Rumor, BNSF may get rid of GP60Ms

[Lyon_Wonder]

http://www.locophotos.com/Read.php?ThreadID=4500

A post on locophotos.com claims BNSF will gradually retire their GP60Ms, though BNSF 130 has already been repainted into H3. The person believes it has something do due with the GP60M's being too rough to ride on due to the widebody cab. If true I wonder if this retirement pertains only to GP60M, and not other high hp 4 axle units such as conventional cab GP60s, B40-8s and the GP60M's GE counterpart, the B40-8W?

[YoHo]

I have a hard time believing that they're getting rid of them NOW because of the ride problems. They've always had ride problems.

For what it's worth, I've seen them dispatched on Transcon trains in the lead a couple times as recently is early last fall. Maybe the former ATSF engineers have rear ends made of softer stuff. ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if leases were coming up and they were simply not being renewed. Although again, they see pretty regular use.

[doofus]

I think you will see all of those models on the "scrapper" list soon.

[Mopac3092]

not to mention they are similar to sd50's and 60's. FUEL GUZZLERS!!!!!

[sp4009]

They don't pull worth a darn on the hill. I do like running them though.

[YoHo]

What did you like about them?

Didn't SF typically run shorter trains on the their hotshot intermodal back when these were bought?

[Jack Doran]

I bet we see a lot of the older units head to the retiring lines as the newer stuff comes in. Although the way the new ones are breaking they may have to stay around a little longer.

[Matthew Roberts]

That would be a sad day indeed, I always liked the only original U.S. GP wide cabs!

[Robbman]

not to mention they are similar to sd50's and 60's. FUEL GUZZLERS!!!!!

60 and 70 series are 710s... not 645s like the 50 series.

[inch53]

Hate to see them go, but as new EPA clean air reg are beginning to start. I think there'll be alot of the older engines retired

[CP&E 3207]

Im a little surprised that BNSF wants to get rid of their GP60M's since they still running a handful of GP9's, SD9's and other rare locomotives.

IF those units are removed from they roster I'm sure they won't get scrapped anytime soon. NRE and/or LTE will pick them up and put them back on the rails.

[Matthew Roberts]

Would that mean that the -B units might be on the way out, too??? :sad:

[friscobob]

BNSF has been following the lead of UP and assigning their GP60s to rock trains- I managed to catch a trio on the point of a northbound empty at Sherman. Leading were two GP60Ms still in Warbonnet colors, with a GP60 Cub Scout in the middle. Trailing were 60 or so Ortner hoppers with TTIX reporting marks.

[Kevin M]

In the Northwest I know that most enginers do not like them as leaders because of there rough ride and slippery ride. Also the wide cab does not make them good on local jobs. Could they be rebuilt to a spartan cab?
Kevin

[LADiver]

Just a quick note, all gp60's have wide cabs. The cabs all go from the entire width of the loco. Some however have the Wide nose cab from Canada installed.

[Lenny53]

Some however have the Wide nose cab from Canada installed.
The GP60Ms have 2 piece front windows and do not have the Canadian Safety Cab which has 4 piece front windows.

[YoHo]

Caught a 60M on Cajon sunday. Not in the lead though.

[LADiver]

The GP60Ms have 2 piece front windows and do not have the Canadian Safety Cab which has 4 piece front windows.

Pet peeve of mine. So if you invent the lastest car design that gets 120 mpg and I split the front window into 2 pieces it is no longer your design! The Safety CAb is a CANADIAN invention.

[doofus]

Pet peeve of mine. So if you invent the lastest car design that gets 120 mpg and I split the front window into 2 pieces it is no longer your design! The Safety CAb is a CANADIAN invention.

You really mean- "North Amercan Safety Cab."

[Mopac3092]

robbmann they are still fuel guzzlers, either way.

[Ed Pinkley#2]

You is right Mitch. We both can remember seeing the roundhouse full of about 30+ SD60's and then other shut down in the yards. NS wouldn't and still doesn't run them unless power is needed. Those are one of the first units to be put in shutdown tracks due to Fuel Consumption. Guzzle Guzzle Guzzle...... I think someone at OPEC invented the SD60 series

[Robbman]

In railroad terms of fuel efficiency, i.e, gallon per ton-miles hauled, 70 series are only ~ %2 more efficient than 60 series... 60 series on the other hand, are ~ 15% more efficient than 50 series. Sorry, but 60 series are not the fuel guzzlers 50 series are.

NS uses it's 60 series every day around here... I've never seen a GP59, GP60, SD60, 60I or 60M in storage in Roanoke.

[Mopac3092]

sorry but i was an engineer, i know what i am talking about when fuel conservation comes into play, if we didn't shut them down it was our ass. and yes the 60 series guzzle diesel like you wouldn't believe. if you work for the ns or any other rr then you would know! didn't know roanoke was a storage place, but decatur IS!

[friscobob]

Just a quick note, all gp60's have wide cabs. The cabs all go from the entire width of the loco. Some however have the Wide nose cab from Canada installed.

A common error made when folks see the wide noses on diesels- ALL EMDs and GEs (unless built otherwise) have cabs that are as wide as the walkways of the locomotive, one to the other.

[Don Rickle]

They are rough riders but all four axle motors tend to be. The interior cab design is a little lacking and kind of unique as wide cabs go. If you want something from the fridge, most of the time you must say "excuse me" to the conductor because the fridge is right near his knees. He will have to move his knee before you can open the fridge.

The are really showing their age in the cab. I swear I saw a 2 inch cock roach in the toilet compartment once...that was the only time I have ever seen a roach on an engine.

They constantly make a squeeky sound while in motion. The conductor's desk is awkward. I'm not the tallest guy in the world but the seats are kind of low...I like to sit on my foot while running them.

I will say it is a welcome sight to have a EMD in the consist. GE's seem to be getting even slower when loading. Many times with a GE only consist a conductor will give you a second hand sign thinking you missed the first sign. You didn't miss it, GE's are just so slow in loading!

I haven't heard anything about their retirement but that doesn't mean much. I wouldn't be surprised if they are sold and show up again with FURX markings, like much of the old BN SD40s.

[Ed Pinkley#2]

I do agree the Wide cab version rides rougher than the standard cab version. Don't know why that is though. Been on quite a few of the GP60M's and they weren't anything to write home about. They are set up weird on the inside. The bathrooms are set up different and very small and the rocking back and fourth was just as bad as the SD60 series. They would pull their little guts out though, I must give them credit for that. Just wondering if this means an end to the B units also?

[YoHo]

So we have a bunch of different railraod guys saying in some cases completely opposite things.
They don't pull worth a darn/They pull their guts out
They're guzzlers/They're not the different from the 70s

Anyone care to distill it all and try to be definitive. Right now it's choose your favorite hogger.

The GP60ms were very early on in the development of the modern Safetycab for US roads. I feel like they had a different name for that cab. In fact, I think ATSF did a lot of the design work. I'm curious about what an ATSF Hogger who ran them new has to say. Presumably, Santa Fe had them built that way for a reason.

As for their rough riding, I was under the impression that that was due to the weight of the cab, but then, do the old CN GP40-2LWs have the same problem?

[YoHo]

Incidently, I see UP using their old 60 series engines all the time in switching and MOW service. If they were guzzlers, wouldn't switching be a poor application?

[HemiAdda2d]

Why is this thread picking on the GP60? There have been other locos that have been lots more fuel-hungry: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/fueluse.htm

Sure, the '60 may be a thirsty machine, but if it does what it was designed to do, and the RR gets its investment out of it, why should we give a hoot? If the RR deems them uneconomical, and proceeds to remove them from the roster, then that's their perogative.

As for rough-riding, it has been long-established that 4-axle units are rough riders, hence the original moniker for the SD7/9 series as 'Cadillacs'...... ;)

[YoHo]

If I read that chart right, The Dash-9 is actually less fuel efficent then the 60 and the 70MAC is less fuel efficent then the 60. You're getting more horses out of the dash-9 though. They're more efficent then the Dash-8s which are closer to their HP rating.

So the only open question is how do they load and pull?

[HemiAdda2d]

I'll that question for the experts... I was merely presenting the facts. ;)

[doofus]

It also depends on the all around usefullness of the locomotive. Put a GP 60 up against a MAC on a 2% grade for a one and half hour pull. I think you know what will happen. Adhesion factors are what the carrier is looking at. How much can a loco pull and not slip. That is why you see so many six axle units on class one carriers. Because of adhesion factors. A six axle unit has better adhesion than a four axle unit. More tonnage per unit per mile. The high horsepower ratings of the four axle units hasn't justified lower tonnage capabilities

EPA exhaust ratings are becoming a huge factor in wheather or not a locomotive is used. The cost involved in retro-fitting locos to meet EPA Tier standards is also considered.

When determining wheather you can pull a hill or not, you cannot go by horsepower alone. You must know the adhesion qualities, short time ratings, and other mechanical limits of the locos in your charge. You can have all of the horsepower in the world, but if you can't put it down and keep it down on the rail, it won't do you any good.

There is a reason you only see AC 4400s, C 44-9s, SD70Ms and SD 70MACs nearly everywhere you look.

[LADiver]

You really mean- "North Amercan Safety Cab."

No Doofus, I stand by my call that it is a Canadian cab. I even have Kalmbach books calling that. It was not until UP put them on that any one paid them much notice. And yes they did modify it with slants, windows etc. Thats like saying Fords still have to look like model T's, no, things evolve.

[YoHo]

You do see those GP60ms on the transcon all the time and the B40s too. I assume that with these, they're going for speed more then low speed drag. This is time sensitive intermodal. I seem to recall reading that when they were built. I would think by skipping Raton, they've pretty much removed the worst of the grades except for Cajon itself and Tehachapi. And again, the 60ms are on these hills all the time.

I can't imagine that they would use these in this application if they weren't competant at it.

[doofus]

They are kept around for use when other units aren't available. They aren't on the preferred list. It still comes down to meeting all of the criteria the carrier desires. The more places they can be used reilably, the more likely they will be kept on the roster. With the increase in business for the carrier, you will continue to see them. But when business turns downward or they lease more power, these will probably be the first to be let go. They can use the North American Cab for deadheading purposes. One more reason to keep them around. But when newer units with North American Cabs show up........................

[friscobob]

This explains why I see UP using GP60s (all ex-Cotton belt with standard-size noses) on Chico Sub rock trains. Four to six are used in this service on the ex-Rock Island line between Chico and the Ft. Worth area. The only wide-nose GP60s I've ever seen are the BNSF units, in painted anywhere from ATSF Warbonnet to H2 paint.

As for the cab debate, the only new diesels I've seen are the NS and IC SD70s with standard noses- just about all the rest of the power have wide-nose North American cabs. The concept of such a setup may have originated in Canada, but it's now seen all over the continent- hence its name. A few hardheads may stick with the term Canadian cabs (and some may even recognize the term), but North American safety cabs is more recognizable and used. This whole silly debate over which is correct is like the lashup vs. power consist debate, and just as pointlessss. I can find better things to be worked up over than the name given to a wide-nosed cab....

[Ed Pinkley#2]

Much like anything else when it is new it does better than when it has several years on it and has been put through the ringer a time or two. I liked the pulling power of the GP60's and GP60M's. They pull better when they are lashed up with one or two more. The NS started with GP59's and GP60 for triple crown service only. You would see 3 of them pulling and they did a great job at it. And the Dynamic brake was almost like starting and stopping a car. Gotta love that. We don't see them much around here anymore because we can put one 6 axle and 150 trailers and away we go. We aren't setting any speed records by any means but I don't pay the bills I just collect a paycheck so they can do what they want.
As far as fuel consumption goes the SD60/SD50 locomotives are the first priority locomotives for the NS to leave sit until needed if traffic gets slow. When traffic is heavy and they are needed though they run'em if they got'em. The SD60 series are good pullers also though the SD60m's are some rock and roll engines. I am very surprised with the rocking that they do they don't fly off the rails. Anyone who has been on one can tell you that.
Personally I would take 2 GE's over tonnage than I would 2 EMD's. The GE's seem to claw their way up a hill where the EMD's have a tendancy to get wheel slip. I don't know why but from the many times it has happened to me that is the outcome.
As far as loading the EMD is a clear winner there. You give them a notch and they will come to life. You give a GE a notch and it gets back to you on the power thing when it is ready. Nothing is worse than stopping shot of a joint in the rain and waiting for the GE to load up for that last 2 feet to the coupling.

[Triplex]

The only wide-nose GP60s I've ever seen are the BNSF units, in painted anywhere from ATSF Warbonnet to H2 paint. That's because only ATSF ordered the widenose version. As for the cab debate, the only new diesels I've seen are the NS and IC SD70s with standard noses- just about all the rest of the power have wide-nose North American cabs. After EMD's 60-series and GE's Dash 8s, the only standard-nose engines have been:
125 C40-9s delivered to NS in 1995
56 SD70s delivered to NS in 1993-94
24 SD70s delivered to CR (at NS request) in 1998
40 SD70s delivered to IC in 1995 and 1999, thus including the last domestic standard-nose engines from a major builder.

http://www.thedieselshop.us/GE_Dash9.HTML
http://www.trainweb.org/emdloco/sd70.htm

[friscobob]

That's nice and all, but we're focusing on the Santa Fe GP60Ms- well, GP60s in general. The rest is just useless information in this conversation.

[Ed Pinkley#2]

I think people are talking about several different engines here and getting good info on them.

[Lenny53]

You really mean- "North Amercan Safety Cab."
No, I mean the Canadian Safety Cab which specs were developed by CN and introduced in 1973 on MLW M420s and EMDD GP38-2Ws.

[Lenny53]

As for the cab debate, the only new diesels I've seen are the NS and IC SD70s with standard noses- just about all the rest of the power have wide-nose North American cabs. The concept of such a setup may have originated in Canada, but it's now seen all over the continent- hence its name. A few hardheads may stick with the term Canadian cabs (and some may even recognize the term), but North American safety cabs is more recognizable and used.
You are trying to lump apples with oranges. The Canadian Safety Cab has a very stringent set of specifications including minimum thickness of the steel plating used, no window allowed in the nose door and a strict maximium size of any glass pane in the cab. All Canadian Safety Cabs have 4 front windows whether they wre built by MLW/BBD, EMDD or GE. The specs were developed by CN and there is no longer any locos being built to these specs. The last units to be manufactured with the Canadian Safety Cab was CN's first order of dash-9s.

[bierbass]

Is what we are distilling from this safety cab debate that there are 2 distinct designs of the safety cab?

[YoHo]

Not even that's true, because even when looking only a units built for the U.S, there are different standards that the cabs were built to.

[Ed Pinkley#2]

Yeah I can think of 7 different standards right off the top of my head. Every railroad is different.

[friscobob]

Don't get me wrong, but when it comes to wide-nose cabs, my give-a-rip meter is broken as to what they're called. Anymore, finding new locomotives with standard noses is akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

North Amercian, Canadian, who cares? It's all wide-nose cabs to me, and EMD and GE have their own variations. If it originated in Canada, fine.

Lessee.......we WERE discussing the possible disappearance of GP60Ms from the BNSF roster at one point, weren't we? :D