Freds?

[CPRailfan]

I think that's what the blinking red lights on the end of a train are called, but why? And are they supposed to be on at all times, or just during foggy days and night time? Anybody have pictures?
These have always been interesting for some reason..I can never wait to see the blinking fred on the last car as it rolls by. Kinda like a caboose smile.gif

This also brings up another question. The blinking blue lights that are placed on the tracks. Do those show that that specific track is closed? And do they have a nickname?

Thanks

[yankinoz]

Flashing Rear End Devices (I think)- and I think they also send a radio signal back to the lead unit to let the crew know the last car is still there, probibly includes air pressure and more data as well.

[Gregg Mahlkov]

"FRED's" Flashing Rear End Devices are better known in the industry as "EOT" (End Of Train) Devices. They are placed on the last car by a Car Inspector or one of the crew, depending on the union agreement, when the train is ready to depart, and "armed". The latest ones not only monitor brake pipe pressure and motion, but can be made to initiate a brake application at the same time as the locomotive, reducing the time for an emergency application to take effect by a half. :cool:

[CPRailfan]

Thanks Rob and Gregg smile.gif

[Gregg Mahlkov]

"Blue Lights" have replaced "Blue Flags". When either is placed on a track or piece of equipment, no movement may be made on that track or of that equipment until the "Blue Flag" is removed BY THE PERSON WHO PLACED IT THERE AND THAT PERSON ONLY. This is one of the most important protections that railroad maintenance workers have and violations of it carry crimnial penalties in many areas. smile.gif :eek:

[CPRailfan]

Thanks once again Gregg smile.gif

[Driver8]

We at CP, call them SBU's, Sense and Braking Units. I call it a FRED, and alot of other guys do too.

[yankinoz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregg Mahlkov:
no movement may be made on that track or of that equipment until the "Blue Flag" is removed BY THE PERSON WHO PLACED IT THERE AND THAT PERSON ONLY.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to ask, but what if the person who placed it there dies? I know of other RR rules that take the possible death of an emplyee into consideration (like dead man pedles in locomotives.) I hate to bring it up, but I'm sure it happens... hopefully not as the result of movement of the equipment that has the blue flag :eek:

[yankinoz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gregg Mahlkov:
The latest ones not only monitor brake pipe pressure and motion, but can be made to initiate a brake application at the same time as the locomotive, reducing the time for an emergency application to take effect by a half. :cool:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very cool smile.gif

[Colonel]

The blue light rule is very interesting, what if the engineer misses it and continues down the track where track workers could be?
Our rules require a red flag and 3 detonators on the line as protection. If a train goes past the red flag / light the 3 detonators will be struck giving the workers an audible alarm of approaching trains. We must place the protection out almost 2 miles from the worksite.
Maybe the blue light isn't the only protection used??????

[DaveCN5710]

I never even heard of the term "Fred"

Here where I work we call it a EOT , End Of Train Device . Or simply marker .

We used to use a flashing yellow light called a "star light" but that "star light" would not let you know how much air you had on the tail end , or if your tail end was moving or stopped .

Now it is Federal Law that you have communication with your tail end at all times , once you loose communication , or show no reading back there , you are restricted to 30MPH .

This law came into effect in 1997 , so after that happened the star light is not used anymore , just a little extra INFO I thought I would pass along .

EOT , or Tail End Device , Marker , any of those terms are correct .

[CPRailfan]

I'd never heard the term "Fred" either until reading this month's TRAINS magazine smile.gif Thanks for all the info guys :cool:

[Hytec]

Early on, they were also called "F***ING" Rear End Devices by the crew member who had to carry that heavy "Thing" and mount it on the last car ... and by the Engineer who, if he was a nice guy, would back the train to pick up that cursing crew member :D

[Gats]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel:
The blue light rule is very interesting, what if the engineer misses it and continues down the track where track workers could be?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul, my understanding is the blue flag (or light) is generally used in terminals, engine service facilities, etc. to indicate a piece of equipment or track is being worked on, as Gregg has pointed out. The closest I would equate this to is a red flag placed in the knuckle and the token keys used at FCS (and probably the other depots) for working on the EMU's. For the benefit of others, whilst there is a key out (there are quite a few) of the locking 'system', the overhead cannot be switched in. There is an additional problem in this situation that Rob touched upon, though not involving death, an employee going home with the key in his/her pocket. Kind of screws the show up until the person returns it or it is proven there is nobody working on the equipment and a locksmith is called in, or an emergency key is used (not sure of the procedure used in this situation).

Back to blue flagging equipment, there can be more than one flag attached but the same applies - it cannot be moved or used until the last flag is removed.

But this does bring up protection of a worksite out on the running lines, and probably a new topic.
I believe warrants are issued for a crew to occupy the line between the times given, but is there a procedure in place to warn a train entering the warrant that they are doing so? As Paul stated above, we used detonators to give an audible warning and a flag (or light) for visual.

Gary.

[Peirce]

I am surprised no one has come up with a picture of FRED, up to now. I can't believe I am the only one who has been able to photograph him.

Here are two views of the one at the Danbury Railway Museum. It is quite old and not in the best of condition. This version has very limited function: the flashing light and the connection to monitor the brake line pressure. I am not sure if this one had a motion sensor.

http://images.fotki.com/photos/4/41513/84114/007_MEET_FRED__FLASHING_-or.jpg

And a side view which also shows the common mounting on a coupler.

http://images.fotki.com/photos/4/41513/84114/008_ANOTHER_VIEW_OF_FRED-or.jpg

[ 01 February 2002, 15:02: Message edited by: Peirce ]

[Gregg Mahlkov]

Concerning the placement of a blue flag by an employee who then dies - I truly believe that this is an uncommon enough occurrence that by the the time the cause of death is thoroughly investigated there would be enough supervisory and law enforcement personnel at the scene that someone in authority would remove the blue flag after the investigation were completed! Track maintenance out on the line is generally provided by the dispatcher giving a "track warrant" for a specified segment of track for a specified "window" of time. Crews who doubt the ability of the dispatcher or the willingness of train crews to adhere to orders have been know to place a piece of high rail equipment down the track sufficient distance to stop a train that would hit it. :cool: ;)

[Gats]

Paul, FRA protection regs - http://www.fra.dot.gov/o/counsel/regs/cfr/part/49CFR218v1.htm

Gary.

[Colonel]

Thanks for the infor Gary. Gregg here in aus we do have similar protection as a track warrant. A track worker is issued a T6-400 form which gives the worker authority to occupy a section of track for a given perion. Once the time lapses and the worker has not cancelled the track authority a train can proceed through the section but must maintain constant vigilance and be on lookout for the workers.

[Big Al]

The picture posted by Pierce is of a true FRED, Flashing Rear End Device. This is one of the first style that only provided a flashing light and an air guage that had to be read at the marker by the person making a brake test. Air brake rules require the trainline air pressure to be known at the rear before commencing the brake test. The early markers did not transmit any info to the engine. In the New England region we called them FRED or Billy the Brakeman, the hardest working man on some crews LOL

The first radio equipped units sent only an air pressure reading to the engine.
The modern EOT is equipped with two-way radio telemetry that sends info to the engine regarding air pressure, movement, direction of movement, battery status, flashing light status, and communication status- front to rear and rear to front. The engineer can initiate an emergency application from the rear if so desired by activating a swith/button on the display unit in the cab.

Two-way telemetry devices are required on road freight trains with 3000 tons or authorized to operate over 30 MPH or operating in territory designated as 'heavy grade'

Other freight trains do not need the telemetry device.

All freight trains operating on main track need a red flag or reflectorized marker by day and a light by night or when visibility is obscured so that the end silouette of a boxcar cannot be plainly seen at 1/2 mile or if operating thru tunnels. EOTs and FREDs have a reflectorized red panel and a sensor to turn the light on when needed. Beam pattern and candlepower of the light are specified by the FRA.

Passenger trains are required to display lighted markers at all times, but do not need any telemetry devices as long as the crew has access to the rear car. Amtrak trains with express cars and roadrailers on the rear effectively become freight trains and then do require telemetry.

[CPRailfan]

Al, thanks for the info smile.gif I'm learning a lot about these Freds smile.gif

[Alan]

Al, that was a comprehensive explanation of Fred's. Many thanks, extremely interesting smile.gif

What a great forum this is turning out to be smile.gif

[Rule 281]

Just some additional information...Blue flags or blue lights (both are in use) are for the protection of non-transportation people such as car inspectors, engine house workers etc. who must go in or around equipment that might be moved. Train crews do not use them but are covered by '3 Step' or a similar rule depending on the RR. Anyone applying a blue flag to a track also has to lock any switches leading to that track to prevent access. Going past a blue flag or moving equipment that is flagged is a firing offense and quite likely to be your last day for pay.
MOW guys also don't use blue flags, they have a whole different set of rules that protect them while working. The dispatcher can issue 'Foul time' which means he can't display a signal or issue a Form D (track warrent) giving access to that section of track until the worker reports in the clear. They can also establish 'Working limits' by bulletin order and signs which puts a section of track in control of a foreman who allows traffic through after contact is established and his permission is recieved, or a foreman can take a track out of service which means all movements in that stretch must have a copy of his Form D, his permission to be there, and run at restricted speed.
You have to really be on your toes when track work is going on. The guys out there are depending on you to know what's what and not come down on them.

[CPRailfan]

Thanks for that additional info smile.gif I'm learning lots!

[Fred]

It seems "FRED" is more of a railfan term than a prototype term, here in Detroit the word "marker", "tele" or "EOT" is used when talking about rear end devices.

[CPRailfan]

Thanks Fred smile.gif

[CP&E 3207]

actually it's just a modified coupler with lighted-up conjunctivitis redface.gif :D :D :D :eek: :D

[Hytec]

Here is a photo of an EOT that is being used on CSX, at least down here along the MS Gulf Coast.

The assembly looks to be about 3 feet tall, with the telemetry antenna (UHF?) on top. Note the coupling attached to the airhose gladhand, with a thinner air hose running up to the EOT. If I understood what others have said, this may be the hose that also bleeds air for brake activation from the rear of the train. I believe that the red flashtube is on the rear panel just below the top, although it could be within the red area near the bottom.

I'll try to get more info as to controls and local readouts ... that is, if I can convince a crew to stop their train with the EOT in front of me :D :D :rolleyes:

Later, Hank

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1587009&a=12573782&p=47429246

[ 28 April 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]

[Hytec]

Oops, it posted twice .... sorry, Hank

[ 28 April 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]

[friscobob]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred:
It seems "FRED" is more of a railfan term than a prototype term, here in Detroit the word "marker", "tele" or "EOT" is used when talking about rear end devices.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard railroaders use the term quite often- as a matter of fact, on one railroad
even the head office uses the term FRED referring to EOTs.

BTW, a few more terms for FREDs:

Reddy Kilowatt
One-eyed conductor

ANd of course, the effing rear-end device :D

[CPRailfan]

Thanks guys! I like the picture Hank smile.gif And Bob, thanks for the extra info, I'm learning more than I ever thought I would about Freds smile.gif

[Peirce]

Excellent picture, Hank. In contrast to my picture, it shows that EOTs (or FREDs) have come a long way.

On my tours of the Danbury Railway Museum, I usually refer to FRED as the guy who killed the caboose.

[ 29 April 2001: Message edited by: Peirce ]

[Rule 281]

Originally posted by Fred:
It seems "FRED" is more of a railfan term than a prototype term, here in Detroit the word "marker", "tele" or "EOT" is used when talking about rear end devices.

Likewise, although they get called lots of other things when they don't link or dump.

:mad:

[watash]

I watched the Learning Channel's one hour History of the Caboose last night, and when the EOT's first came out in the late 1970's early 1980's, they were refered to as "FREDS". That stood for: "Flashing Rear End Device". This was supposed to improve company profits by moving the Conductor up to the engine for his safety from rear-end collisions. It would save fuel and reduce the amount of pollution and speed up freight deliveries, by not having to pull the heavy Caboose. It all started when the "Pooling" idea began to reduce the number of Conductors who "had" their own Caboose. For a hundred years The Caboose was home to the Conductor for 30 to 40 years, and he took it with him. Most Conductors were in charge of a certain section ot rail line. He would connect his Caboose to a train at one end of his section governing the train through to the other end of his section, where he would disconnect. Another Conductor would have his Caboose coupled on, and take the train to the other end of his jurisdiction. Sometimes as many as eight Caboose changes would be required to move a train from Chicago to Las Angles. Pooling eleminated the Changing of all the Cabooses, since one Caboose made the trip all the way, and was used by several Conductors. Quickly, pooled Cabooses fell into dis-repair, because Conductors had lost their pride in what had been home to them most of their life. The first Fred spelled the end for Conductors having anykind of office to concentrate on all the paperwork required. Both brakeman, flagman, and in some cases the fireman were all eleminated in one fell swoop. Freds merely flashed a "Tail light" so there was no one to protect the rear of a train. Now days they have developed the END OF TRAIN device to not only flash a red tail light, but to (when they are working), also monitor airbrake air pressure. The EOT can apply air brakes which is supposed to speed up the brake application. Even though the EOT is not as safe nor as reliable as a live Conductor, the profit margin is such that Conductors will never again be as respected or needed as they were in the olden days. Where once the Conductor was the Boss of the Train, now he has been relegated to being just a member of the crew.

[ 01 May 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

[CPRailfan]

Thanks watash. I especially don't remember any cabooses, and don't know a lot about 'em. I guess you could say I grew up with the EOT's..so thanks for the caboose info smile.gif

[watash]

You missed an excellent hour long program on Caboose history, Drew. It was on the History or Learning Channel. Remember I told you about being in a Caboose when all the slack suddenly came out of that last coupler? WOW!

Hank, look at the top of the battery box that has the red lable on it, and note the clear glass lens. There is a red flasher light (strobe) that shines out from there. Never look directly into one of these when it is flashing, the strobe is super bright and will damage your eyes permanently. The type you have in your photo, is much brighter than the old red lens tail light type they called Fred.

[CPRailfan]

Yes, I remember you tellin' us about that, watash :eek: I didn't know the strobe could damage your eyes..thanks once again smile.gif

[Hytec]

Thanks Watash, I agree, flash tubes can be very intense, I try not to look at them.

I believe that the stobes on the CSX EOTs are controlled by a photocell. I don't think I've ever seen a strobe operating during daylight.


Question for the guys that hang and remove EOTs ..... :confused:

Is there something that lets you know when an EOT battery needs charging? I assume it would not be good if an EOT ran out juice halfway through a run :eek:

Hank

[Rule 281]

I believe that the stobes on the CSX EOTs are controlled by a photocell. I don't think I've ever seen a strobe operating during daylight.

Yep Hank, all EOTs should not flash during the day.

Question for the guys that hang and remove EOTs .....

Is there something that lets you know when an EOT battery needs charging? I assume it would not be good if an EOT ran out juice halfway through a run

If you're adding a marker, you always use a fresh battery but most of them give a readout of battery charge state when you push the button to arm them. If it does go dead (pretty common) then there are a bunch of rules that come into effect depending on the train and the territory.

281

[Big Al]

Most units will send a 'battery weak' indication to the head end so you can make plans if possible to get a fresh battery at the next available point.

If a marker shows less than 90 % charge it is not usually considered good enough to leave the terminal, at least on my RR.

[CPRailfan]

I will try and get pics of either UP's or CP's EOTs around here in Milwaukee ;)

[watash]

Drew, you can get a copy of the Code of Federal Regulations Title 49 part 221 in soft cover from:

www.transalert.com (http://www.transalert.com) Railway Educational Bureau

Item BKEND Rear End Marking Device $2.25 on page 2 (lower right hand corner) of their catalog. Their catalog is full of Manuals from "Qualifications and Certification of Locomotive Engineers" to Training videos and SD40-2 Locomotive Chart (cut-a-way view nomenclature). Very informative. Even has things for model railroaders! You can enroll in courses on page 108 & 9. :D

[CPRailfan]

Thanks watash, I'm going to look at that site some more tonight, it looks cool. Thanks buddy smile.gif

[ROMAFERN]

All this talk about FREDs....Do any of you guys have a FRED on your train layout? Any ideas how to intall one for N scale?

Rob

:cool: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Hytec]

I saw a one mounted on/in an N-Scale boxcar at a show a while back. The light was a red LED with the circuitry installed in the car. I assume it was battery powered since it operated while the train was stopped.

Wasn't there an article on making Fred's in MR a few years back?

Hank

[ROMAFERN]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hank Coolidge:

Wasn't there an article on making Fred's in MR a few years back?

Hank[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If any of you guys have this article, could you scan it and send it to me? :D

[watash]

One was made by using the flasher unit and red light from a little (almost) HO toy car. It had also been mounted in an HO Box car. It protruded out the rear end just above the coupler.

There might be room to mount one in an N scale car. There was a toy ambulance and fire warden's car too. It seems like it said Walmart, or KMart toy store, one of the discount stores maybe.

[ROMAFERN]

Great ideas, thanks for the input.
:cool: :D

[Charlie]

According to rule, a blue flag(or light)may be removed by the person who placed it there
or by a member of the same class or craft.
violating blue flag protection is an extremely serious safety rule violation and
will DEFINITELY get you fired.

[T.K.Marletter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rule 281:
Question for the guys that hang and remove EOTs .....

Is there something that lets you know when an EOT battery needs charging? I assume it would not be good if an EOT ran out juice halfway through a run

If you're adding a marker, you always use a fresh battery but most of them give a readout of battery charge state when you push the button to arm them. If it does go dead (pretty common) then there are a bunch of rules that come into effect depending on the train and the territory.

281<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rule has it pretty well down-pat. asctually there is a hole that was made when the couple was made that is about 4-5 inches deep (most of the way through) and the eot has a peg on the bottom that it just slides into, then the Fred is hooked up, and the ones on CSX had 2 batteries, main and back up. Batteries are usually switched between every train.

[CPRailfan]

Thanks Tim smile.gif

[Hytec]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ROMAFERN:
If any of you guys have this article, could you scan it and send it to me? :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the article on how to build an N-Scale EOT. It is in the September/October 2000 issue of N-Scale Magazine, on page 38. Bob Kendall wrote the article.

The installation uses a standard 40' box car. It looks fairly simple so I'm sure it could be used for HO, S, and O Scales also. :cool:

It's a copyrighted article, so I can't copy it. :( However, you can call Hundman Publishing at 1-800-810-7660 and order a copy for $5.50, plus $2.50 for S&H.

Hank

[ 10 May 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]

[ 10 May 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]

[Peirce]

Thanks for the research, Hank. I am sure this idea can be used on most any scale.

[watash]

Here is an EOT used today, from an active employee.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/aareot2.jpg

[ 01 February 2002, 10:38: Message edited by: watash ]

[Peirce]

They look similar, but they are so different. Contrast this with the pictures of a much older "Fred" I posted on page one. That one had only two or three functions at the most.

(The link to those pictures was broken, but now repaired.)