Kingsbury/Chicago or Beer line/Milwaukee ?

[R P Smith]

Well push is about to come to shove soon, and I am about to start work on my layout.
Multi room, thru walls, lots of right of way.

Before setting out in the direction I think I am going, I pose this question:

If you had you choice to model in HO the Kingsbury Branch and supporting trackage in Chicago, or the Beer Line and supporting Trackage in Milwaukee, which would it be and why? (Both suit my needs of heavy switching)

[BoxcabE50]

Ron-

I case you'e not aware of this, perhaps it's a site of interest?

http://hometown.aol.com/wdenton101/index.htm?f=fs

Although N scale. It might give you some ideas. There have been at least two excellent articles in model magazines about Bill's work.

:D

Boxcab E50

[Jim Bernier]

Both lines have been well documented. MR did a series of articles on the Kingsbury line, and there is the above web site on a neat piece of it in 'N' scale.
The 'Beer Line' was made famous in an old Trains article many years ago. The Milwaukee Historical group published a really complete soft cover book on the 'Beer Line' about a year ago. I spent the entire evening reading it. There was a lot more than the beer traffic on the line.
Both lines would be good starting point for a industrial line in a big city.

Jim Bernier

[ak-milw]

That would be a hard one for me to call. Both have great possibilities. Might have to flip a coin!! graemlins/220.gif

[R P Smith]

Bill Denton's work is what hooked me on the Milwaukee Road. My desire to do heavy industral/city switching comes from both Bill's Kingsbury insperation, and Cab Riding with my Dad, switching the Kenton Branch on the UP, here in Portland Oregon. Many times he would climb out of the seat, put me behind the controls, and I would run the switcher all up and down the line. It was pretty cool for a 12-17 year old. I want to bring a little of that and Dad back with the layout. I can't model the UP, it would be too much like work, so Kenton Branch is out. I also perfer the mid 60s, I don't want to deal with much stuff I work on everyday (Though the 1959 and 1961 Hillsdale County 50 ft riveted side boxes I worked on today were pretty cool), so 1966 or so on the Milwaukee Road suits me just fine.

For years I have been researching the Milwaukee Road in Chicago, to get ready for this layout, Mike, a very great friend and president of our train club, grew up in Chicago and wants very bad to do the track planning help on the layout. He loves the research I have put together for it. Now our club just lost its home of many years, dual scale, the n scalers will keep things going with modules, till we find a new home, but the HO guys have nothing, so they want to keep themselv'es together by building and operating my layout, they will work on anything Milw. In fact the HO layout that was just tore down had all new top of the line code 83 and 70 track and Dygatrax DCC, etc. Much of that maybe used to build this layout (salvage cost). Parts of Galewood yard to end of Kingsbury fits very well in house (no goose island)

I have been building up Milw. equipt, several Fairbanks Morse switchers (including #718, in Yellow, that I was going to "move" to Chicago just to be able to run it. Its as close to Dads UP switchers as I can get on the Milw.), FM switchers are a Personal favorite, I also have a lot more geared to the mid 60s.

Tommorow night Mike is coming up to look at the space, have Dinner, and start planing.

Now why at this late date am I asking about "The Beer Line"? Until today, I did not know much about it. On my way home, I stopped at a local hobby shop to check for new magazines. Nothing new, but a book I had never seen before damm near jumped into my hands(it was pretty weird) "Model Railroader Books:Classic Railroads you can model", I opened it up to the index, "Milwaukee Roads Beer Line".
I started looking at those pictures, and it reminded in some ways of the Kenton Branch, its not "flat", FM switchers galore, don't have to "Move" 718 and I could have 733. I see a lot of good things here, I just don't have enough info, and time factor comes into play.

I saw the "Beer Line Book" on the Milw.Historical page, and wondered about it, but cash was non existant at the time. Now the link for it is gone from their site, anyone know how I could find a copy?

Also Mike is the one that taught me to paint wargame miniatures, I took that all the way to first place SiFi Units and runner up to best of Show at Gen Con (Milwaukee)(gen con is the largest of the national level wargame conventions), I honestly think I can do good things in model railroading too. Now the Kingsbury Branch is well known and covered, but "The Beer Line"? I think it would be easiler to show off "The Beer Line" rather than riding on Bill Denton's coat tails, if you know what I mean.

Not sure what to do here.....

[BoxcabE50]

Ron-

The Milwaukee Road's Beer Line book, Special Publication #5, from MRHA was still listed in their last quarterly issue. Unfortunately only updated to October 1, 2004. For sale offerings, ("company store"), are shown in the Hiawathagram. Try e-mailing MRHA. If sold out, there may be a couple of outside sources. One could be Ted Schnepf via his shop "Rails Unlimited." He has a web site. URL not at hand right now. Try a Google search.

Also, years ago, maybe still available, Kalmbach did a softcover book titled "More Railroads You Can Model." Check with friends for a copy. It has a story about modeling the Beer Line.

:D

Boxcab E50

[R P Smith]

Originally posted by BoxcabE50:
Ron-


Also, years ago, maybe still available, Kalmbach did a softcover book titled "More Railroads You Can Model." Check with friends for a copy. It has a story about modeling the Beer Line.

:D

Boxcab E50 The book I just bought yesterday has that article, the new book is Railroads you can model and more railroads you can model, reprinted in one book.

[BoxcabE50]

I'd bet that between the two publications, when you get the MRHA edition, you'll have the bulk of what can be readily found, in hand.

Am looking foward to seeing how you start your planning!

:D

Boxcab E50

[R P Smith]

Originally posted by BoxcabE50:
I'd bet that between the two publications, when you get the MRHA edition, you'll have the bulk of what can be readily found, in hand.

Am looking foward to seeing how you start your planning!

:D

Boxcab E50 I am also thinking, Morning Sun Books: Milwaukee Road in color, Vol 2 Milwaukee would be of help.

[BoxcabE50]

redface.gif Oops. Guess I should have worded my message a little better. I was thinking more from the model RR construction aspect, than of prototype research info. redface.gif

True. That book has some good pictures. Especially FM units at work. Never leave the fireman's side door open on a hot day.........

:D

Boxcab E50

[marty coil]

Ahhhh...The Milwaukee Road (N)
http://www.railimages.com/albums/martycoil/ags.sized.jpg

http://www.railimages.com/albums/martycoil/agk.sized.jpg

[BoxcabE50]

Hi Marty! I was hoping you'd pop in and say hello!

I have both of the MR mag Kingsbury Branch articles saved in my scrapbook binder of favorites. In fact, the author, Bill Denton, is a TrainBoard member. And has posted in the N Scale Forum just this week.

:D

Boxcab E50

[R P Smith]

Well, Mike came up last night, had dinner (Venison Backstrap) and looked at the right of way for the layout. He saw a lot of possabilities to work with. I waited till after dinner to throw "The Beer Line" monkey wrench at him. He looked at the info in the Classic Railroads you can model book, smiled, opened it up to the page with the overview map, and headed down stairs. After about a hour of Mike comparing "The Beer Line" to the space I had to work with, he agreed it was the better choice, not to take anything away from the Kingsbury/Chicago, he just liked the Character of "The Beer Line". I told him I had talked to Frank at Des Plaines Hobbies about we were doing and not wanting to ride on Bill Dentons coat tails, because I have so much respect for Bill and his work. Frank had understood, and said "go with your gut" Mike agreed with this too, and the Beer Line it is.
Ho Scale, 1966 time period>

Frank had me call Andover Junction Publishing direct, they still have copies of "Milwaukee Road's Beer Line", I sent a check out this morning.

Now I have a lot of research to do over, one thing that would help, if its not to much to ask Boxcab is either copies of your 65 and 67 maint rousters, or a list of units assigned to Milwaukee area during this time period. I am also looking for a copy of MRHA special pub #3, "The Milwaukee Road, in Milwaukee", Andover does not have anymore of these.

We will build in stages, getting one room well along before starting the next (best way to keep a supportive wife, supportive)
It looks like we will start in a finished 10 x 12 bedroom, at first glance we can fit Chesnut Street Yard, the Schlitz Brewery, and the interesting multi level switching NE of the Brewery, up to but not including Humbolt Yard, in the besromm fair credably, we will blow thru the wall and put temporary staging in the next bedroom. Thats stage 1. Stage 2 will remove the tempory staging, to be replaced with Humbolt Yard staging will be moved up line. Stage 3 will include a major adjustment to the location of my computer deck, a swing gate, Contenental Can, the Schlitz Warehouses, maybe a set out track for American Motors, and again temp staging moves up the line.
Stage 4 is Glendale yard and Evinrude Motors, with Muskego Yard/ CNW/Soo staging, underneath Glendale Yard.
There is more room to expand from there, but if we never get any farther than that, it would still suit my needs. Now this is just a at first glance, till I get more research. Guess its a good thing I have those 3 Walthers FM Switchers, now I'll need to find 3 more.

Mike had wanted to loop back at the end and double deck the whole thing, I told him, that would be a good way to end my Marrage. I told my wife about that this morning, she reacted just like I thought, "No Way". Just got to know how far you can take things, and on that note, I'll wait till stage 2 is done before I mention moving my computer deck ;)

[ak-milw]

I didn't want to sway you one way or the other, but was hoping you went with the Beer Line! graemlins/220.gif

[BoxcabE50]

Ron-

I can scan the pages with appropriate information. Let me know if that works for you? 1965? 1967? If anyone is interested, I could probably even post them here, for all to view?

:D

Boxcab E50

[R P Smith]

Boxcab,
Scanning works fine, post here and I can print it, or email it to me (my email link, is in my profile). Since I know you don't have 1966, I figure I can get close enough to 1966 by combining the two.
Thank You for the help,

[BoxcabE50]

Ron-

I'd forgotten that 1960's and earlier, they used a different format. Scanning would require doing about 30 sheets total of both dates. :eek:

I've extracted info into some scribbled notes. Will transcribe a little later, and then post what I found.

:D

Boxcab E50

[Bill Denton]

Hi Guys,

Boxcab-Thanks for pointing this section out to me.

An interesting TRAIN of thought (pun intended of course) on what to model and almost the exact problem I faced when deciding what to build for a switching layout. I ended up choosing the Kingsbury branch because I was able to find more readily available information at the time. I also happened to live closer to Kingsbury than the Beer Line and have made several trips to visit what was left of the line. I believe I made the right decision for myself.

The Beer Line is an equally interesting piece of the Milwaukee Road and I think you will find it both challenging and rewarding to model. Good luck Ron and I hope to hear more about your RR in the future.

[BoxcabE50]

Ron-

Here is the info I gathered. Hope it will paste decently And that it's somehow helpful?

October of 1965:

All the following are maintenance based out of Milwaukee. (Milwaukee Shops.)

Work Assignment= Freight Pool: 79AC; 87ABC; 88ABC; 89ABC; 101B; 105B; 106A; 107A; 108A; 109ABC; 110ABC; 111ABC; 113ABC; 114ABC; 115ABC; 116ABC; 117ABC; 118ABC; 119ABC; 120ABC; 121ABC; 125ABCD; 126ABCD; 200-219; 242-269; 286; 288; 293; 304; 307-317; 319-324; 326; 327; 329-331.

Work Assignment= Milwaukee: 401; 402 Milwaukee Shop (Shop Goat?); 425; 493 Milwaukee Shop (Shop Goat?); 600; 603; 609-612; 631; 643; 647; 648; 732-734; 738-740; 752; 762 (Lease to A.O.Smith); 773; 962; 966(Stored); 967(Stored.)

February of 1967:

All the following are maintenance based out of Milwaukee. (Milwaukee Shops.)

Work Assignment= Freight Pool: 62ABC; 63AC; 64ABC; 76C; 77ABC; 78AC; 79AC; 87ABC; 88ABC; 89ABC; 98B; 101B; 105B; 106A; 107A; 108A; 109ABC; 110ABC; 111ABC; 113ABC; 114ABC; 115ABC; 116ABC; 117ABC; 118ABC; 119ABC; 120ABC; 121ABC; 173-199; 200-205; 260-269.

Work Assignment= Milwaukee: 286; 288; 340; 341; 428, 429; 451; 452; 458; 464; 505; 506; 512; 515; 547-552; 600; 601; 610-612; 631; 642; 647; 648; 691AB; 700-703; 706; 707; 709; 710; 718; 720; 726; 732-734; 738-741; 746; 748; 762 (Lease to A.O.Smith); 768; 773; 962.

:D

Boxcab E50

[BoxcabE50]

Originally posted by Bill Denton:
Hi Guys,

Boxcab-Thanks for pointing this section out to me. Bil-

Delighted to see you here in this Forum. And over on our N scale as well! Please join in when you'd like. And keep us posted on your module progess!

:D

Boxcab E50

[R P Smith]

Boxcab,
That hits right on the money, and I can't thank you enough. I have spent a large part of the day, moving your data to the roster, then checking picture sources to see what can be found, then adding that to the roster, I am working up a proposed roster for the layout from all that. Only question I have right now is
RSD-2(RS-2)#493, when it got converted to B+B, did it get Blunt Trucks? Any pictures? If so that might be a easy build with a Proto 1000 RS-2 or RSD-2 and trucks from a Proto 2000 S1.

Bill,
So great to see you here, I emailed you a long time ago, you have no idea how much the "Kingbury Branch" has shaped what I want in a Model Railroad. If I was doing N Scale, I would take up your challenge and build the next section of the Kingbury Branch and find a way to get it to a show so we could join them together. I tried N Scale, but its just no good anymore for my ageing eyes and hands, so HO it has to be. I think last time we crossed paths, you out bid me on a N Scale Atlas Milw. GP-30 on ebay at the last second. Thats ok though my Proto 2000 Milw,
GP-30 arrived in the mail, just yesterday.
Thanks for thoughts on this thread, I am going to be very happy with "The Beer Line", I think I already have a good vision of how to put the end of the branch in a 10 x 12 bedroom, with lots of room to work up the branch and a bit beyond. Unlike you neither is close to McMinnville, Oregon, but there is a lot of good info in print, and help to be had from friends, both on and off the Internet. Mike and I both have been to Milwaukee several times and like the town a lot. We think at some point, a field trip will be in order, him being a big "Goat" nut, he said something about "Empire Builder", with a big smile. I really think for Myself, the Club, and everything else considered, it is the best choice.

[BoxcabE50]

Originally posted by R P Smith:
Only question I have right now is
RSD-2(RS-2)#493, when it got converted to B+B, did it get Blunt Trucks? Any pictures? If so that might be a easy build with a Proto 1000 RS-2 or RSD-2 and trucks from a Proto 2000 S1.
Ron-

If you notice, 493 shows in 1965. But not in 1967. This is because it was traded in on the 1966 GP40 order.

There were two ALCo units that carried the number 493. The first was an RS2. It's fate I do not know.

The second, was the trade-in. This one was an RS3. As far as I know, only RS2 units received the Blunt style switcher trucks.

Guess it's time to dig out the books, and see if perhaps there is a photo. I don't believe there is a slide in my collection. But I'll look later.

:D

Boxcab E50