NEW YOK CENTRAL DIESELS LEFT OUT THERE?

[Johnny Trains]

Are there any units left over from the NYC that may still be on CSX or NS rosters?
Just curious.

[fitz]

Wish I could help you there, my friend, but my knowledge is limited to steam on the NYC. George Elwood's site, or Canada Southern, might offer some help. I don't know the lineage of the ones that (MARC?) has painted as NYC E-8s. There have to be some survivors even if Perlman hammered all the steamers into nails. :eek:

[Johnny Trains]

I'm not sure that a Class 1 RR would have anything that old, but with the demise of Conrail, maybe there was something old, something borrowed and something blue passed along!

[Johnny Trains]

Oh, I was just interested in any Class 1's that might still have something from the Central. I'm sure shortlines may have one or two oldies.

[Johnny Trains]

Thanks Martyn!
Which museum in Pa. was that?
I can't remember seeing those in any of the ones I've been to.
My question was out of curiosity because I've seen some really old diesels still out there. Last year in Meyersdale, Pa. I saw some U23-b's along CSX and just a couple of years back I believe I've seen GP30's or such on NS in Marion, Oh.
The Amtrak yard in Sunnyside, Queens has a couple of old switchers floating around there. Amtrak is a Class 1 (Hmmmm. Passenger line a Class 1? Is that so?) railroad.
Even something from Penn Central would be ok.
I grew up watching the NYC yard right down the street from me on the Upper Westside of Manhattan.
I have great fond memories of those days......... smile.gif

[Martyn Read]

Aww, finding ex PC loco's is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, assuming you miss all of the dash 9's......

:D

PC built up a *massive* fleet of GP38 - GP40 and then GP38-2's, all of which went back to the lessor when their 15 years were up. These were then re-leased out to other roads, ones I know of for sure are DRGW (GP40) BN - still working for BNSF (GP38, they call them GP38x) MKT, UP, and they also made up a big chunk of the EMD lease fleet, there are bound to be more out there, I can try & point you in the direction of some pics if it helps.

The museum those pics were tken at is at the former NYC depot at Northeast PA, on lake Erie, the Buffalo-Cleveland lines of CSX and NS run past it, they also have some other cool bits (south shore little joe! :cool: ) & pieces. Definately worth a couple of hours if you're passing that way. Here's a pic of the depot itself.

EDITED - Picture was on Photopoint - Sorry... :(

All the best.

[ 16. September 2002, 07:03: Message edited by: Martyn Read ]

[Johnny Trains]

Thanks again!
I guess being a railfan is still loving the roads that nearly killed the industry!
I wish more manufactuers did more in PC schemes. It's a forgotten road.

[rhensley_anderson]

At the Whitewater Valley Railroad rail museum in Connersville Indiana, they have an alco S-1 painted as NYC 9339. No, this wasn’t a Central engine, but it shor do look good. :)

http://cid.railfan.net/meet/nyc9339a.jpg

[Johnny Trains]

I"ve been there!
Thanks!
Cool shot!

[Fred]

The NYC had quite a few GP-38's and GP40's, my guess is that if any NYC engs are still in service on the CSXT that they would be either of these type.

[ConrailHaulic]

CR retired all its GP40's years before the CSX/NS split, its highly likely however that some former NYC GP40 could be on Gulford (not in NYC paint) as Gulford bought the vast majority of former CR GP40's

NYC never owned any GP38's, these came during Penn Central, some of the PC GP38 exsist on NS, but CSX got rid of there GP38's last year.

[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: Chessie SD50 8563 ]</p>

[Hytec]

What about the Mexican railways? I've heard there are some "Steel Fleet" cars still running down there? If so, there might also be some early NYC power still running :confused:

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>

[Martyn Read]

A modelling project I want to do at some point is an early Conrail rusty GP38 or GP38-2 in PC black with CR initials, rust, on a patchwork of the original black paint, with rust, plus some badly painted glossy patches with white worms showing through, oh, and did I mention some rust :D

Maybe in an alternative universe deregulation would have happenned early enough to give PC the same breaks as Conrail got, and you'd have had PC-Quality painted diesels running round :cool:

Can anyone give us a quick rundown of what NYC had pre-Penn Central & I'll have a trawl through some sites for likely survivors?

All the best smile.gif

[Martyn Read]

Did a quick net trawl & found a handful:

From a MARC site at HERE (http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp/MARC/marc_loc.html)
NYC 3051, PC 3051, CR 3051, MARC 32, MARC 69
(Now a GP40WH-2) Remanufactured from GP40s by M-K, Boise, ID, in 1994-95. Units have a stretched GP40 frame with 3000HP EMD 645E engine, Cummins HEP generator, F45-style widecab, SD45-style long hood with flared radiators.
NYC 3062, PC 3062, CR 3062, MARC 70
NYC 3066, PC 3066, CR 3066, MARC 71
(Now GP39H-2) Remanufactured from GP40s by M-K, Boise, ID, in 1988-89. Units are on standard GP40 frame with 2300HP 12-cylinder EMD 645E engine, Cummins HEP generator, standard GP40 carbody.

From a CP Rail roster site HERE (http://www.trainweb.org/galt-stn/cproster/current.htm)

SOO 4200-04 EMD/CP GP9R
Formerly CR/PC 7355,7393,7320,7349,7405
Formerly NYC 5955,5993,5920,5949,6005

NYC Lives, kind of :D

[Johnny Trains]

Martyn, did you say rust?
There's a RUST ST. in Brooklyn.
I suspected there were some NYC leftovers out there.
Thanks for all the info guys! :D
(I would imagine thet NS doesn't have much money to buy new.......)

(Actually, I'm doing a Bronx/New Haven RR type thing. A bit of modeler's licensing there. Just like city scenes. Have a lot of New York City related vehicles to go with the scene).

[Martyn Read]

Had you heard about Bachmann doing an E33 electric? (HO scale, VGN/N&W/NH/PC/CR) I have to say I'm kinda tempted myself :D Maybe mix in a PC black GG1 for a bit of variety.

Does anyone know if the IHC GG1 is any good? smile.gif

[F7ph2]

The Adirondack RR out of Utica NY has a privately owned RS3 ptd. NYC 8223 used in tourist service. For more info on it's bckgrd, you might try www.adirondackrr.com. (http://www.adirondackrr.com.) Maybe someone there can supply the details.
Don

[esprrfan]

As of this am Union Pacific has

9975 Ex NYC 3031 @ Proviso
9979 Ex NYC 3010 @ Janesville, Wi
9980 Ex NYC 3012 @ Concil Bluff Ia, stored/retired
638 Ex NYC 3017 @ Alamosa Co

D. Simmons

[fitz]

Wow, I go away for a few days and you guys are burning up the net. Good thread--keep it up. I may even learn something about diesels.

[Johnny Trains]

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THERE WERE THAT MANY OUT THERE!
I'M IMPRESSED THE UP STILL HAS SOME!
COOL.

[Lindalace9]

Hi everyone,

You people are amazing! You seem to know
all there is to know about each type of diesel.
As far as I'm concerned they are all UGLY. They should be kept in the yard where most people can't see them. But I have enjoyed all the comments.
I like the old E and F series and The
Burlington Zephyr.

Linda

[Big Al]

Metro North still has 2 former NYC GP units in service. MN numbers are 543(GP8) and 750(GP9), unsure of NYC #'s. 750 even still has a working steam generator.

[Johnny Trains]

Linda, when someone tells me they don't like diesels, I always sing this little Jimmy Rodgers ditty to them:

LOOKIE O'VER YONDER
COMIN' DOWN THAT RAILROAD TRACK.........
LOOKIE O'VER YONDER!
COMIN' DOWN THAT RAILROAD TRACK!
SEE THE BLACK SMOKE ROLLIN'.......
ROLLIN' FROM THAT OLE SMOKE STACK..............


JIMMIE RODGERS
THE SINGING BRAKEMAN

smile.gif

[Martyn Read]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
SEE THE BLACK SMOKE ROLLIN'.......
ROLLIN' FROM THAT OLE SMOKE STACK..............
<hr></blockquote>

Hmmmm, Must be an Alco diesel then :D

I have to admit that I'm an internal combustion kind of guy, steam is okay, but I just can't get excited over a preserved & polished steamer. Working steam (and I don't mean excursions or tourist lines) is a whole different kettle-o-fish. smile.gif

[Johnny Trains]

Steam fans vs. Diesel fans remind me of Yankee fans vs. Mets fans! smile.gif

I like any loco there is.
Steam, diesel, electric, as long as it's pulling a train!

But for modeling purposes, I go with diesels because anything from state-of-the-art to an almost first generation switcher can be found operating somewhere in the USA. (Or other countries).

Steam is great but restricts you to a certain era.
My Ford Crown Vic NYPD cars (in white and old blue paint scheme) somehow would look wierd next to a Boston and Albany Berk or whatever!

I'm addicted to all those beautiful HO scale vehicles out there. Wish I room just for parking lots! The more trucks the better too!
Keep 'em coming!

[Johnny Trains]

This is an interesting link to what's left of the old New York Central piers in my neigborhood.
The neighborhood hoodlums burned them down a long time ago. Luckily I was able to explore all of them before they started that.
I have no idea when they where last used for the carfloats. Maybe the late 60's.....?
The last train through the yard was around 1983.
From what I remember it was three boxcars of frozen turkeys for the (mostly gone) freezers down around the Meat District below 14th St. That train also used the old elevated Westside Freight Line below 34th St.......
I'll see if I can find the link to that too. That is extremely interesting.

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/wreck/wreckage.html

[Johnny Trains]

GREAT SHOT OF THE WESTSIDE FREIGHT LINE UNDER THE GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE.

http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nycrr/nycgwb.jpg

[watash]

Linda is my kind of gal! I don't cotton to them there painted mumblin' motor cars either. I like to see some moving parts! Diesels look more like a runaway than a train. :D

[Hytec]

Johnny, did you see the site about the completion of the West Side refurbishment in '34?

http://www.railroad.net/nyc/westside.html

It went right through the building where my Dad worked on Bethune Street.

By the way, nice photo of the RS-3 going under George and Martha. The freights were much more fun with S motors and the occasional T motor. Now all you see are P-40's and P-42's .... ugh!

[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>

[Johnny Trains]

Hank! Thanks so much for sending that site. I had it a few years ago and lost it. Couldn't find it last night after a brief search. Thanks!

So your Dad worked there! (Should I say "over" there?). Was he with Bell Labs? (Haven't checked the site to see what was on Bethune St). That is such a neat elevated line! I have walked it at least twice. Unfortunatly yet another part of the southern section has been torn down. It's almost impossible to get up there anymore and I doubt I would try. But what a strange world it is up there. The tracks and switches are still intact. A couple of the buildings that it used to pass through have sealed off the tracks. All those giant meat freezers with 3 foot thick walls, have been turned into condos!

I pass by the old line all the time. I wish I had seen it in action at least once............ :(

It's such a hidden relic. For those who don't know, it was built to get RR traffic off of the city streets. As late as the 30's, a flagman on horseback had to flag trains and traffic.
Incredible stuff.
Thanks again for finding that one! smile.gif

[Hytec]

Johnny, you say some tracks and switches still remain on parts of the system? Are any parts of the system still in use? If so, who owns it?

I can't imagine living in a Condo with 3 foot walls. It must be one of the most quiet places on earth. :cool:

Yes, my father worked for Bell Labs for over 40 years, 30 of them at the Bethune St facility. It was very exciting watching the trains from his window on the 6th floor. :eek:

[Johnny Trains]

WOW! Hank, I'll bet that was so cool to see the trains up on the line!!!!!
CSX owns it and refuses to pay to demolish it. (Est. cost two years ago: 10 MIL). Nothing has been up there for many years, but it really is interesting no one ever ripped out the tracks. They were still there a couple of years ago when I was up there. I'm sure they still are there on the remaining section.
As far as it's future........who knows........
There has been talk of making it into a pedestrian mall with small shops, making a new subway line down the Westside, and all other kinds of wierd stuff.
It isn't going anywhere yet, but the future looks dim. Developers are SCREAMING to tear it down.
Just about all the businesses under it are shabby garages, junk yards, private sanitation garages.......(I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!)
If it goes, so do all those places and big highrises will be lined up all along the old right of way.
Have you been away from NYC a long time? Did you know that the LIRR opened a big RR storage yard bet 10th and 12th aves about 10 years ago? It runs from 33rd to 29th.
I forget exactly how many tracks there are, but I'd say 40, and they are always filled with commuter trains.It was a simple solution to remedy deadheading all those trains in and out of Jamaica before and after the rush hours. I believe the yard was built on an old B&O yard.
Also, Amtrak runs all their Albany, Montreal, and Lakeshore Limited trains out of Penn Station and they use two remaining tacks up the old Westside freight line. I watched them rebuild those two tracks. It was great that someone had the sense to save that right-of-way. Because once you loose it, you can't get it back again.............
I hear them in my apt during the day and it makes me smile!
By the way, would you remember when two trains hit head-on around 158th st. maybe around 1964?
I was 6 or 7 then. My brother took me up there. it was incredible to see. We got within yards of one of the engines that had ended up over the retaining wall. And that is QUITE HIGH! I remember seeing a steam wrecker too. And the neighborhood people stealing shopping carts of brown paper grocery bags that had fallen out of a split open boxcar. That's a long time ago.

[Johnny Trains]

WOW! I sure hope you can open this!
This site is exactly the thing I was looking for!
Wait until you guys see the Westside Freight Line in this day and age! The tracks are still there!!!!! tongue.gif

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Tenth%20Ave%20trestle/Tenth.html

Now I'm wondering who owned that yard ay 30th st. I do think the B&O had something right there too. And maybe the Reading also had a small piece of something in Manhattan? Can anyone tell me about this

[Hytec]

Johnny, I haven't lived in the City since '55, but if memory serves me ... :confused:

1- I would guess that the LIRR storage yard is built on part (or all?) of the former NYC 11th Avenue Freight Yard property.

2- Neither the Reading nor the B&O ever owned tracks on Manhattan. The tracks were owned by the NYC (New York City & Hudson River, and New York & Harlem), the Pennsylvania, and the Long Island (owned by the Pennsy). The New Haven tracks ended at the NYC Harlem Divison flyover in Mount Vernon.

3- I think the B&O had trackage rights to the Hoboken docks, I don't know with which company.

4- I think Reading ran joint passenger trains into Newark, maybe with the B&O(?). All that ended shortly after WW-II.

Thanks for the link to the "Tenth Avenue Elevated". I haven't studied it yet, but it looks very interesting.

[Johnny Trains]

Hank, ya can run me over with a couple of Big Boys
if I haven't seen another RR's name on an old NYC City map right in the general area of the 11th ave yard. Maybe the B&O owned a building or pier here that was relative to their rights over in Hoboken. Maybe they ran ferries over to Manhattan? I know it was something small as it was small on the map. And they never ran into Manhattan. But I swear they were present here in some way shape or form. Maybe carfloat operations? Hmmmmmmmmm.
Hopefully someone can tell me that I'm not dreaming this up........
Could I have seen it on the History Channel in one of those old clips tken from a ship out on the river passing along that area?
:confused:

[Johnny Trains]

Hank, I did find one thing about the B&O that has nothing to do with the other topic.
And this is all that it said too. Can't find more info on this either.

THE B@O USED PENNSYLVANIA STATION FROM THE SPRING OF 1918 TO SEPTEMBER 1928.

Also, I think the B&O operated the freight yard over in Staten Island for some years.

[Hytec]

Johnny, I don't doubt for a moment that B&O may have owned or leased a building on Manhattan, with their logo painted on the side. It's likely that many "foreign" rail lines have maintained marketing and management offices on Manhattan over the years. For example, Conrail maintained marketing offices in New Orleans, LA during the 1970's, although probably they did not occupy an entire building with their logo painted on the side :D

I've had a chance to look at the "Forgotten NY" website link that you provided ... Man, that's Fantastic! :eek: There's a bunch of stuff around the City that I had totally forgotten about. Thanks

By the way what's happening with the 2nd Ave Subway tunnels? Will they ever be completed?

[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]</p>

[Johnny Trains]

Hi Hank, here's a link to what's left of the B&O yard at West 26th st in Manhattan!!!!!!!!
Glad my memory banks aren't that far gone yet!
I went into a B&O chat and someone sent this to me!


http://www.oldnyc.com/w26st_yards/w26st_yards/w26st_yards_1.html

The second ave tunnel is dead in the water. There's a tunnel that's just sitting there unfinished and totally unused.
I doubt it will ever be finished after what happened here in the City.

[Johnny Trains]

Hope you find this interesting too!

http://www.oldnyc.com/index.html

Oh, the was a Lehigh Valley and Pennsy yard too!
:eek:

[Hytec]

Johnny, thanks very much for all the information. I never knew so many "western" lines owned and operated tracks on Manhattan, and as late as the 60's. I didn't realize I was so ignorant redface.gif

OldNYC.com is a wonderful site, thanks for the link. Whoever runs it is doing a great job :cool:

Thanks again, Hank

[Johnny Trains]

I was surprised too to see that other railroads had their hands on Manhattan!
I have no idea who runs that Old New York site!
:confused:

[Lindalace9]

Johnny & Hank.....

What is now the Staten Island Transit was
originally owned by The B&O.

[Gary Pfeil]

Guys, The yard LIRR uses was the NYC 30th street yards, where all the reefers full of food were unloaded, amoung other things. The B&O, Erie, LV and others all had small yards to serve Manhatten via car float from NJ. By the way, the 30th street yard was where the elevated line started, by gaining height while running around the north, west and south sides of the yard.

Gary

[Johnny Trains]

Linda, I think someone else was in Staten Island running the freight, between the B&O and the SIRR's control. Just for a brief time.
It may have been the N&W in the late '70's or early 80's.
I've walked that abandoned line too!
Seeing all ths old stations was wierd!

[Lindalace9]

Johnny.......

The line I'm talking about is a 2 track
commuter line which ends at the ferry terminal.
There were no freight facilities on this line.

[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Lindalace9 ]</p>

[Johnny Trains]

Yes I know what you mean. But I think some freight was moved along there a long time ago, after the commuter trains "pulled out". There's a freight yard on the western end of the Island. It's still in use I believe. It connects to Bayonne I guess.
There was also the POUCH TERMINAL RR on Staten Island. I'm not sure where they ran. There's a Pouch industrial park or housing development there now. A friend at work knew the family. It's an almost unheard of RR anymore.

[Lindalace9]

There has never been any break in the commuter service on this line to my knowledge.
I believe it was called Staten Island Rapid Transit.......owned by B&O......then in the late 40's was taken over by the City when the New York City Transit Authority absorbed the IRT, BMT and
the IND.
Power is electric.......3rd rail. I can't imagine how freight would be handeled since
there are only 2 tracks and headway between trains
is only about 15 minutes......less in rush hour.....these trains are on a timetable that gets them into the St. George ferry terminal so that commuters can "Make" the boat in the morning, and the train is waiting for them in the evening when they get off the boat. But I could be mistaken.
In addition.......this line runs through
towns like New Dorp, Great Kills, Dongan Hills,
Annadale, Pleasant Plains and ends at Tottenville.
These are all bedroom communities. There is no
industry at all along this right of way.

This line runs along what is known on the Island as the South shore. Industry on Staten
Island is located on The North Shore, generally.
This is the area directly opposite Bayonne,
Elizabeth, Kearney and all those other smelly places.

[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Lindalace9 ]</p>

[Johnny Trains]

Oh oh! We're on opposite sides of the Mason-Dixon Line! LOL!
I'm talking about the North (shore) and you're talking about the South (shore)!
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what you meant.

Yes, I know about the line to Tottenville. I rode it back in '70-'71 for the first time. They were ancient trains back then. The motorman actually opened a sliding door to let this old lady on with her shopping cart! The doors must have been manually operated! Those cars had to have been from the 30's! They had real humming traction motors and were painted almost black.
The motorman was enclosed in a cab that wasn't closed at the top. I can still smell the orange he was eating Oh! There was the heavy garlic smell before that...........
I'll guess they were old BMT cars. Or maybe old EL cars?

About 20 years ago I rode it and the railroad was selling tickets just like the LIRR or Metro North does, and the conductor was collecting them!

I was confused and I was talking about the abandoned line on the Richmond Terrace side of Staten Island. There's an entire abandoned line that runs all the way to the other side of the Island. There are many abandoned platforms along the way. Some of the stations are up quite high too.
All the tracks are there although it is extremely overgrown. I stood over them on Morningside Ave about a year ago and saw some bad washouts below.
This was what I meant about the freight trains running along there after the commuter trains had gone. But they are long gone, after most of the heavy industry left the north shore.

There is an active call to rebuild the line for commuters again!


:D

[Johnny Trains]

Linda!
Check out this cool site! smile.gif
That old car is exactly what I rode on!!!!!!!!

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html

[Lindalace9]

How nostalgic! I love the old cars.
Now that you have brought the old North Shore
line to my attention I recall seeing many of the
old bridges and viaducts.
How could our progressive, modern, digital this and digital that society let these rail lines wither away? And then they have the gall to tell us to "take public transportation."

[Johnny Trains]

Linda, at $7 a pop to cross the Verrazano Bridge back into Brooklyn, it's worth the effort to take the Ferry (for free!) and ride mass transit both in the City and Staten Island. (Never mind traffic tieups).

Not that many people live along the North Shore as it still is a commercial area.
I guess back in the 50's the industry that supplied the riders on that line, started to fade fast. But now, there is a come-back for that area, especially since people are leaving Manhattan for the safety of Staten Island.........
All those old tug boat repair places, factories and docks will eventually become middle class to upper crust housing.
Staten Island will re-open that line in our lifetime.

That site is very cool! It has a lot of neat stuff about NYC!
And you're being from Queens, you must know of the abandoned line that runs to the Rockaways (? Isn't that where that old LIRR line runs to?) through places like Forest Hills.
That's another vital RR line that is still standing tall. I hope we see many many changes.
With all the crazy stuff going on here, we need to get more cars off of the road and more train lines running.

The Second Ave Subway was a bust. These lines EXIST RIGHT NOW! Fix 'em up!!!!!!!!!

What's your opinion on the Monorail from Jamacia to JFK? I think it's pretty cool, but a total waste. I doubt it will ever pay for itself.
I know I couldn't drag my suitcases to Penn Station, take the LIRR to Queens (or the subway either) and switch to the Monorail. I'd ride it once just to see what it is like, but not for actual traveling purposes.

Someone has to get with it and realize that this City is being overburdened by 4 wheeled vehicles.

"My" Congressman Jerry Nadler has been fighting for a new rail freight tunnel for years. It could eliminate tens of thousands of 18 wheelers a year.

Our bridges and tunnels are going to fall to pieces before much longer..............

[Lindalace9]

Hi Johnny,

There is an old abandoned LIRR line that
(I believe) turns south from the maunline in Forest Hills. I think it extended through St. Albans. The line that went to Rockaway was
given (Bought) to the NYC Transit Authority,
re-conditioned and became a branch of the
subway system.

I can't offer much of an opinion about the
monorail. I think monorails are wonderful and
I wish the City would make use of them. I think people would love safe, high speed service.
But I agree with you.......to schlep 2 heavy valises on the #2 train, change to LIRR at
Penn Station, then change again at Jamaica......
Worse.........suppose you're on the #5 train.
Now you must change at Grand Central to the
shuttle to Times Square...then get on the south-
bound 1 or 2 to Penn Sta. etc, etc...
Even worse.....suppose you have to travel at rush hour....well,......I guess it would be better to stay home.

[Johnny Trains]

Linda, my FAVORITE SUBWAY LINE (!!!!!) is the #7!
(LET'S GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I'd take the 1,9,2 or 3 to Times Square, change to the 7, and take that to B'way 74th to switch to the E to Jamaica and then ride the Monorail to wherever it leaves me at JFK, then probably board a bus....................... :eek:
Then after my back goes out from carrying my luggae, I'll just love standing in the airport for 3 more hours until I can get on my delayed plane! :rolleyes:
And all of this for a 2 hour domestic flight!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D
My next trip is going to be on Amtrak! (Or....yikes!.......I'll whisper this.........by C-A-R........................ :eek: