niagara

[hudsonut1]

Hi Guys
I don't know for sure if I asked this question on this forum,if so,sorry for the repeat.Seems I ask everyone and so far no luck.
I NEED a photo of the top of a Niagara that shows the detail around the smokbox top/stack/feedwater heater/whistle area.
I am re-detailing an older O scale model and want to know where everything in supposed to go.I have some shots but I know that have seen just the photo that I need but can not now find it.....
Thanks
Ron :confused:

[ten87]

What I had posted here was a temporary lapse in my sense of decorum. I'm sorry if it offended anyone. I'll save my sophomoric behavior for an appropriate time and place.

[ 23 April 2001: Message edited by: ten87 ]

[CPRailfan]

I don't even know what a niagra is smile.gif I'll leave this steam locomotive stuff to you guys smile.gif

[ 24 April 2001: Message edited by: CPRailfan ]

[watash]

Yeah Fritz, you are right, we were having an agedly challenged moment. I have not seen but one top view of any steamer except one shot in a movie taken from an overpass as the engine passed beneith.

[ 24 April 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

[fitz]

As the moderator of this board, just getting home from riding behind the SP&S 4-8-4 700 for two days, I see this kind of stuff on this forum, and thank you all for correcting it. Good on all of you! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

[ 29 April 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

[ten87]

It's my understanding that Alco built 25 of the 4-8-4's for NYC. I'm not sure what the exact differences were between their other 4-8-4 locomtotives and the Niagras, but I found this link (http://www.4dintsys.com/jmw/rr/schnz484.html) with some photos.

[hudsonut1]

Jim
Thanks for the comments.I was about to do the same.I sure don't need a responce to a question in that manner
Hope your tip was at least Fun...
That link to 4-8-4s was interesting but didn't do the trick. But thanks for the thought.
Ron
:(

[fitz]

Ron, I have never seen a photo of the Niagara top. Hudson, yes, taken at a coal dock. They did a pretty good job of hiding whatever plumbing was exposed around the stack and smokebox.
Ed, this photo is for you. The REAL 4-8-4.
http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/6000.jpg

[Hudson5432]

Here are some "differences" between New York Central Niagaras and any other 4-8-4 you can identify:
1) Highest boiler HP ever measured on a two cylinder steam locomotive (6680 at 85 mph)
2) Highest drawbar HP ever measured on a two cylindered steam locomotive - 5070 at 63 mph. (Note N&W J fans repeat an error, claiming 5100 DBHP at 40 mph. Per Pond of the N&W, in a Railway Mechanical Engineer article dated May, 1946, the actual measured was 5040 DBHP with 300 lb. steam pressure, making the Niagara #1).
3) Highest monthly mileage of any steam locomotive in the world, over 26,000 miles per month. As a class of 26 engines on varying schedules, they exceeded 16,000 miles per month per engine during their first two years.
4) Highest availability of any steam locomotive in the world, exceeded 85%
5) Highest utilization (ie amount of time available) of any steam locomotive in the world, exceeding 65%
6)Highest tender coal capacity of any locomotive in the world, 46 tons.
7) Only two cylinder steam locomotive capable of over 4000 drawbar HP at 100 mph.
8) Highest power to weight ratio of any U.S. steam locomotive.
And the descriptive statistics above do not do them justice, especially seeing one perform! In daily service they ran between 90-100 mph (when the NYC speed limit was 90), and could take 15 air conditioned cars over 100 mph.

[fitz]

Tom, thanks for that reply, which says more than I could ever contribute to the outstanding performance of that great engine.

Now, if you have a photograph taken from above, we could answer Ron's question. (Partly in jest.) ;)

[rhensley_anderson]

Tom,

Can I have permission to use your Niagra stats in an issue of the CID, NMRA Rusty Spike? I may not use it, but it is great prototype filler material for the Central fans here in central Indiana if I do.

Roger

Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com
== http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ ==
== Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) ==
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/image/tgang_sm.gif

[Hudson5432]

Roger,
Please feel free to use this info. It is fully documented in NYC literature and a road test report.
This info was included in two articles I wrote on Niagaras several years ago for the NYC Historical Society. Anyone with any interest at all in NYC should join us! We would be pleased to have you as a member.
Address is:
NYCSHS
PO Box 81184
Cleveland, Ohio 44181-0184
Annual dues is $30.00 per year and includes four issues of "The Headlight" magazine, including info for modelers, RR operation, steam, diesel, and electric, etc.

[hudsonut1]

Good greif..this thread sure got unraveled...nothing there has any thing to do with my question.....THANKS GUYS......

KIDDING.........


Top views of engines are hard to come by and I have seen some including the one that I want (and need) ,IS out there I just can't re-find it.
I may have enough now to piece it together.
Thanks
Ron
smile.gif smile.gif

[watash]

Hudsonut, try:
modelrailroader.net
bullsheet.com
alltrains.com
railsusa.com
dnaco.net/~gelwood/new27-02sept.html (many photos of 4-8-4 NYC)
archive.trainpix.com
transalert.com (RR ref. books)
northeast.railfan.net
rush2ny@aol.com Photos $$
railroad.net/baldwin
trainpage.com

All are the only sources I know that might have the view you seek. I went to sleep searching the Dnaco site NYC photos, they must have hundreds.

[Hytec]

Ron, I felt that I had to show that someone actually read your original post and request :D

The following image shows 6000 from a 3/4 upper front angle.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1587009&a=12714131&p=47260814


The original of the image is in Kalmbach's Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia, Volume 1, page 230. The image was printed weakly, and the original photo may have been overexposed. I tried to enhance the contrast and the brightness to highlight the top plumbing, but .... redface.gif

I think I remember someone posting a "where is this" a short while back with a photo that showed a Niagara side from an upper angle :confused:

Hank

[ 25 April 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]

[hudsonut1]

Thanks guys!!
I have seen most of what you have mentioned and I'll check out the rest.
My guess is that most of the brass importers are just guessing because they tell me that they don't have anything,except PSC who sent me two photos that "nearly" shows everything.
I'm not trying to do a contest model with ALL of the nuts and bolts,I just want to make my old one look better.
Thanks again
Ron smile.gif

[Hudson5432]

Ron,
I read your request, but have no image in mind for the top smokebox view of a 6000. I have the Kalmbach book, and of course the Headlight that shows 6002 on its side. I have a PSC O scale model, but am not sure it is correct as I have never seen a drawing of this area. The "Rails to Pittsburgh" book has some overhead views. If you are one of the legendary O scale 10 amp "rivet counters", then noen of this will be acceptable documentation for you. I have never seen a photo on the web of a top view of a 6000, and all my negs are really 3/4 roster shots... If you do locate such a view, I would also be interested in seeing it!
Regards,
Tom Gerbracht
PS Sorry about the thread...got carried away by smoke deflectors...

[fitz]

You guys all make me very happy with the correspondence on this subject. Tom, I LOVED that last comment about the smoke deflectors. I just can't resist this, and put a photo up for what my wife and I were part of last weekend. No smoke deflectors, lots of steam pressure (note the safeties popped) and a thoroughly enjoyable experience. The Spokane, Portland and Seattle 700. I just wish it could have been a Niagara. Photo by Martin E. Hansen. http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/SP&S700.3.JPG

[ 25 April 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

[ 25 April 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

[hudsonut1]

Ah...Jim...that aint no Niagara...pretty as it is....
Hi to you wife..she is indeed brave to put up with the likes of you.. smile.gif
No Tom ,I'm not a rivit counter, but as I said I just want it to look better than it does and I don't want to make it worse by putting the piping in the wrong spot. Your PSC model is most likely pretty close as they are the only ones to send me anything close to what I need. I have a bunch of PSC parts to add to the engine as well.
I have know and worked with Dave Bush for many years ,I know that he does care that his models are as close as can be with the information that is avaiable.
Thanks
Ron smile.gif

[Hudson5432]

Ron,
I do not have a digital camera, or I could photograph and post the top of my PSC. My guess is that the info you received from PSC is better than anything I could do here.

Fitz-I envy you, living in an area where you can ride big steam. There is nothing in the east like it at this time. I know Doyle McCormack (met him when we did NKP 759), and he and his crew have done a terrific job on SP&S 700. I was really impressed by the Web page of this organization! (I don't know how to include live links on this page, perhaps you could assist?)
Anyway, while I also like SP GS4 #4449, I am most interested in the SP&S engine, and its terrific performance.

[fitz]

Tom, do you have an existing photo of the top of the Niagara model that you can attach to an email and send me? If so I can then publish it, or just send it direct to Ron.
Yes, we are lucky this year in the west, as far as steam goes. The 4449 will be out on BNSF tracks May 26-27, running up the Columbia River gorge to Pasco, on to Yakima, overnight, then over Stampede Pass and return to Portland. We rode this same trip behind 4449 a few years ago and it was fantastic. Incredible scenery. Tentatively she will also run day trips June 2-3, round trips Vancouver, WA to Wishram, in the gorge.
Link to 700 site: All Aboard the SP&S 700 (http://www.sps700.org/)
Link to 4449 site:Friends of the 4449 (http://www.4449.com/)
Y'All can look at MY site, link is part of my signature and see highlights of all of these trips and more. In case you haven't noticed, I LOVE steam. :D :rolleyes: smile.gif

[Hudson5432]

Fitz,
I do not own a digital camera...still a Nikon guy using Kodachrome 25....so I cannot respond to your request for a digital image. (A digital camera is in my future...but I think they have to get to 6-10 megapixels before I would be interested.)
I have been reading about the "high resolution" of the 3.34's, but K25 will resolve the equivalent of about 35 million pixels. (The Kodak engineer I talked to a few years ago thought that this would not occur "in his lifetime.")
Anyway, it appears that Ron received some info from Precision Scale, who made my engine.

[fitz]

Tom, I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that call. I guess that means you don't have a scanner either. Some (most) photo shops will scan your photos (And in my opinion you CAN'T BEAT a Nikon and K25) and put them on a 3 1/2 inch floppy for you. That way you can send them out on the net as attachments to email, etc.
I am just about to start your great looking article on Mohawks in the Headlight. If you are running out of NYC wheel arrangements to write about, just start over again. There are whole new generations out there just getting around to appreciate what used to be. :D

[Hudson5432]

Fitz,
I don't have a scanner either! They are very inexpensive, but my quality standards are high (I think), so am waiting.
I should tell you that about two years ago I arranged with a Professional Photo Lab in Cleveland to scan my 900 oldest color slides (Steam) on 8 Kodak Photo CD's, with resolutions up to 2048X3096 pixels. The slides had started to fade, so I thought it prudent to do so. I also have the "full house" Adobe Photoshop and am "tinkering" with these images.
My youngest son will be home from college next week, and I might try some attachments using the "snapshot" Fuji-1300 digital camera we purchased for him.

[Hudson5432]

Fitz,
Forgot to thank you for the kind words re the Mohawk article in the Headlight. L-4's will follow as a "second section".....
I don't know about "starting over" with wheel arrangements...a lot of those younger readers are "diesel guys" (including my son Steve...!)

[fitz]

Tom, I have finished the first installment of Mohawks. Wonderful stuff. How I wish I had something to do with all of that. Airplanes were "my bag." Having done the flight test routine, I would really have enjoyed being part of a NYC test crew out on the line with a new loco, intstrumented to prove performance. smile.gif :D :cool:

[NYCentral]

You can find some top 3/4 views in Stauffer's "NYC Steam Power Volume 1". They are not quite what you are looking for, but you can deternmine angle and length of the plumbing. Hope it helps.

[hudsonut1]

To NYCentral
Thanks.
I have, as far as I know ,ALL of the NYC books that deal with steam.There are a few photos in some of them but none of them show every thing I need to know,but all together I believe I have enough to do the job.
The thing that has been nagging at me for all this time is the ONE photo that I know I have seen from the top,head on almost straight overhead as if shot from a bridge or signal bridge,that is the ONE I am looking for (if for no other reason then to prove to ME that I saw it!!!!!)
Thanks again for everyone's in put on this.
Ron :D smile.gif :eek:

[Hudson5432]

Ron,
Oh, so that's the photo you need!!!??
Look in Staufer's "Later Power" book....That's where it is-on page 263 (assuming its the one I also refer to.....)
I believe it was taken from a bridge and enlarged slightly, note the "tell-tales" and the image foreshortening.
TRG
PS. I don't think it shows enough detail to help you?! (But it sure shows the size of the boiler on those monsters!)

[hudsonut1]

Thanks TRG
Your right about the size of that boiler and that the photo doesn't help much. IF I ever find the picture I'll let the world know about it !!
Thanks again
Ron smile.gif smile.gif

[Lindalace9]

To CPRailfan........poor you! If you've never stood on a platform and watched a steam engine rumble into the station, with bell ringing, ground shaking, steam belching and hissing...they seemed to actually be alive.....and they had a whistle, not a horn.

[fitz]

Lindalace, welcome to the New York Central Forum. All I can say is "amen." Nothing like those living, breathing beasts.
smile.gif

[hudsonut1]

Lindalace9
Nigaras were some of the few steam locos that indeed DID have a horn. :D

[Lindalace9]

Hudsonut.... Is that a fact? I recall the steam locomotives very well but I admit that at that time they all looked the same to me.
The exception was that those on the LIRR
were obviously smaller. Tell me, what were
Niagras used for? Did they replace the Hudson?

[ 23 May 2001: Message edited by: Lindalace9 ]

[fitz]

Actually, like many of the later steam engines, Niagaras had BOTH whistle and horn. They didn't exactly replace the Hudsons, as the Central only had 26 Niagaras, and 275 Hudsons. They did take over most of the name varnish and were seldom seen in freight service. They were of course larger, and more powerful than Hudsons. See Hudson5432's post on the first page of this thread about the power developed. Never matched by any other 4-8-4. smile.gif :D ;)

[Lindalace9]

Hi guys, One of the very romantic things in
railroading was the competition between the
Pennsylvania RR's "Broadway Ltd" and the
NYC's "20th Century Ltd". as they raced from New York to Chicago. Am I correct that the NYC put Niagaras on this train? What type locomotive did the Pennsylvania RR use on the "Broadway Ltd."? Ohhhhh.....how I would love to have sat in the club car....
socializing.....Martini in hand.....

[ 24 May 2001: Message edited by: Lindalace9 ]

[fitz]

"Romantic" is a term I never heard used when discussions of the NYC-PRR 20th Century-Broadway Ltd. rivalry occurred. "War" would be more appropriate. Yes, Niagaras hauled the Century. Pennsy used their K-4s Pacifics but I don't know what later power they used (Most NYC fans wouldn't care). Yeah, it sure would be great to be able to go back to the days of club cars. I'd have a Manhattan. :D

[Lindalace9]

Up....? or on the rocks....? I'll have mine
straight up with 3 olives, please. I'll bet the ride was so smooth that I wouldn't spill a drop. And there's no need to specify a
brand of liquor......they only serve from the top shelf. It's true that the competition was
more than keen. It's romantic for us to
think back on those times, however.
Ahhhhhh.....here's your Manhattan now. Sit back in that swivel chair and relax......listen to that whistle.
Isn't this better than being crammed in the middle seat of an airliner?

[watash]

Down with Airliners! Give me the full meal in the dining car and let me relax in the parlor car for the trip. I'm with you guys! I'll have mine any way I can get it as long as its two hands! :D

[Lindalace9]

Hi Watash, What is the difference between parlor car and club car.....or is
there any difference? I've never actually been on board. I've just seen them in the movies......stuffed chairs with a small bar
at one end.....the way to go.

[watash]

Parlor Cars were years and years and years before your time Linda! You kids missed out on that ornate Victorian Era when the "Varnish" ruled the Mainlines. The last car on a passenger had a rear door that opened onto an open vestibule, a back porch, complete with an iron fence with three gates. You could sit out there in folding chairs. Inside the car was BUT PLUSH, all wine colored deep pile velvet and gold brochade with goldleaf bevelled mirrors and rolled and pleated leather wing chairs each with its own foot stool. Even the rockers had foot stools. Polished brass spittoons (Cuspidors) were always within easy reach. Some had small roometes, baths/toilet, and a barber on board. Real Ladies were discouraged from entering. In fact, curtains covered the vestibule doors to prevent wives, snoops, buisy bodies and police, from peering inside, because there was occasionally a person who could get on board at some small town and then suddenly de-train at the next small town a little wealthier than before! The kerosene lamps that swung from big hooks in the ceiling were turned low at night. There were many big business deals made in the parlor cars of the day, and quite a bit of skull duggery by the ruffians, despots, and villians who occasionally lurked in the shadows! The liquor was usually in your own coat pocket, although there were a few cars outfitted with a small bar of sorts in the waning years. Those are the choice cars people want for private cars to own today.

Club cars are from the modern era. The Streamliners had the last car on a passenger train enclosed, usually with a bullet nosed end design. Windows went all around, a full wet bar was a permanent design, and the atmosphere was one of bright carefree luxury. Sandwitches could be had along with soft drinks, and whole families could stay awhile. Ladies were welcome, gentlemen were welcome. Any oassenger who became unruly in a railroad club car quickly found himself handcuffed to a pole standing in the baggage car until he was handed over to the police at the next town. If he was too hard to handle, he was simply thrown off the train as soon as it could get stopped, no matter where they were. There was a rear door that could be opened with a key, but that was not for passengers. The passengers could only use the "train" end doorway. Normally this door would not even be noticed, so well was it blended into the interior design. It could be used for emergency exit if needed, but was occasionally used when a private car was tacked on the rear. This door was also used by the cleaning crew between runs. That was a whole tale alone, started by Mr. Pullman. :D

[Lindalace9]

Thanks Watash.......it is the club car that I had in mind. My rail-riding experiences
have always been in coaches.....the latest
being a trip from New York to Greensboro, NC.
on Amtrak.

[Lindalace9]

I recall that my brother had a Lionel trainset with 3 passenger cars, one of which
was a parlor car. The engine was the electric type used by The New Haven RR and everything was painted a light green and
pale yellow.

[fitz]

We can still experience the parlor/club car world today, if we pick the right excursions to ride. My wife and I were fortunate to be residents of the "Dover Harbor", a 1923 heavyweight, during the 1993 New River Gorge excursion. It was a Pullman, originally assigned to the NYC, had a few bedrooms, and in '93 was configured more as a parlor car with plush furniture, lots of room (no airliner, Lindalace9 and Watash), great car hosts. Rode like a dream on those six wheel trucks. :cool:

[hudsonut1]

..........and all this has what to do with Niagaras??????????????????????? :confused:

[Lindalace9]

Well dear.......as was pointed out.....they
were pulled by Niagaras.....the club cars at least. Let me repeat...very romantic! smile.gif