Train make-up or Consist Configuration

[Mr X]

Any suggestions on what should be the train make-up or consist configuration for my passenger train?

Is there any specific order that the cars should go?

I have the following cars and engines:

PA-1 Diesel Locomotive
PB-1 Diesel Locomotive
Baggage
RPO
Sleeper
Sleeper
Coach
Coach
Dinner
Dome
ObservationWhat I am looking for is what order do the cars go in for a normal passenger train consist? I think we can all agree that the locomotives come first and the observation car comes last. Other than that what is the way to arrange these cars so they look the most prototypical? I have numbered the cars so we may be able to make a list similar to the following in the responses.

Train Configuration example 1: 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
Train Configuration example 2: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

Example 1 has: A unit B unit B unit A unit and the rest of the cars in the order which I presented

Example 2 has: A unit B unit B unit and the rest of the cars in the order which I presented.

Thank you in advance for the help.

Mr X

[r_i_straw]

Usually the order would have been baggage, coaches, lounge, diner, sleepers and observation. Don't know if EL had any domes but use it for a lounge. The only consist information I have is for train #5, the "World's Fair" that ran from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Chicago on Nov. 6, 1964.
E8A 833
E8A 828
PA-1 850
Box Express DL&W 10012
Box Express CMStP&P 1620
Baggage NYC 8242
Express Refer NRC 603
RPO EL 692
Baggage Express Erie 210
Baggage Express Erie 546
Coach EL 1314
Coach EL 1317
Coach EL 1316
Dining-Lounge EL 747
10-6 Sleeper EL Tioughnioga

[SecretWeapon]

Russ,
As usual,your correct. Also EL had no domes. Which is why I'd like to unload the couple I have.

[Flash Blackman]

Interesting to me that, on the EL consist, the passenger/people type cars were all EL. The head end cars were a mix of other roads besides EL. I would expect a mix on passenger cars where roads were interchanging or sharing power (COSF, for example) but was this normal for all passenger trains?

[Mr X]

Usually the order would have been baggage, coaches, lounge, diner, sleepers and observation. Don't know if EL had any domes but use it for a lounge. The only consist information I have is for train #5, the "World's Fair" that ran from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Chicago on Nov. 6, 1964.
E8A 833
E8A 828
PA-1 850
Box Express DL&W 10012
Box Express CMStP&P 1620
Baggage NYC 8242
Express Refer NRC 603
RPO EL 692
Baggage Express Erie 210
Baggage Express Erie 546
Coach EL 1314
Coach EL 1317
Coach EL 1316
Dining-Lounge EL 747
10-6 Sleeper EL Tioughnioga

So sleepers in general go towards the rear of the train? Is this correct? I would have thought the sleepers would have gone towards the front of the train due to the "slack" in trains. But then again the whistle from the locomotive might keep people awake.

I have ridden on a passenger train only four times in my life. One was a tourist train with a steam engine (which really does not count,) the other two Amtrak when I was little and the other was in Russia. The train in Russia is the only one that I can truly remember paying much attention to. We were in a sleeper car towards the front of the train but of course behind the baggage cars. We were advised not to leave our car or to walk around but we would have had to walk through coaches to get to the dinning/bar car and eventually back further if it even had an observation car.

So I guess my question is this: I assume and perhaps I am incorrect that First Class cars are normally sleepers, observation, and Dome, the second class is coaches only since they only have chairs.

How are the classes broken out? I truly do not care if the Erie Lackawanna ever had a Dome car or not, but since I have one I would like to see if it should go up front or towards the back? Also, should sleepers go towards the back and the coaches up front or vice versus? Is the dinner near the rear or towards the front in a short (11 cars including locos) passenger train? If I do place an express refrigerator in there, do they normally go right next to locos or in between the baggage and RPO? I would probably only have one or two of them if at all.

Should it be like this?

PA-1 - PB-1 - (Express refrigerator/box) - Baggage - RPO - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? – Observation

or

PA-1 - PB-1 - Baggage - (Express refrigerator/box) - RPO - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - Observation

I believe that the configuration below is what r_i_straw had recommended. Is this close to being "correct" or are there any additional recommendations? Where in the configuration would you place the express refrigerator cars?

PA-1 - PB-1 - baggage - RPO - Coach - Coach - Dome (my non-prototypical lounge), diner, sleeper, sleeper and observation.

Thank you for the help.

Mr X

[r_i_straw]

PA-1 - PB-1 - baggage - RPO - Coach - Coach - Dome (my non-prototypical lounge), diner, sleeper, sleeper and observation.
Yeah, that would work. Way back in steam days with no air conditioning, the further back in the train you were the less soot, smoke and cinders you had blowing into your car. So they put first class passengers as far back as they could. There are many accounts by travelers back then just accepted black soot floating in their water glass and butter dish in the diner. That carried over into diesel and AC days until Amtrak where typically now sleepers can show up in front of the diner and lounge. Some Amtrak trains still have the sleepers at the rear. There are other exceptions from pre-Amtrak days like during winter on a long train the first class section would be in front to be closer to the steam source to stay warm. By the time the steam pipe got to the last car, there was not much left.

[Mr X]

Seriously, it is like having access to my own live encyclopedia here. You and some of the other members truly do provide a wealth of valuable information. It is much appreciated! I get to learn something new every time I post it seems. I love history and learning new things.

Mr X

[Dave Jones]

I don't know about E-L passenger trains, nor will I have much, if any such traffic on my layout. However, the variations in the consist of passenger trains is fascinating. There was apparently, an ideal for passenger trains, such as power-head end cars-coaches-diner-pullman, but apparently the railroads weren't always capable of arranging trains that way.

Slack was not typically a problem for passenger cars due to "tight-lock" coupling which seemed to eliminate most, if not all slack action. Pullman cars were (normally) placed at the end of a train due to the fact that many of these cars on long distance runs were picked up during the night, being occupied earlier by the passengers.

Having watched a few passenger trains being uncoupled toward the head end, it was not as simple as pickup/setouts for freights what with air, signal, and steam hoses having to be done and undone. And, on some roads, union craft lines would require that such work be done by a member of the mechanical department, rather than train crew.

For the same reason, some "head end" cars could be found coupled to the rear of a passenger train rather than the front. I've seen a few of the secondary passenger trains in the southeast with from one to four express cars coupled at the rear with flags and a marker light tied to the rear-most coupler.

Also, with the coming of piggy back service in the sixties many secondary passenger trains carried several TOFC cars on the rear end, sometimes with or without a caboose - yes, exactly as per freights of the era.

Again, I have no knowledge of E-L passenger trains, but it appears that while there may be an ideal format for such trains, as in many other instances, function was more important than form.

[r_i_straw]

Speaking of exceptions, here is a steam era Lackawanna train from Aug. 30, 1943. Train 3 from Hoboken to Buffalo. Must have been that low soot anthracite coal that Phoebe Snow was always bragging about.

4-6-4 Locomotive DL&W 1151
RPO-Baggage DL&W 1812
Parlor-Buffet Lounge Pullman Princess Margaret
12-1 Pullman Imola
Coach DL&W 245
Coach DL&W 238
Coach NKP 62
Coach DL&W 241
Diner DL&W 466
Coach DL&W 212
Coach DL&W 252
Coach DL&W 272

The Erie on the other hand did things the more normal way. The Erie Limited train #1, New York to Chicago, June 2, 1947.

4-6-2 Locomotive Erie 2935
Baggage-Express Erie 575
Baggage-Express Erie 529
RPO Baggage Erie 609
Coach Erie 1008
Coach Erie 2205
Coach Erie 2256
Dining-Lounge Erie 946
10-1-2 Pullman Scenic Island
6-6-4 Pullman American Life (light weight)
12-1 Pullman Telos

[Mr X]

To r_i_straw and Dave:

Since you guys are the greatest. I wanted to share something with you. I use a really cool web site from time to time when I would like to get "close" to prototype.

It does not only focus on passenger service, but this site does have several different pictures of passenger cars and anything else that you could think of for passenger service.

The first link below happens to be for the EL site for passenger cars/service but there are several others as well. Most of the pictures are copyrighted so they would not be able to posted here with out permission. But they do give permission to use them for your own private use and for modeling purposes.

Erie Lackawanna Passenger Link
http://gelwood.railfan.net/el/pax/pax.html

Main Erie Lackawanna, Lackawanna, Erie site
http://gelwood.railfan.net/el/el.html

Here is all the other railroads listed - Just simply click a letter and go!
http://gelwood.railfan.net/#e

Such as the Sea Board Airline - any interest Dave?
http://gelwood.railfan.net/sal/sal.html

Disclaimer: All photos are copyright by George Elwood, from my collection with credit to the photographer or by the submitter. The photos may be used by individuals for their personal non-commercial use (screen savers, modeling effort, photo albums) without restriction. Reposting or other use REQUIRES permission from the owner of the image or data.

Dave, it was funny you had mentioned having the piggy back right in the middle of the train. I actually found a picture of just that on the EL site. Try this one out: http://gelwood.railfan.net/el/pax/el-pax-trn-bt.jpg - please do not post this image any where else the link was provided as reference for modeling.

Mr X

[Dave Jones]

Mr. X - Sorry I originally missed your post. There does seem to be a prototype for almost everything, have a feeling that those baggage and passenger cars trailing the piggy-back are being dead-headed somewhere, although they could be in use for "dead heads", pass riders, or possibly as the conductor's caboose.

I understand that Seaboard had a couple of "flexi-van" cars that apparently were often at the head end of passenger trains, so they must/might have had steam lines.

That is one of the things that I found so fascinating about main line railroading, you never knew what was coming next. I believe that as you research the E-L passenger service you'll find them every so often
"breaking the rules" as it applied to the consist of passenger trains.

[Frank Campagna]

It's probably a secondary passenger train. The NYC was replacing baggage cars with flexivans on their passenger trains in the sixties. I'm working on a late 50's passenger train. Two major cities as terminals, very small towns in between. I plan on having mostly a variety of head end cars with a combine for passengers, and a coach to be added during the summer. Thanks for the great pics, folks. Frank

[Frank Campagna]

Just a note. The dining car usually separated the sleepers/first class from the coaches. Some express cars were set out by the engines enroute. These would be up front behind the power.

The Erie/EL had the longest NY-Chicago route. So they didn't get a lot of through passengers. I understand Santa Fe, however, liked them for a connection east, as they were very reliable at schedule keeping. Frank

[Dave Jones]

I'm also working on a late 50's/early 60's passenger accomodation. While the main interest will be a main line loop representing a freight only mainline (since '54), have worked in a point-to-point branchline (~
1/4 scale mile), and it may/probably will have passenger service.

The passenger service as envisaged will "back down" to its terminal and be very heavy on head-end cars with only a combine and/or coach for passengers. Over the years have accumulated a lot of express cars and no need to let them go to waste.

[firechief]

This won't help your older era layout, but just for information, ViaRail currently runs sleeper(s), diner/lounge combine, coach(es), on runs that are overnight.

Dave.

[SecretWeapon]

Mr. X,
EL didn't have PB-1's or E-8 B's either. The only "B" unit were FT's F-3's & F-7's.