Questions for LEW

[fitz]

I know this question belongs on a Nickel Plate forum, but we don't have one. Reading Kevin Holland's book on Nickel Plate Berkshires, there is a chapter on Wheeling and Lake Erie Berks, and it says they did not have a feedwater heater. Can't find a feedwater pump on one anywhere in any pictures. I do see two "inverted funnels," both on the fireman's side, one ahead and one behind the trailing truck. Those funnels were usually part of injectors. I assume (should never do that) that they had two injectors. Do you know? I feel comfortable putting the question here since the NYC and NKP were in sight of each other on a lot of right of way.
Second question--The NYC Niagaras had such clean lines. Someone told me that the air tanks were somewhere in the engine frame. Where were the air horn and whistle mounted? They are not visible in any photos I have seen. Thanks. graemlins/confused.gif graemlins/confused.gif

[fitz]

Well, this is embarrassing. Asked the airhorn question on another site and a guy referred me to my own site, photo of 6017 which clearly shows the horn just forward of the cab, engineer's side, right by the handrail. I have other shots where no horn is visible. Was it an add-on? graemlins/confused.gif

[LEW]

the WLE Berks had Elesco exhaust
steam injectors.Remember the article
on feedwater heaters,that exhaust
steam injectors were the same as a
feedwater heater.The two funnels, I
think the front one is from the
engineers side on his injector and
the one at the rear is for the firemans injector.
Yes the Main Reservoirs were between
the side fames.Other 4-8-4s also
had this feature,UP,ACL,MILW,and the
D&H.
The air horn was probably like the
sand traps.they were hidden some where in front and were hard to
maintain.They were moved to the
boiler position for ease of mainte-
nance.Also snow could have been
another reason,it gets in the horn
and plugs it up. LEW

[fitz]

LEW, thanks again! You are a regular encyclopedia of information. I have to think of some more puzzling questions (for me) to ask of you. graemlins/clappy.gif

[fitz]

Lew, I have thought of another. Can you tell us the difference between Duplex and BK stokers? I think I know part of the answer, the Duplex was the one with two feeds coming up either side of the firebox door, correct? Thanks. :confused: graemlins/confused.gif

[LEW]

We will start wih the Duplex.The
Duplex had two elevator barrels coming through the cab floor at an
angle on each side of the firebox
door against the backhead of the
boiler.They were fed by a conveyer
screw from the tender to the elevators.At the upper end of the
barrels about 1/3 of the way
from the top were openings from the
barrels to the fire box.At these
openings were distributing plates.
Above and behind these plates were
steam jets that blowed the coal into
the fire box.The fireman adjusted
the jet pressure by valves in the
steam line to the jets.Yo adjusted
the pressure by starting the stoker
with about 15lbs.of jet pressure and
observe where the coal was going in
the fire box.After the fireman was
satisfied he would note the pressure
on both jets and close the main valve to the jets.The pressure gauge
for the jets was a duplex gauge and
recorded both pressures on one gauge
These barrels operated on a ratchet
and paw system some what like a reel
type push lawn mower.They would make a half turn ratchet back and make
another half turn.If you wanted to
reverse one of the barrels if some-
thing lodged in the elevator you
lifted the top up as far as it would
go and the ratchet and paw was
reversed and the elevator reversed
direction.If you did not want the
elevator to turn you lifted the top
up halfway and it would not turn.We
would use the 3/4 in.hose used to
clean the cab and water the coal to
keep the dust down under the stoker
top when we did not want that barrel
to operate. There was another steam
gauge next to the jet gauge that
recorded the pressure to the stoker
engine.These stokers fired lite in
the rear(that's the end where the fire box door is located)so the fire
man usually built a small heel or
ridge of coal along the rear of the
fire box.This type of stoker was not
the best but they got the job done.
When I started some H-10s and all of
the H-6 locomotives had the Duplex
stokers.
The BK stokers were screw fed from
tender to the fire box.About two ft.
from the fire box the conveyer came
through the cab floor angling up to the fire box door opening The fire box doors(butterfly)closed on top of the stoker where it entered the
fire box. On these stokers was a dis
tributing plate about two ft. wide
extending into the fire box about 10 in. just
below where the coal was discharged
from the stoker into the fire box.
The dist. plate had two curved ribs
on each rear corner to direct the
coal to the corners.Just above the
dist. plate was was 11 jets.Two
for each rear corner and the rest
covering the sides,front and center
of the fire box.One row of jets across was for fine coal and the
others for heavier bigger coal.As the coal came through the screw it
came out in lumps around 1 1/2 -2ins. in size.
At the fireman's position were five
jet valves and a main valve arranged
like an arrow pointed down.Across
the top,l-r, left rear,main and right rear. Next l-r, l side,lfront
and center,r side,rfront and center.
At the point was the fine coal.This
covered the entire fire box.To start
you closed all of the jets except the fine coal.Then you started the
stoker and adjusted the fine coal
to not quite reach the front of the
fire box.Then both side and front jets,also not quite reaching the front.Then both rear jets.You would
have to fine tune the jets when the
engineer started working the engine
pulling the train.This was a much
better stoker because you had more control over the placement of the coal.You could roll a heel in the
back by simply closing the jets and
running the stoker until you had the size heel you wanted.Standard also
made a model HT stoker that was a
later model that I think was a much
better stoker.You could do anything
with the HT that you could do with
a shovel as concerning placement of
coal LEW

[fitz]

LEW, wow! and thanks again. That is the most technical and operational information I have ever seen, anywhere, on stokers. I have seen old photos of NYC cabs with the duplex which seemed pretty obvious from the two "barrels." I assume the only way you could "tune" each jet was to keep the fire doors open to watch? :confused: graemlins/confused.gif

[LEW]

The initial jet setting was done on the ready track. It did not take
any real time and was a starting
point.Sometimes you hit it right
the first time.The harder the engine
was worked usually pulled the coal forward and this was what you looking for when you fine tuned.the coal might be covering just right or
you might have to reduce the total jet pressure a little.If you wanted to get a good look at the fire you
opened the fire door and held it
open with the pedal and if you wanted to look at the left side you
placed the blade of the shovel
vertical on the right side of the door causing draft to pull the fire away
from the left side of the fire box.
This gave you a perfect view of the condition of the fire on that side and
by placing the shovel on the other side you had a quick view of the entire fire box.
On the Duplex the fireman had to shovel in the heel and maintain it
at different times during the trip.
LEW

[Black Cloud]

Lew, what part of good ole' Indiana are you from?

[LEW]

Live at Knightstown.Worked at So.
Anderson 31 yrs. and Avon-Crestline,
Ohio 11 yrs. LEW

[LEW]

A little more on stokers.the Central also used the Hanna stoker of which
there were two types,the S-f and
the H-4.The Hanna differed from the
Standard BK and HTin that it had
only two jet valves,a sheet blast for fine coal and nozzles for larger coal.The delivery from the tender
to fire door was by a screw in a
conveyor.On the S-f there was a side
screw on each side at the fire door
to give an even distibution of coal
at the distributor plate.I only know
of one engine in our area with this
type of stoker.It was an L-2 4-8-2
2706 and was the fireman's friend.
This engine had a good water pump
and was an easy steamer. When the
engineer had the engine running on
almost level track and on the Mich.
Br.it was still up and down,you could set the pump and stoker with the steam pressure about 5# under the pops and it would go 3 or 4
miles dropping 5# of steam up grade
and pick it up going down
On the H-4 stoker you did not have
the side screws.On both models you
controlled the amount of coal to the corners gates or slides The fireman
could adjust these gates to any amount for the condition at hand.If the fire was light in the middle you could lift both gates throwing the coal
to the middle.If light under the
dist. plate cut way back on the fine
coal.The two hands on the Duplex
gauge were black for fine coal or
low pressure and red for larger coal
or high pressure.Wet coal changed
the pressure needed more on these
stokers than the Standard.Some of the H-10's had these stokers and did
good job.One day I was having a
little trouble with the fire and the enginer said that he reversed the
jet pressure when he was firing this
stoker.Normally the red hand was
ahead.This was because the fine coal
the black hand would have 10# and the red hand would have 15#.I reversed the pressures and always
had a good fire with these engines.
I know I'm running on forever but one more thing.When we were on the
B&O between N Vernon,In. and Jeffersonvile,In. they would run these H-10's as fast as they would
go, and this was 68-70mph.From about
62mph on up they would get what I
called the pop corn shuffle.At these speeds the engine was getting out of balance and would start to suffle
like a pop corn popper on a stove.
When they started this you shut the
jet pressure off and rolled the coal
in as if you were firing under normal conditions. The shuffle would
move the coal from the rear to the
front of the fire box as if you were using the jets.When you arrived at
the house your fire was about 5 in.
deep and flat as a floor a perfect
fire. LEW
coal jet

[fitz]

LEW, there's no way you could say too much about those subjects. Great information and sad that those days are gone forever. Yesterday I chased the SP 4-8-4 4449, which is an oil burner. It has 5 or more valves on the fireman's side that I guess send an atomized spray of oil into different sectors of the firebox, much like the coal stokers fed different sectors. :confused: graemlins/confused.gif

[hudsonut1]

Fitz
The air horns were add ons. They weren't built with them.
The whistle was laying down near the stack on the fireman's side (left).
The bell was mounted under the pilot,on the right side.

[LEW]

Hudsonutt,glad you could clear up the horn and bell.Do you have any
idea when they applied the horn?
Can remember hearing these engines
whistle but with the air horn on the side of the boiler the sound could be deadened.Did they keep both
whistle and horn? LEW

[fitz]

Thanks Ron. I assume from the whistle location that you have found the sought after photo of the top of the Niagara. :confused:

[hudsonut1]

"Central Headlight" First Quarter 1989,says that 5500 was the first to have the horn on 3/5/47 and that "it is probable that all"...had them within a short time after that. Any photos that I have looked at since this came up that were taken after 1947 show the horns.

[hudsonut1]

Fitz,yes I found some shots of the stack area. I had seen that side before but couldn't find the right side.
Oh,one more thing,about the bell. Seems some of the Niagara's had them placed on the right side above the valve gear hanger in later years.

[LEW]

I was forced assigned as an engineer
to the Goshen switch run in the early
60's.As our division was a young
division,meaning the engineers were
from 30-50 yrs.old,I worked with
older by 10 yrs.mainline NYC firemen
and they would tell about firing
the 6000's.East bound from Elk to
Goshen is slightly up grade and 10
mile between.They said with any
passenger train if you were not
running 80 mph. through Goshen some-
thing was wrong with the engine.
Coming west;about 10 east of Goshen
it started down grade slightly at
Millersburg all the way to Elk.These
engines steamed so easy and just
more or less drifted the 20 miles
that you had to watch the fire or
it would almost be out at Elk.and
the steam pressure would still be
against the pops.Hudsonut1 I notice
the word michigan in your profile
would you be interested in a photo
of the Niles Michigan depot LEW

[hudsonut1]

Sure,always looking for photos of anything Michigan, on the Central.
There has been some discussion regarding the use / lack of 6000's on the MC.
It has been stated that they didn't run between Chicago and Detroit because of the clearences in Detroit. There were only certain tracks in the terminal area that they could run on.
Do you know if they ran to Jackson at all?
I am from the Detroit area (Wayne).The only 6000's I saw were at Toledo.
Thanks,Ron

[LEW]

No I don't have an answer.When we were working steam we ran from Benton Harbor-Niles-South Bend and
return.At the time of night we were
at Niles yard it was frieght running
time.After diesels and they shut down Niles our terminal was changed
to Niles and when I was forced as-
signed to Niles I don't remember any
of the engine crews talking about
the 6000s.The crews on the west end
worked Niles-Chicago and return.On
the east end Jackson-Niles-Detroit
deadhead back to Jackson.The next
trip they would reverse and I think
one crew ran Jackson -Niles and return.Of course the 16 hr. law was
still in.If the crews worked this
schedule with steam I don't know.If
they had restrictions I don't imagine they used the 6000 because
of the hassle of changing power at
Jackson except in an emergency on an
east bound from Chicago.
e-mail your address to my personal
e-mail and I will send the photo
by snail mail.The photo is about 4
yrs. old. LEW

[Hudson5432]

LEW:
I enjoyed your narrative re stoker types and methods of firing very much. I was especially interested in your remarks re the Hanna stokers. In the Staufer book "Thoroughbreds" in the "From the Men" section he confirms that L-2 #2706 was equipped with a Hanna. Of more interest to me is that he also stated J-3 Hudson #5432 had a Hanna. Do you have any first hand experience with this Hudson? I have heard that it was a "west end" engine. (I have the builder's plate from Hudson 5432.)
To All:
The Headlight article on the Niagaras should not have commented that #5500 was the first to have an air horn applied, as it could not be confirmed. This was a simple mod. Older fellow members of the NYC Historical Society heard that the air horn application was a possible safety issue, as a broken whistle cord and also the distance to the whistle from the engineer's position made the whistle difficult to hear in bad weather with the cab windows closed. Note that I am unable to confirm this info positively, but feel it is worth repeating.

The bells were also relocated on the Niagaras from behind the pilot to a location above the valve gear yoke on the engineer's side of the engine. This change was evidently made since bells were freezing and became inoperative in winter weather. (The streamlined Hudsons were also delivered with the bells behind the pilot, and evidently were not relocated while these engines were streamlined.

With regard to use of Niagaras on the Michigan Central, if these engines had a clearance restriction, then it would have been listed in a Michigan Central employees operating timetable. I do not have any MC timetables, but perhaps someone who has one (some?) can check this for us. I think it more likely that "Power Control" in NY kept these engines within certain assignments, in rotation, to maximize monthly mileage.

[fitz]

Tom, glad to hear from you again. I was getting worried about your well-being. Welcome back. LEW has added a lot of technical info to this forum. graemlins/notworthy.gif graemlins/wow.gif

[LEW]

Glad you enjoyed.No I never fired a Hudson although we did double head
a few from Elkhart-Indianapolis when
they were moving steam to the B4 in
1954-55.A west end engine could mean
it stayed west of Cleveland or Toledo but my guess would be Cleveland.This information on the
whistle could be correct and probably a combination of all.I have
not been to Elk. for 21 yrs.and the
old ones are gone that could tell us
This is true about the bell.We had this same problem with the GP-7,
9 until they moved them above the
headlight.Again I think you are correct on running the 6000's.When the diesels started taking over the
MC with their many good passenger
trains went from the hudson to diesel and there wasn't any need for
the 6000 except on the B4. LEW

[LEW]

I need to make a correction concernig my article on feedwater
heaters. I said the 2900 L-2 had a
elesco feedwater with a recprocating
water pump.They had a centrifugal
pump and loss of 15lb. of boiler
pressure did effect the water delivery from this pump. Lew

[fitz]

Was there that much difference in the performance of a centrifugal vs. reciprocating pump in the feedwater system? :confused:

[LEW]

It was only on the 2900 series that
had this promblem.These engines carried 225lbs. pressure and once
you lost the 15lbs. and you usually
was starting to have trouble with
the fire,for some reason these pumps
were very sensitive to the boiler
pressure below 210lbs.Fire problems
was usually caused by a change in the coal.You would be going along
and the fire would be doing just fine,suddenly the coal would change.
The company used coal from the strip
mines in southern In.and we called it Indiana real estate.There wasn't
any way for you to know the coal was going to change until all at once
the fire started burning a dull red
and the boiler pressure started
dropping.Now you had to increase the
stoker speed for more coal and forget about the smoke and see if you can hold the pressure and check
the depth of the fire.With this dirt coal you have to keep a thin fire
to make it burn.You will have to rock the grates,not shake them to get your fire the right depth,in
fact I have left the grates slightly
cocked with this coal to get all of
draft I could to make it burn.
All of the 2900's that I fired had this problem,some more than others.
I don't know if these pumps were a
little under sized or what but the
reciprocating pumps never gave problems unless they needed repairs.
LEW

[fitz]

If the boiler pressure (steam) dropped, wouldn't that in turn lower the resistance that the pump had to overcome to force water into the boiler? I know I'm missing something here in trying to understand exactly how all these processes are related to each other. :confused:
"Indiana real estate," eh? You mean you guys out west didn't get that high grade coal that the NYC-Chi guys did? :(

[ 22. July 2002, 20:47: Message edited by: fitz ]

[LEW]

I never could find out why this pump
acted in this manner.I have been
telling what took place but not all
of the actions.
When the steam pressure was 210-215
lbs.the pump would supply the boiler
and if you opened the steam valve it would supply more water than the loco was using.This is as it should be if the pump is normal.The problem
was as the steam pressure dropped
below 210 it seemed as if the pump
slowed down more and at 200 lb. the
pump even though the control valve
to the pump was wide open would not supply the boiler.It was as if for
every 1lb of steam you lost you would lose 3lb.to the pump and the
pump would slow down, the pressure acting as a governor.The 2800 L-2
had coffin feed water heaters and used a centrifugal pump but not this
underpumping problem.All pumps would slow down as the steam pressure dropped but not to this extreme.Also
this slow down did not start until
the steam pressure was below 195lbs.
on all of the other pumps.As you say
all things being equal you should have been able to supply the boiler
down to about 180lbs.and you could
except with the one pump.If all 2900
had this problem I don't know but the several that I fired did.In fact
there was a point if you were trading water for steam ,forget the pump and use the injector.I don't
know if I answered questions or
created more but sometimes you react
to a problem and never know what
caused it because you can't get to
the information. LEW

[Hytec]

It sounds like the centrifugal pumps could get you into a dangerous situation of low water. Why did the centrifugal pumps remain on engines? Were they less expensive, easier to maintain, or what?

[fitz]

LEW, the light bulb just lit up over my head. I keep forgetting (duuuh) that all appliances operated either by steam or by air. It's kind of a catch-22 when the steam pressure drops off, everything slows down. I guess I never thought about things like "at what pressure (or lack of) does the pump stop working at normal capacity?" Thanks for all of this great information. Steam engines were (are) fascinating creatures. graemlins/shakehead.gif

[Hudson5432]

My father told me that the 2800's were better engines than the 2900's...but he never told me why. Perhaps LEW's post is the reason!

[LEW]

Hank,When you had this water supply
problem and after every thing was back to normal you took it in stride
and accepted this flaw on these
engines, always ready when working on these engines.If there had been 2 or
3 boiler explosions and someone had
survived to tell the story something
may have been done.If you reported
the pump they would have tested with
220 lbs.boiler pressure and would OK
the pump.The engineer or myself would have to hold their hand and
make sure the pressure was 195lbs.
and when it showed it was not suppling the boiler they would say use the injector that's what it is on there for.So the problem was never admitted to exist. LEW

[LEW]

As with everything else, without the
word EXCEPT, the world as we know it could not function.Some of the L-3s
had elesco feed water heaters and the same
water pump as the 2900s.I don't remember having any water problems
with these engines.Of course they
may have recognized the problem as
used on the 2900s and corrected this
on the 303?.I can't believe it was
anything more than a larger supply
pipe from the turrent to the pump.
LEW