on more offerings. Stay tuned.
     
  2. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Joe-

    The answer to your question can be found here:

    http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/policy-other-forums.82366/
     
  3. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    I remember being interested when I saw the Rokal ads in old MR magazines.

    Doug
     
  4. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    I am Russian, and I like TT scale. Here in Russia it is even more popular than N scale.
    In fact the biggest problem for us TTers is to find the appropriate locomotive. MTB offered the SW1200 in TT several years ago, and Russian company "Norkin-model" offered the etched brass kit of the SD-45. Also the German company Lok-n-Roll (www.lok-n-roll.de) offers some lovomotives (EMD E-7, ALCO FA, etc).
    But if you want to scratchbuild the locomotive, or get some old kit made by Kemtron or PVM, you can use some German locomotive made by Tillig as power unit. For example, my ALCO FA-1 uses the BR218 as power unit

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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  5. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    .[​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    Nice looking FA
     
  7. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    It is fascinating to see someone modeling the pre-1961 Soo Line, in Russia. I am wondering what attracted you to that company?
     
  8. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    To say the truth, it was accidentally.
    When I started to collect American TT, my first locomotive was lettered as DSS&A.
    It was old Consolidation steam locomotive, made by HP Products in 1950s.
    [​IMG]
    I liked it; so as a sign of respect to it and its previous owner I decided to keep it DSS&A. So I had to make my railroad DSS&A / SOO.

    From the other point of view, there are a lot of German stuff available in TT. So I decided to model a region with a big percentage of native Germans. If so,
    I can use some German building or even car on my layout. If anybody notice it, I can answer - "It is Mr.Muller or Mr.Borman's house, he is native German, and he'd built a German-style house and/or brought this car from his motherland"
    So, maybe Pennsilvania or Wisconsin? Soo Line operated in Wisconsin, so Wisconsin seemed a good idea for me.

    Finally, I like cheese, and as I know, Wisconsin is a "Cheese State", "America's Dairyland", isn't it? :)

    In fact, all that reasons do not play too significant role for me now. Later I decided not to use German houses - they are too common in TT and too familiar to German and Russian TTers. I like something unusual!
    But I still did not want to repaint my old steam locomotive. Then, Czech company MTB have offered SW1200 in TT - first ready-to-run locomtive in TT for 50 years! I had to buy one; one of the options was SOO Line again (red-and-white livery).
    [​IMG]
    Ok, now I had two SOO line lovomotives. My way was obviously determined! :)

    And, ultimately, I like that maroon livery!

    The only question for me is coal traffic. I have nice coal mine building kit and some hoppers. I wonder, if there were any coal mines served by SOO Line ?..
     

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  9. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Not sure about coal traffic, but they did serve iron ore operations in the "Upper" peninsula of Michigan.
     
  10. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    Was the Soo Line ever involved in the coal operations in Iowa or Illinois?

    Doug
     
  11. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Might have hauled some coal out of Canada?
     
  12. ddechamp71

    ddechamp71 TrainBoard Member

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    ... Must have been rather difficult to gather American prototype stuff, as well as 1:1 scale railroad data, in Russia while in the communist era, am I wrong ? :)

    Dom
     
  13. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    In the communist era, yes.
    But today we have the Internet, so we can - virtually - be in every place in the world.

    BTW, we nevertheless knew something about American stuff. American RSD-1 diesel, S-160 and "Russian Decapod" steam locomotives were quite famililar to us. The same thing about the Ford A car, Studebaker truck, Willys jeep, Caterpillar and Fordson tractors, etc. ;)
     
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  14. ddechamp71

    ddechamp71 TrainBoard Member

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    True, some derivative of RSD-1 seem to have been used on soviet railroads. I even had heard of a bunch of GP9, but I've never been able to find any data about this.

    Dom
     
  15. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    I sincerely doubt the GP-9 was ever exported there. It's a very Cold War design.

    The RSD-1, on the other hand, used to be known as The Locomotive that Saved Russia. After Hitler sent the Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and the 'pocket battleships' and other heavy cruisers to Norway in mid-1941, the Trans-Iranian Railway became a big priority because it took a lot of Navy to escort convoys past all that firepower. Every one of the few early RS-1 ALCOs in service was requisitioned and put on those odd C trucks (you've seen them on Alaska Railroad locomotives), and that pioneer roadswitcher became a big production priority. They went to Iran, and shipped supplies to the Soviets from the southwest.

    The Soviets built a lot of copies of them for many years--maybe even longer than the RS-1 itself was in production (and it was built until 1957)!

    Welcome, Arseny! Don't forget the 1955-1956 Packard! None of them were sent to the Soviet Union, but the tooling to produce the bodies was early in 1957. ZIL and ZIS used them for years.

    image.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  16. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    The GP7 nor GP9 were never used in USSR. although RSD-1s were very popular. RSD-1 was named "Da" on Soviet railroads (Diesel, Alco). The Russian copy of RSD-1 was named TE1, and later derivatives and modified versions are in production until 2000s.
    Oddly enough, one of the first road diesel lovomotives was build in RUssia (Shch-El-1), but the "clever" communist government prefered to develop steam.

    Another American diesel locomotive used in USSR was Baldwin 0-6-6-0 1000 (30 units were exported in USSR in 1945), it was named Db (Diesel, Baldwin), but they were not too good and quickly run out of service.
    No other American diesel locomotives were used in USSR.

    Yes, I know about Packards. But there are rumors only, the myth. The same thing is with the 1942 Packard - it looks very close to the Soviet ZiS-110. But some Russian collectors tried to repair and restore old ZiS trucks using spare parts and sheet metal from Packard, and failed. The ZIS-110 shares no sheet metal with any Packard, so it is not exact copy.
    As concerns 1955-1956 Packards - yes, the front size, the "face", is almost identical with Soviet ZiL-111 and Chaika (Seagull) car, but the rear side and passenger cabin is completely different.
    I have a Chaika in TT and I hope to use it to build the Packard in TT.

    The same thing is with the ZiM car - it looks almost identical with the 1949 Cadillac. My Ukrainian friend Nikolay (RailTT company) tried to use TT-scale model of ZiM to build the Cadillac. As he discovered, the Cadillac's hood is much longer, while the cabin is much shorter.
    In fact there were a lot of other cars, trucks and industial equipment - ZiS-5 truck (copy of 1928 Autocar), ZiS-150 (copy of International Harvester K7 truck), Stalinets S-80 tractor (copy of Caterpillar D7, etc., etc.). But in communist era we never knew about it, while Studebakers or Willyses were well-known. My grandmother (she was the geologist) even called every off-road car "willys".

    Ok, I'll show you the small gas station. It was built from the N scale Woodland Scenics kit, but raised a little to match the TT.
    You can see the 1942 Packard convertible - it was built using the front part of the ZiS-110 model and rear part of the 1947 Cadillac (available in TT).
    The truck is 1928 Autocar Dispatch Model SA - it was built from the Soviet ZiS-5 model.

    IMG_8369_s.jpg
    It is not my work, but made by my friend Jakob.
     
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  17. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    No, my friend, it's no myth. It was common knowledge here back in those days that Packard had that overseas customer for their used tooling. The Soviet ambassadors to the U.S. used a Packard from 1941, and that's how the Politburo became familiar with the brand. The tooling the Soviets bought last, as Packard was failing, was the latest version of the front end combined with the Henney limousine tooling, which is why it looks different from the simple sedans. Or, if they didn't buy tooling from the bankrupt Henney, they used the coupe rear section and lengthened the roof, just as Henney had done before them.

    image.jpg

    And yes, the tooling was modified some, so panels are unlikely to swap out with no problems. For example, the ZIL and Chaika used different hoods, so you could tell them apart by the grill shape. Mechanically they were quite different from Packards. As for those from the 1940s, those workmen might have gotten the wrong Packard. Packard had several models with several different hood lengths, and only sold one set of tooling to ZIL.

    I'm jealous of those ZIL models you have access to. It isn't easy to find minature Packards here! Or Autocars, for that matter!

    There's a fun article in one of our old car magazines--Hemmings Classic--about a fellow in Scandinavia who has an old Packard Clipper and used to drive past the Soviet embassy (they had a Chaika) just to see what happened. He actually had a couple of adventures when his Clipper was mistaken for the Chaika. I wish I could link the article, but they don't seem to have it online.

    Thanks for the history! Yeah, those Baldwins with the VO diesel went over about as well here. And, yes, the Soviets had diesel-electric express engines on the rails about 1936. I saw an old book on streamlined locomotive design by Raymond Loewy which put a picture of those right up next to a picture of Santa Fe numbers 1A/1B (later 1 and 1A) as examples of ugly locomotive design. I wish I had a copy of that book!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  18. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    No-no-no, it was common ...myth. :)
    Of course, no doubt that Soviet high-ranking leaders and executives liked Packards and used Packards, in 1930s and later. Stalin used Packards. As I know, Franklin Roosevelt granted two 1942 Packards to Stalin in 1941 or 1942.
    Of course, ZiS-110 resembled the 1942 Packard model 160 or 180.
    In 1940s, ZiS plant was ordered to copy the Packard. But they did not make exact copy. While the external decor elements were intentionally designed to heavily resemble pre-war Packards, favoured by Stalin, the passenger cabin was made wider. It looks like they used Buick or Cadillac body as prototype.
    Look at the photos and notice the body, not only the front size:

    1942-Packard-160_1.jpg zis-110_limo.jpg
    (1942 Packard 160 on the left side, ZiS-110 on the right side)

    And again, there is a strong evidence: some Russian collectors and restorers tried to repair and restore old ZiS-110 cars using sheet metal from Packards. They failed. Although the cars look quite similar, the parts and details differ. At least in exterior, I do not know about engine.

    As concerns 1954-1955 Packards and ZiS-111: again, Soviet leaders liked Packards. and again that car-building plant (now ZiL, it was renamed after Stalin's death and destalinisation) was ordered to copy 1955 Packard.
    1024px-1955-Packard-Patrician-Touring-Sedan.jpg 1024px-1955-Packard-Patrician-4dr-Sedan-rear.jpg zil_111_1.jpg zil-111-03.jpg
    (Tho photos on the left are Packards, two photos on the right are ZiL-111, sedan/limo and convertible).

    Look, ZiL is much longer.
    If Packard produce long-based limousine in 1954-1955, it would look like ZiL. But it did not.

    As concerns Chaika - it was produced by GAZ plant (another car-building plant, placed in the city of Gorky, on the Volga river). BTW, the GAZ plant was built by Ford company in 1930s.
    This vehicle is one step down from the ZIL-111 limousine. It was intended for the regional leaders (governors), ministers, etc. For Soviet embassies, too. It was designed in the same style as ZiL-111, but differed a little.
    1024px-Russian_car_GAZ-13_Chaika.jpg 1455194712186040629.jpg
    It was much more popular in USSR than ZiL. Married people could rent a Chaika as wedding limousine.

    Unfortunately, there is Chaika model available in TT, but no ZiL-111 available. But I hope it will be possible to make 1955 Packard from Chaika. Or maybe some Russian company produce ZiL-111 in TT.

    Of course, ZiS-110 and ZiL-111 design was inspired by Packard and that cars intended Packard a lot, but they were not exact copies.
    But don't worry! We've copied and imported such a lot of American cars, trucks and machinery in 1930s-1950s, that we do not need to discuss a lot about Packards. :)
    For example, "Stalinets" S-80 tractor is a strict copy of Caterpillar. There was a special order by Stalin: "Just copy that American tractor and DO'NT CHANGE ANYTHING!" :)
     
  19. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    But I like discussing Packards! ;) It's nice to find someone with an interest in them, and more knowledge about ZILs than anyone I ever talked to before! I'm learning things! But I really don't want to start an argument.

    Well, yes, there was a limousine Packard by the coachbuilder Henney in 1953-1954. That was the same basic body as the 1955-1956, though Packard gave it a heavy 'facelfit' that made it look quite different. That's the photo I loaded above, in post 17 (a '54). It looks quite a lot like the ZIL and Chaika. I don't know if it was the Henney roof tooling that the Soviets used or not. Many American limousines in those days were made by using the four doors of the sedan (with a more square window for the rear door) with the rear section of the two door model. ZIL certainly could have made that modification with ease, as well as the less arched grille and the more arched wheel openings. The trim is definitely different.

    Here's an artist rendering of the 1953 limo from the brochure. But the photo in 17 above better shows how similar the rooflines are between that and the ZIL/Chaika. This artist is off a little in his proportions, like he was having trouble fitting this long a car on the page:

    [​IMG]

    I can't say from personal knowledge that the body tooling was sold by Packard to Russia. All I know is, I would expect TASS to deny it, and people in Detroit at the time, who were in a position to know, flatly said it was being done. And it was the top of the line tooling, not the 160. Here's a Packard 180, which does have wider doors:

    image.jpg

    I think the truth is in between. I still think it's true that Packard sold their used tooling to ZIL. But it's clearly true--just looking at the ZIL's full fenders, so unlike the sidemount fenders above--that ZIL modified those designs a lot more than Americans usually give them credit for. Even if they modified most of the external sheet metal panels, it would have save a lot of time and expense in engineering to buy the tooling for the basic body structure.

    And no, mechanically the cars are quite different. The Soviet automatic transmission was better than Packard's Ultramatic, though nothing was as good as Packard's Torsion-Level suspension. Even today, there's nothing to compare to that. The engines were of similar type--both had V-8s with overhead valves by the mid 1950s--but definitely not the same design. The Russian instrument panels are unique. The ZIL and Chaika were their own designs.

    I'm glad ZIL is still around. Their latest limousines may be a bit old fashioned externally, but oh my, what a nice place to ride!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  20. Arseny

    Arseny New Member

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    As I've read in Wikipedia, "according to James Ward's book The Fall of Packard, page 46, he found no supporting evidence in the Packard archives of such a transfer"
    I suppose, ZiS/ZiL engineers used the reverse engineering method.

    I know about Packard limousines built by Henney, but only 1953-1954 models (and earlier ones). I've never seen the 1955-1956 Packard limousines. As I know, Packard did not produce long "commercial" chassis in 1954-1955, so nor Packard ambulances nor heares were built in that years. Am I right?
    (It's very pity, I beleive the 1955 Packard hearse would look gorgeous).
    BTW, the ambulance version of Chaika existed, as ambulance for high-rank executives. Very rare model, only 20 cars were produced.
    amb6_3.jpg

    As concerns ZiL - for today ZiL plant is closed. Most of the workshop building were demolished, and the former plant territory is used for residential buildings.
    Last ZiL truck was made in 2016.

    But some enthusiasts have founded new company and acquired the former passenger car workshop and equipment. They produce new cars (very small amount), restore and repair old ZiL cars and even buses. The price is $300.000 and up.
    ZiL-41041 sedan built in 2015:
    zil2125754.jpg
     
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