NYC Quiz of the day

[fitz]

What's different about this Niagara from all the others that the NYC ran? I know Roger and Ron know the answer. How about some of you other NYC fans? The photo is from the collection of Harold K. Vollrath. http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/5500.jpg

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyc1.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[rhensley@anderson.cioe.co]

No, I won't tell, but isn't she a beautiful beast?


Roger

Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com
== http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ ==
== Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) ==
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/image/tgang_sm.gif

[hudsonut1]

ditto

However I do have a real question (with no answer forth coming from me).What is/was the purpose of the small hole in the smoke deflector's (of most) of the Mohawks?
Roger..do you feel a little like Rudolph..not being able to play in the reindeer games?
Ron

[watash]

I'll bet its Alco's #800. http://www.trainboard.com/biggrin.gif

------------------
Watash #982 http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/092.gif

[wt&c]

the headlight is incorrect I think am i right?? http://www.trainboard.com/biggrin.gif

------------------
TrainBoard.com MEMBER#204
THE WEB PAGE IS NOW UPDATED!!
Appalachian & Atlantic Model Railroad (http://www.a&a.77th.com)
http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/6/3/8/17992638.jpg


"QUALITY at WORK with SAFTEY in MIND"

[fitz]

Wow! We'll have to do this more often. Thanks for the responses. No, it's not the 800, built in 1931 whereas these Niagaras were built in 1945-46. No, the headlight is correct. I have a photo of the 800 somewhere and will post it when I find it. Ron, what hole in the Mohawk smoke deflectors? I never noticed.

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyc1.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[fitz]

Watash, here's the 800. Builder's photo, again from Harold K. Vollrath's collection. She had 69" drivers as opposed to 75-79" on the Niagaras, plus had some of that scary 800psi steam piping on her. Also the third driver was the main driver, where the second was on the Niagaras.
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/800.jpg
Fitz

[This message has been edited by fitz (edited 16 January 2001).]

[eddelozier]

Were they experimenting with 'roller bearings' on the rods in place of solid brass. The picture seems to show it?

Just a guess.
...Eddie

------------------
Eddie Delozier
PRR N-scale
www.deloziers.com (http://www.deloziers.com)
eddelozier@yahoo.com

[E-8]

Very interesting! Thanks for the quiz!

[This message has been edited by E-8 (edited 16 January 2001).]

[fitz]

Eddie, nope. All of the Niagaras had roller bearings. Remember they were built in 1945-46. Guess we'll have to keep this going.
Fitz

[hudsonut1]

Comeon,Jim,givem my clue...
Ron

[fitz]

Ok, guys, Ron said that "It wasn't a very poppular engine with the crews". If that doesn't solve it, I don't know what will.
Fitz

[watash]

OH I know I know!

It had no running water in the toilet!

------------------
Watash #982 http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/092.gif

[rhensley@anderson.cioe.co]

No running water in the toilet? Well, it did have steam heat (chortle, chuckle, choke) and Fitz did give you a clue in his last message.

The answer is available on the web, but you have to search it out. (Oh, 'Good Grief'. This much be catching!)

Roger

Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com
== http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ ==
== Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) ==
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/image/tgang_sm.gif

[Harron]

Hmmm... Popular with the crews?? Must've had an enclosed cab then. That's my guess.

------------------
Corey Lynch
Pres - Rensselaer Model RR Society, NEB&W RR
http://www.rpi.edu/~lynchc/Railfanning/railfanning.htm - My Site
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ - NEB&W

[watash]

Looks like the engineer has the convertible top down. Its maybe the #1111 Alco experimental, or the #6001 (noting the odd steam piping over the cylinders) that had the regenerating steam super pressure super heating system. Could it be a Mohawk in disguise?? http://www.trainboard.com/biggrin.gif (tease, snicker)

------------------
Watash #982 http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/092.gif

[fitz]

Roger, yeah, you are getting into the spirit of things. Corey, go back and read that clue again along with the spelling. Watash, man you've got it, just look closer. I haven't had this much fun since we Popped some champagne on New Year's.

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyc1.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[watash]

I wont tell Fitz. By the way, Fitz, I'm also interested in John Deere tractors from driving then during harvest, they were very poppular where ever you could hear them, so I'm on your side, farmer! http://www.trainboard.com/tongue.gif

------------------
Watash #982 http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/092.gif

[eddelozier]

#5500
It was the only Niagara with
'Poppet Valves'

...Eddie

------------------
Eddie Delozier
PRR N-scale
www.deloziers.com (http://www.deloziers.com)
eddelozier@yahoo.com

[fitz]

Congratulations, Eddie. That's the answer. You can tell from (as Watash pointed out) the extra steam plumbing around the cylinders, lack of an eccentric rod to drive the valve, etc. She also had an air pump, visible in the photo, on the engineer's side, which the others did not. Does anyone have any good technical info on the poppet valve system? I know it was cam driven and contained a bunch of valves not unlike those in our automobile engines to admit and exhaust steam from the cylinders. New York Central numbered this engine 5500, called her class "S-2" to differentiate from the S-1's numbered 6000-6026. Shame there weren't more of them. Sure were great looking and great performing machines. Stand by for the next quiz.

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyc1.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[eddelozier]

Do you want a real technical explanation of the 'poppet value' ?

Try this site!
http://lmhibm5.epfl.ch/SiLMH/fidap8.5/examples/ex13.htm

Saw were the British used poppet values on their 1935 steam engines. US a few years behind.
....Eddie

------------------
Eddie Delozier
PRR N-scale
www.deloziers.com (http://www.deloziers.com)
eddelozier@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by eddelozier (edited 19 January 2001).]

[watash]

One of the beauties of a popet system was that it could turn higher rpm's with less vibration and was pressure lubricated. The lack of the eccentric mechanism looked cleaner. Setting the popeds, was a bear, but once they were tweeked in, it was said this engine could wind it up quicker and tighter than the standards. The expence of manufacture and tuning up, and maintainence, may have made them seem impractical. Could be. But you got to admit, "There is nothing like a Niagra"!

------------------
Watash #982 http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/092.gif

[fitz]

Eddie, that description of Poppet valves was too technical for me. I found an advertisement in an old Locomotive Cyclopedia run by Franklin, mentioning both "type A" and "type B" systems. I know I have seen a good set of drawings on such a system, but can't remember where. Watash, thanks for your insight, as always, and yeah, there's nothing like a Niagara.

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyclines.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[wt&c]

I got a model and a pic of #s 5016 & 5500 #5500 model has an eccentric rod. INACCURACY (unless 5550 had the "Poppet" added later)

------------------
TrainBoard.com MEMBER#204
THE WEB PAGE IS NOW UPDATED!!
Appalachian & Atlantic Model Railroad (http://www.a&a.77th.com)
http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/6/3/8/17992638.jpg


"QUALITY at WORK with SAFTEY in MIND"

[hudsonut1]

While on the subject of Niagara's.I still need some photos of the smoke stack/whistle area,from the top.
I am redetailing a nice old Kemtron,yes Kemtron ,O Scale model.I have some photos but I need some more.Yes I have tried the importers and have had mixed results with them and feel that someone out there has GOOD photos.
How do I know that I have a Kemtron you ask?
My #8 All Nation catalog has a photo of same and the engine has the same detail problems mine has.
You say All Nation?Yes. At one time AN carried products from other sources as well as there own and they also had one of the largest hobby shops in the country in Chigcao.
A later Kemtron catalog show a Niagara with more detail.Ummm maybe I have the pilot model......
Ron Morse

[fitz]

Ron, you must be the expert on NYC O gauge modelling. I don't even know about those companies, mainly because I have been out of modelling for some 45 years.
WT&C, I assume that was 6016 and 5500. 5500 was purpose-built with poppet valve system so the model photo is inaccurate, as you said. Several railroads experimented with poppet valves, and I'm sure if the diesels hadn't displaced steam, that would be the way the steamers would be built.

------------------
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/nyclines.gif
http://www.trainboard.com/smiles/096.gif Member No. 508

[wt&c]

let mee look here at my models:.....Hmmmm.
#5500 No poppet valves (I have something to do now!! http://www.trainboard.com/biggrin.gif )

#5016 That the way it is, or Bachmann's version http://www.trainboard.com/frown.gif well that's another thing to do today, renumbering. !! http://www.trainboard.com/biggrin.gif

------------------
TrainBoard.com MEMBER#204
N.A.R.A. Member #8
THE WEB PAGE IS NOW UPDATED!!
Appalachian & Atlantic Model Railroad (http://www.a&a.77th.com)
http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/6/3/8/17992638.jpg


"QUALITY at WORK with SAFTEY in MIND"

[Hudson5432]

Some errors have crept into these postings-possibly because most of us use the "hunt and peck" method of typing?
There was only one poppet valve Niagara-it was road no. 5500.
The standard S-1b Niagaras were nos. 6001-6025.
There was only one S-1a Niagara-it was No. 6000.
The #5500 had type A1 poppet valves, and the valves were actuated by a sealed and oil bath cam box that was located on the front pilot deck (This required moving the air pumps to immediately below a raised running board on the fireman's side of the engine).
With the use of poppets, total engine weight increased from the 471,000 lb (engine only-less tender) of the standard Niagaras, to 485,000 lb.
The 5500 threw its rods at least two times when in service-once along the station platform at Dunkirk, NY after descending the long and gradual grade westbound out of Buffalo at high speed. (The reason for the thrown rods was that the spun brass collars in the Timken rod assemblies were worn as a result of running with no clearance steam in the cylinders at each end of the piston travel to "cushion" the piston before it reversed its direction. The "drift" setting of the poppets caused this problem and it was disabled and the engine ran fine.
The engine had "only" 5000 drawbar HP and could not equal the performance of the standard piston valve Niagaras when tested, although it had 15% lower fuel and water consumption. A review of the cylinder bed casting showed that 5500 inlet port would only flow 100,000 lb. of steam per hour, as opposed to the 135,000 lb./hour capability of the standard piston valve engines.

[fitz]

Tom, thanks for correcting us. I know I get sloppy typing. Added a non-existant serial no. (6026) to the list. Now, I am very interested in the fact that 5500 weighed more. Did the poppet valve system weigh that much that it offset the removal of the eccentric rods and Baker gear hangers? The 5500 had air pumps on both the engineer's and fireman's sides. :confused:

[Hudson5432]

Fitz,
I do not know what the actual weight difference of the poppet valve system was, just that the total engine weight went from 471k to 485k. Obviously, there was the difference in the engine bed casting in the cylinder area and this may have been a weight increase or a decrease....I seem to remember reading in Vern Smith's book "One Man's Locomotives" that the cam gear box on the PRR 4-4-4-4's weighed about 3800 lb. so this may give some idea of a major weight item (although I am not sure that the box was the same on the #5500). The advantage to the poppets was that the weight did not move, by revolving as Baker valve gear did, so the engine was probably easier to balance and better on the track. (It is true that the valves themselves moved like the valves in an automobile ie they reciprocated. However, they were much lighter in weight than the spool valve of the Baker valve gear.)