Articulated Locomotives (HO Virginian 2-8-8-2) [Archive]

bnsf4354

June 15th, 2001, 05:43 AM

Well I actually don't particularly like the PRR, but I will have to admit that they had some of the most amazing locomotives ever seen. They also seem to be one of the companies that kept innovating with steam. Doesn't seem like most were great successes, but at least they tried! I just think those T1s looked really cool! To make you feel better I still don't think it looked as good as the streamlined 4-6-4 designed by Dreyfus.

As far as the Class A photo is concerned some photos from that time looked kinda artworky. I remember studying it in H.S. but that was a long time ago. The photo is a wartime shot and I am sure that some adjustment was made as to not give away the location.

Found a bunch of Russian and Chinese steam stuff last night that I might post later, but I think people are mostly wanting articulateds or 2-10-? on this post. :cool:

[ 14 June 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

bnsf4354

June 15th, 2001, 06:08 AM

Hey all the pages of the 2-8-8-2 thread I started on the HO folder are now working---can we link them with this current thread so they will be all together?

fitz

June 15th, 2001, 07:48 AM

Yeah, I was really surprised to be able to access them again and put a message over there on the HO board. I wouldn't be anxious to tie them together yet, as I don't think InfoPop has solved the problem yet. Thanks for putting all the great photos up again. ;)

Alan

June 15th, 2001, 01:32 PM

I don't care where you post them guys, as long as you tell me where they are :D Great stuff, keep them coming smile.gif

friscobob

June 15th, 2001, 08:24 PM

As long as you guys don't get too far off into HO steam, I don't mind the thread being here. Besides, I like all those awesome shots you guys are posting!
The prototype stuff can stay- and you can bring more... ;)

7600EM_1

June 16th, 2001, 05:42 PM

bnsf,
The picture of the colored EM-1 while in frieght mode I have personally, I bought prints of that exact picture in 8X10 size and I think it was 10X14 size as well. I'm not to sure of the biggest size of the picture but I got the 8X10 and the very next size up in prints for hanging on the wall, Of the shop and in my Layout room (the basement) for display! Nice man I love it keep it up and thanks for the B&O 2-8-8-4 link i'll be digging through that one! :D

fitz

June 17th, 2001, 08:19 AM

Guys, this is the 25th post on this thread. We should be heading for page 2 and "the big test" soon. I have to put this shot on here, taken in the UP Laramie yards many years ago. Talk about a collection of engines. There's a 2-8-8-0, a 4-12-2 and two 4-6-6-4's in it. :D http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/mmyard.jpg

bnsf4354

June 17th, 2001, 08:46 AM

OK, a few more for the weekend. The NYC is to make up for the PRR! http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/nyc/nyc-s5445do.jpg
http://members.lsol.net/mollyandmick/D227.JPG
http://www.mcs.net/~devanno/up9053.jpg
A DMIR 2-8-8-2 and a UP 2-12-2 finish up the group. :cool:

[ 17 June 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

fitz

June 17th, 2001, 09:29 AM

bnsf, you keep amazing me with the photos you come up with. The NYC 544X (Can't read last number but who cares, a Dreyfus streamlined Hudson) more than makes up for that P... still can't say it, photo. Duluth, Missabe and Iron Range had some heavy duty hardware, didn't they? Look a lot like the Great Northerns, and I don't have any of those pix. That shot of UP 4-12-2 is an old one--Got the UP shield on the tender. smile.gif

bnsf4354

June 17th, 2001, 11:34 AM

Thanks for the Kudos, I really enjoy trying post stuff you guys might like without getting too repettitive. I was just looking at the DMIR again---do you see the guy sitting on the front of the cowcatcher? I completely missed him the first time. Might be able to get some GNs next time, but if you want more DMIR that can be arranged too. Don't forget if you have particular favorite type or specific loco you want to see---just say the word!

Happy Fathers Day to all you dads out there---Thankfully I have a great one!

fitz

June 18th, 2001, 04:35 AM

For those of you who would like to operate one of these hummers, this is what the Engineer's side looked like in UP Challenger 3950. Where's Watash? I have one of the Fireman's side if anyone is interested. ;) http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/MM3950E.JPG

watash

June 18th, 2001, 12:58 PM

Fitz, The "Potty" photo is not re-touched, only the name was omitted to protect the guilty! I got the subscription for the railroad stories in it, don't you see? (I also added a front-on view back on page one showing the boiler hanging out over the front set of drivers for you). Here is the one I'm studying in the Potty photo:

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/co2882.jpg

Fitz, you might have mentioned that steam is up in the Challenger photo above, by the looks of the steam gauge, close to 200 looks like, and the Johnson bar is set dead on center. One thing some people may not know is how we could tell if the front set of drivers was slipping or not.

Notice the twin dials in front of the seat with white needles? Those are mechanical tachometers. As long as the needles both read the same, all wheels are pulling. If one or the other, (usually the front set) slipped, it would show a higher speed on the tach, and we could slack off a tad on the throttle to allow adhesion to grab the rails again. You could also "feel" the engine lurch when they grab, and you could feel it "sag" from loss of pull if they spun.

Sometimes in starting a long string, the front set (with less weight on them) would let go, and spin wildly if you really had the throttle "back in your lap". You got to get off it imediately, because the heat generated will cause the tires to expand enough to come loose from the spoke disk! Then you got more problems than you will be employed long enough to handle.

I have never seen a tire come loose, but I heard of it happening.

[ 18 June 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

fitz

June 19th, 2001, 03:07 AM

Yup, the 3950 was alive when that photo was taken. She's dead now. That looks like a C & O monster, Watash. What's with the four extra smokestacks on the cab? That one on the first page--interesting. How did the steam chest swivel like that? :eek:

[ 18 June 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

watash

June 19th, 2001, 06:01 AM

Fitz, those smoke stacks behind the ex-C&O (now RF&P 2-8-8-2 are on a building. On the other photo the boiler is fastened solid to the rear set of drivers. It is the front set that has swung to the right following the curved track, see? Only toy models are made to where both sets swivel so the toy engine will go around an 18" radius curve. Real 4-8-8-4's would go around a 20 degree curve, which is about a 54" radius in HO.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/me260.jpg

Here's tootin' at Cha'!! HA!

[ 19 June 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

fitz

June 19th, 2001, 06:54 AM

Watash, I just wanted to see if anyone would respond to the "smokestack" question. All those diesel guys who talk about "torpedo tube" Geeps haven't seen your photo above, with torpedo tubes on the boiler! Frisco 1522 has them, too. Hey, congratulations on your new moniker, Trainboard's Answer guy.

bnsf, I didn't notice that guy on the pilot of the DMIR engine. It's so huge he just sort of disappears.

I'm not sure if this belongs in this forum, maybe I should start a new one about "unusual" locos. This is UP FEF 815 with an experimental (sure looks like SP skyline) casing on top, for smoke lifting. Guess in the long run the elephant ears worked better, since that's what they used. ;) http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/mm815.jpg

watash

June 19th, 2001, 01:24 PM

Here is a shot of an old (1919) photo that has a notation pasted across the bottom that is an unusual engine. The Virginnian RR made this type famous as the Triplex, but the picture is of one made for the Erie RR in 1915. Note this one has a smoke stack at the rear of the tender to exhaust the tender's cylinders. The tender's frame also supported the cylinders and was extra heavy to gain traction.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/erie28882.jpg

Then we can also go to another unusual engine. It is a tank type switcher. Water was carried in a tank built over and around the boiler which acted somewhat like a pre-heater. Coal was hauled in a tiny tender pulled behind. This photo is borrowed from a friend who took it while on vacation.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/0401.jpg

Somewhere years ago, one of the most unusual photos I have seen was a large articulated that had been pushed onto a big turntable by an 0-4-0 with the slope back tender. Both were on the table being turned, so the little 0-4-0 could push the big one into the roundhouse stall. If anyone has a copy of that, please post it for us!

bnsf4354

June 19th, 2001, 09:20 PM

Here a few more for today. Most are GNs.

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00011876/00011889.jpg

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00011876/00011884.jpg

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00012001/00012006.jpg

[ 19 June 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

fitz

June 20th, 2001, 02:47 AM

bnsf, now those are brutish looking. I didn't realize GN was into Belpaire firebox/boiler systems.
Watash that's no front end throttle on that rig. What vintage is it? :confused:

Gregg Mahlkov

June 20th, 2001, 07:46 AM

Fitz, like Pennsy, GN was into Belpaire fireboxes almost to the end, even the S1 4-8-4's had Belpaire fireboxes. AFAIK, only the Mountains, the USRA MIkes, and the S2 Northerns did not have Belpaires, everything else, from 0-6-0 to 2-8-8-2, did.

watash

June 20th, 2001, 09:59 PM

Fitz, that is a 1902 Illinois Central 4-6-0. Wood cab and all. It had the cam driven valve gear. The throttle was maounted horizontally as you can see my left hand on it. (Johnson bar in my right.) The operating rod for the throttle ran just along side the boiler to the belcrank butterfly on the right hand side of the steam dome. Pretty stiff too. She was a runner though, easily topped 100mph in her day with those 6 foot drivers! That is how Cayce Jones got killed, running one like her wide open!

7600EM_1

June 21st, 2001, 06:49 PM

Watash,
You should've marked that picture of you in the 4-6-0 "Casey Jones at it again" HE! :D Running a loco topping off over 100 MPH.. WOW But I know they would run that fast the drivers made that possible. At 6 feet in diameter that had a hellofa revolution on the boost to get the loco running and at a decent amount of speed....

bnsf4354

June 22nd, 2001, 03:00 AM

Here are my few for today. Can someone tell me what is up with the smoke box on the 2-8-4?? Never seen anything like that before!!! A Cabforward early version included because most never see that version.
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00015626/00015654.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00015501/00015617.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00015751/00015856.jpg :D

Alan

June 22nd, 2001, 04:21 AM

If memory serves me correctly, I think it is a "Coffin" feed water heater.

Gregg Mahlkov

June 22nd, 2001, 07:55 AM

Alan is right, that is a Coffin feedwater heater on the front of the ex-Boston & Maine 2-8-4. it is unusual because most Coffin feedwater heaters were disguised by extending the smokebox front. CB&Q used these but extended the smokebox front. When the war in Europe wound down B&M had surplus power so its 2-8-4's were sold to SP and ATSF to help move tonnage for the Pacific Theater of WW II. :cool:

fitz

June 22nd, 2001, 08:48 AM

Greg, weren't the Coffin heaters usually installed inside the smokebox, not as a visor as on that photo? I guess that then begs the question were Coffins "open" or "closed" heaters? I would really like to see a comparison of the technical info and physical installations among Coffin, Elesco and Worthington feedwater heater systems.
bnsf, two of those pix are just red X's on my system. Anyone else report that? :(

bnsf4354

June 22nd, 2001, 10:45 AM

It's 1am eastern time and all the photos are showing up for me fine. Not sure why you are having difficulty. :confused:

7600EM_1

June 22nd, 2001, 10:57 AM

Its 1 AM here also and the pictures are showing up fine too... BNSF where you located i'm on the east coast or did you post them on Wednesday night at 1 AM ???? I'm 1 AM on Thursday night.. :D HA!!

bnsf4354

June 22nd, 2001, 10:48 PM

I am in the same time zone as you. Just a state or two south of you! Too close to DC if you ask me.!

Gregg Mahlkov

June 23rd, 2001, 12:21 AM

Fitz, I believe the Coffin feedwater heater was very similar to the Elesco system except that the heat exchanger was of a different shape - more like a "saddle" than the "tank" of the Elesco. Yes, most of them were inside the smokebox, which was done by extending the front of the smokebox, like CB&Q did. I believe these were "closed" systems, where the steam did not mix with the feedwater. Funny, nothing else on the B&M looked anything like these Berkshires, either. ;)

bnsf4354

June 23rd, 2001, 01:42 AM

I am really enjoying this post thread---I keep learning about these incredible machines!

Since I model in HO does anyone know anything about Rivarossi making a GRAY Big Boy! Yes, a Big Boy, not a Challenger. I saw one today on display and was told it was factory direct. The whole thing is gray with the smokebox being black. I have never seen anything like that before. So my questions are:

1. Did Riv really make such a version for sale to the public.
2. Did UP ever have such a thing in real life. I know that the Challenger had a greyhound scheme pulling the Portland Rose from time to time and probably pulled other passenger trains in this color, but a Big Boy? Never heard of it.

I await your extremely knowledgeable responses as always. :confused:

7600EM_1

June 23rd, 2001, 05:11 AM

BNSF,
Rivarossi has never made any Big Boys gray that I can relate to. I do know that Rivarossi made an all gold colored Big Boy, and the all black Big Boy and then the all black with graphite on the ash pan (near and below the cab), and on the smoke box and boiler front. I can't say that I ever heard of Rivarossi making a UP gray Big Boy, It don't show any model numbers in my parts catalog for a all gray boiler or drive train frame for a Riv Big Boy.... :D I had to look that up to make sure I was thinking correctly... :D But I was and they didn't..... :D

As for a real one..........HEY WATASH, we need some help on this one man... Your the guy to answer if UP had a "Greyhound" all gray Big Boy...... :D Call upon Watash time guys.... HA! :D

So BNSF, your in MD, WV, or VA ???

[ 22 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

bnsf4354

June 23rd, 2001, 06:17 AM

EM1: The engine number is 4002. I checked and it is factory made that way. It doesn't have the usual two-tone Greyhound striping like the FEFs or the Challengers though. It is a newer version because the engine is in the boiler. I am going to try and get the part #s on Monday off the box. They want about $225 for the thing. I am tempted, but really don't want something that is so far off from reality. I am thinking about writing Rivarossi and seeing if they can shed any light on the whole thing. If it is a very uncommon thing I might just get it to go with my other Big Boy for display purposes. I was hoping that someone had heard of a few of these things being out there. Still wonder about a real one in that scheme though.

:rolleyes:

fitz

June 23rd, 2001, 07:10 AM

John and bnsf, I can't answer your questions about modeling, as I am strictly a 12 inch to the foot guy. However, go back to the first post on this thread--it's a picture of the UP Big Boy 4002 and I don't see any grey. I see a smokebox rubbed with graphite. I seriously doubt that UP ever painted a Big Boy grey.
BNSF all three of your photos back on that page are red X on my machine. Glad you're enjoying all this stuff.
Gregg, I'm sorry I have been misspelling your name, I have a number of friends named Greg with one trailing truck G. ;)

bnsf4354

June 23rd, 2001, 08:24 AM

I just checked the photos and they are showing up for me so I don't know why you are having trouble. As far as a gray engine goes I know that some challengers and FEFs were painted gray for some of their lives and then painted black later. Maybe a Big Boy too, but I suspect that such a thing didn't exist in real life. Now I have to find out why Riv did one this way. :mad:

7600EM_1

June 23rd, 2001, 02:51 PM

BNSF,
Sounds like someone done a custom job on that loco by Rivarossi!!!!! It does not have a parts number for a boiler so.. That tells me that it had to have been custom painted...... :D Thier is no parts number for one so that says almost has to be that it was custom painted and the guy that has it doesn't know it was done like that.... Find out where he got it and let us know i'll see what I can come up with.... :D

watash

June 23rd, 2001, 06:08 PM

I have no source that UP ever painted a grey BigBoy. Maybe it is like the metalic grey "Scale" Lionel that came out in 1937. No one had ever heard of a grey or silver steam engine, so my dad was not happy when it arrived. We were both thrilled with all the valve gearotion, so we kept it. If you get the BigBoy, you might keep it. My Lionel engine is worth around 2K now I understand. ;)

7600EM_1

June 24th, 2001, 03:51 AM

Guys,
I didn't think UP painted any Big Boys gray or silver.... :D Thank you Watash....... I just couldn't see a Big Boy gray...... HA!!!! It was a frieght brute so.... Enough said????? :D

bnsf4354

June 24th, 2001, 07:49 AM

Here is another big steamer from UP. http://colorado.railfan.net/Arts_stuff/up9000bld.jpg

fitz

June 24th, 2001, 08:35 AM

aaaahh, the 9000. I have a lot of photos of her residing in the Pomona Fairgrounds. Note the gap between the first and second set of drivers, that's where the third cylinder drive connects. The third cylinder is between the other two, and connected by Gresley valve gear up across the pilot. The axle on the second set of drivers has a big crank on it. The normal cylinders are driving the third set of drivers. I never heard one of these three-cylinders run. The exhaust must have been interesting. ;)

watash

June 24th, 2001, 11:52 AM

Fitz,when they cracked the throttle on a big twelve, she sounded just like a shay starting out, only much more throaty. They could run like a rabbit across the Kansas prairie. There were many times we would sit on my uncle's front porch in the winter and watch one of those push a wedge type snow plow at around sixty miles an hour. Sometimes faster, throwing a stream of snow off both sides about a 100 feet! Dad used to race them in his new 1936 Chevy until we got all the way up to a mile a minute, then he had to slow down. The Chevy hot water 6 still had the dip oiler cups on the piston rods. Of course I was waving like mad and the engineer would toot the whistle at me and the fireman waved back! It was all a big thrill when I was six. "Those were the days!" :D

bnsf4354

June 25th, 2001, 08:13 AM

A couple more in color this time!
http://www.ebpm.com/rr/bigpix/rrsteam042b.jpg
http://www.ebpm.com/rr/bigpix/rrsteam046b.jpg

Wish more were like this. BTW if anyone has any good photos of a FEF-3 in UP's Gray scheme that are in color I would dearly love to see them. I have seen most that are on the web, but none are really great! :D

fitz

June 25th, 2001, 09:55 AM

Watash, sounded like a Shay, eh? I'll bet. Man, wish I could have heard one. BNSF, I finally got to see those pix from last page, and went looking for my SP stuff about cab forwards. They started buying them many years before most people know. The number on that one you posted, was it 4001? If so, the one in the Cal state museum is 4294. Does that mean SP built 294 or more? I don't know.
Coffin heaters--I'll bet old 9000 had one. How else could the smokebox hang out so far? This one built into the smokebox. I have pix of 844 in greyhound paint at Railfair '91 but they aren't very good.
And BNSF, that looks like a mighty DMIR engine. Nothing looked bigger or more powerful. :eek:

[ 25 June 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

Alan

June 25th, 2001, 02:13 PM

Talking of three cylinders and Gresley valve gear, most of the express passenger locomotives on the east coast main line, close to where I live, were Gresley designed machines with just such an arrangement.

They sounded really smooth climbing up to Stoke summit (where one achieved the world speed record for steam - but going downhill!)

The only problem with the Gresley conjugated gear was if maintenance was not top-notch, and the numerous pins in the links got worn, the gear would become sloppy, and the centre cylinder valve would over-run, making it work harder than the outside ones, which gave them a syncopated rhythm :D

I seem to remember that the UP 9000's had the gear rebuilt, so that two sets of Walschearts gear were on one side of the locomotive, and one on the other, with the pumps moved from the front to the side to balance the weight.

bnsf4354

June 25th, 2001, 11:07 PM

Fitz---according to my source (The Steam Locomotive--A Century of North American Classics by Jim Boyd), as of 1944 there were 195 cab forwards in SP service with an additional twelve with the cab in the traditional placement. The 195 were from Baldwin between 1928 and 1944 and the 12 were from Lima in 1939. Other than that I have no other info about the Cab Forwards in SP service. Wonder where they hid the other 100 or if there was something in between those numbers?

Yes that other photo was of a DMIR--man they looked tough!

Gregg Mahlkov

June 26th, 2001, 01:46 AM

The key to the missing "cab forwards" lies in your "12 with the cab in the conventional location", as SP had 1000's of locomotives with the "cab in the conventional location". The discussion is about 4-8-8-2's or 2-8-8-4's only, as the 12 AC-9's were indeed conventional, and coal burning, 2-8-8-4's, rather than 4-8-8-2's. BUT, not all SP cab forwards were 4-8-8-2's, some were 2-8-8-2's and some were 4-6-6-2's (which were AM, for Articulated Mogul, not AC, for Articulated Consolidation). I think you will find the "missing' cab forwards were of the other two wheel arrangements. :cool:

bnsf4354

June 26th, 2001, 03:29 AM

That sounds like the right answer! I just checked some things out concerning the cab forwards and indeed found that the other two wheel arrangements appear to make up for the missing numbers. You guys are great!

fitz

June 26th, 2001, 06:06 AM

An old book by Edwin Alexander shows SP's first Mallet, no. 4000, 2-8-8-2, built by Baldwin in 1909 with conventional cab location. He Then has a description of the first cab forward, type AC-1, supposedly built in 1910. The accompanying photo, however, is of a type AC-4, 4-8-8-2, No. 4102. It also states that the first 15 were compounds, converted to single expansion starting in 1927, and that SP had over 200 AC's. My own knowledge of SP steam is limited. As Gregg pointed out they went up to Class AC-9. Lots of locos. smile.gif

bnsf4354

June 26th, 2001, 10:53 AM

Ok, here are some more for you.

http://www.pe.net/~val/nxw602.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/det/4a20000/4a24000/4a24200/4a24203r.jpg

I just had to put the NW FEF in because it looked soooo good.

Now I found you all the 2-8-8-8-2s before so I had to follow that up with the 2-10-10-2. That even has a articulated boiler? :eek:

[ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

June 26th, 2001, 03:38 PM

BNSF,
The 2-10-10-2 was boiler articulation, but was very troublesome to the railroad. It sprung leaks and all kinds of other things for Santa Fe. Anything that went wrong with it it was a good bet it happened at the boiler articulation......I mean I bet it was a monster when it wasn't in the shops being repaired but its size was unreal... The only thing I have against it was the fact of the "Turtle" type tender on it. I just didn't like that for some reason I guess i'm used to my Vanderbuilt B&O tenders and the Square welded tenders..... :D

7600EM_1

June 26th, 2001, 03:51 PM

Well since I know how to post now... Heres 1 of my favorites of all time railroading including model railroading........ :D http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo675s.jpg http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/steam/us/bo/pics/675b.jpg

Ok guys the 2 pictures above are of the exact same loco in the exact location.... Isn't the head on picture mean looking??? :D Anyway the first picture is the picture that I look at everytime I get on my computer I set it as wall paper on my desktop..HA! Couldn't have picked a better picture... :D

[ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 26th, 2001, 04:28 PM

Guys, Check this monster out!! Its a B&O EL-3 2-8-8-0, Look at the tender on him.. Kinda strange but, would make a nice loco to model!!! :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7120s.jpg

7600EM_1

June 26th, 2001, 05:53 PM

Ok guys, I know I shouldn't post this but.. I am.. Its my 4rd favorite loco besides the B&O EM-1 Yellowstones 2-8-8-4's, and the B&O EL-? class, any of the 2-8-8-0's, and the Western Maryland, M-2 Challengers 4-6-6-4's, but Also another Western Maryland classic.. yes you guessed it. The Western Maryland 3 truck Shay #6.... Heres a picture of it in I think it was said to be 1980!

I know its not an articulated loco, but hey its a 3 truck, so.. articulated Shay???? HA! I just had to guys... :D Ok it would post... so i'll come back and retry alittle later.....

[ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 26th, 2001, 06:05 PM

guys,
Let me know if my pictures are showing up so I know i'm doing the post right..... :D I think that last one I posted ...The WM #6 Shay didn't post.....So time will tell I guess.. :D

bnsf4354

June 27th, 2001, 12:10 AM

Only the shay isn't showing up. Sometimes it doesn't work right because the site is not online or because of the way it has been set up on the webpage. I had that problem in my last post and had to delete the whole picture description. I like that EM1--to bad that pole wanted a cameo.

Keep 'em coming!

watash

June 27th, 2001, 12:38 AM

John, re-check your code for the shay post. Check each character in the string, you may have inadvertantly put a space in, or the wrong letter etc. It has to be exactly correct to work. Keep in mind, always use the shortest name possible, all lower case, and do not use _-+=\#%^*(){}| in the name, they cause trouble. If you have saved the photo as: Name.jpg, then typed: name.jpg in your posting code, it wont work either. Most of the time if you named a photo: em1_7600.jpg, it is the _ that doesn't work, re-name the photo to: em17600.jpg and it will work. It takes time to learn. :D

fitz

June 27th, 2001, 02:41 AM

bnsf, neat shot of the J on the turntable. After the NYC Dreyfus Hudsons, my favorite streamlined steamer, and Home grown by the N&W to boot.
John, your photos are showing up, except for the Shay as Watash said. Good for you for learning to post. The more pictures the merrier. Too bad that lady had to get right in front of your side view of the EM-1. They are everywhere, aren't they? smile.gif

Alan

June 27th, 2001, 02:58 AM

John, the B & O 675 is BEAUTIFUL!!!!! One of my favourite types smile.gif Great to see it in colour - even if it is black :D

Gregg Mahlkov

June 27th, 2001, 04:17 AM

Fitz, back to the cab forwards - Classes AC-1 through AC-3 were 2-8-8-2'S. They went beyond the conventional AC-9's too. There were AC-10, 11, and 12 cab forward 4-8-8-2's. smile.gif :cool:

7600EM_1

June 27th, 2001, 05:07 AM

Ok guys,
Here it is again.. The Western Maryland #6 Shay. At its best in 1980...And still at work!!!! :D

Alan, you like the yellowstones huh??? Makes alot of us... :D I love that preticular loco!!! Specially the B&O's EM-1's!!!!!! But heres that picture of the Shay..... Dangit!!! It won't let me post that picture!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

So I went and got another Western Maryland #6 Shay picture...Lets see if it will post this time around...... :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm6s.jpg

[ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 27th, 2001, 05:22 AM

Their it is..ABOUT TIME!!! Anyway thats a picture from 1950... The loco itself was built in 1945 by Lima.....The last and the biggest of the Shay loco made....... :D Thats my 4th favorite loco, in a class of its own being its not a regular rod loco.... :D Its hugh and what a sight to see run at Cass WV........I had a friend to go to Cass and ride on a train that it pulled up a (Ithink) 9% grade..... He Video'd it for me and I can watch that monsterous thing do its job and succeed!!! :D I have to get one just to have tho for the record of my HO scale collection.. I have 2 Shays at the moment, one brass (I got lucky on what I payed), and a MDC "Roundhouse" 3 truck Shay..... :D

Did the 2-8-8-0 EL-3 picture come up on screen??? I hope Watash got a good look at the Vanderbuilt tender coupled to that thing!!!!! 3 Trucks on it... I am still trying to think how to make a Rivarossi tender like that.. With 3, two axle, 4 wheel trucks.... It would be an eye catcher for sure on a HO scale running model.... :D

Also did the 675 EM-1 head on view show up ???? Now thats a monster picture of a HUGH loco from the front...Up close and personal... :D

[ 27 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:04 AM

http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/photos/engineterminals/ks015.shtml

Hope this works! If not then I don't know waht will!!

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:08 AM

Ok, it seems that the other photo didn't show. I'll give it another try and if it doesnt work I give up!

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4004.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:09 AM

Ok cool it works! I'll try another!!

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4015.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:15 AM

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4016.jpg

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4017a.jpg

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4019b.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:20 AM

And finally here's a shot inside the cab of one of these monsters'! It's the Big Boy 4012 near Scranton, PA, I got this off the internet while cruising it. Enjoy!! If you want some more Big Boy pics please feel free to shout out and say "YES!"!

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/4019b.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 08:24 AM

Oops!! Darn these buttons, I musta hit the wrong thing! Try again!! Here's the cab shot (I hope)!

http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/4012/full%20pictures/4012-backhead-fireman-web.jpg

bnsf4354

June 27th, 2001, 11:35 AM

Since we are on Big Boys I will add one of my absolute favorites! Present and future meet with the gorgeous station as a backdrop! The wonderful clean yellow of the Turbine contrasted with the grimey blacks of the Big Boy and all its steam wafting into the air tells a story rather than just being a picture in time. I just love it! http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/historical-pictures/full-pictures/4011-holding.jpg

My personal favorite engines are:
1. Big Boy
2. Challenger
3. Allegheny
4. Class A (or Appalachian as I call them)
5. 2-8-8-4s notably EM1s and DMIRs
6. Cab forwards AC 11/12s
7. 2-8-8-2s NW and ATSFs
I figure the best one up there was the Challenger because of its versatility as either fast freight or passenger motive power. I imagine the 2-8-8-4s and Class A were next on the list. Just my two cents after reading tons about these engines. I know many will have a different view of things and I encourage it. :D

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 27th, 2001, 12:40 PM

In this photo you can see a rather odd locomotive, the "Dwight D. Eisenhower", and if you look on the extreme right you'll notice U.P. Big Boy 4017 eyeing for a photo op.

http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/gb/steam/LNER/A4/60008_FullSide.JPG

7600EM_1

June 27th, 2001, 08:43 PM

Will,
Nice pictures man.. thats some HUGH freight movers.... WOW :D But as you said the Challenger probably is the best of them you listed being it was able to do it all...... The Big Boys were frieght movers for high speed frieght, and the Yellowstones (EM-1's and DMIR's) were slow heavy lugger pulling loco's... They were all built for different jobs by the different railroads.... High speed frieght, slow tonage pullers, and the Challenger alittle of everything...... :D The 2-8-8-2's and the Allegheny were slow tonage movers as well..... :D

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 28th, 2001, 12:10 AM

Thanks John! Here's a pic of the Challenger, I have yet to look for pictures of the Allegheny.

http://decker.colorado.edu/matsuo/images/3985/0007D10.jpg

7600EM_1

June 28th, 2001, 03:07 AM

Heres one from Baldwin, a 2-6-6-2. A rare class for the B&O being the large wheel diameter, but was well liked by its crews.... Just as the B&O's KB-1, the 2-6-6-4's bought from Seaboard in 1947.....

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo-s7400.jpg

Then we have another rare loco.... a 4-4-4, "The Lady" as it was called by B&O trainmen... on the cab it says "Lady Baltimore" What a beauty!! :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1bs.jpg

[ 27 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 28th, 2001, 03:33 AM

And for today.....
One of the most colorfull loco's I've seen in the past it was just a regular "Reading" 4-8-4, but now we have a classic... "Chessie Steam Special" 4-8-4, T-1 #2101........... Just a beautifull loco, that I am modeling....... I just can't seem to find a picture to be trully honest if its got black on it or if that dark color is blue...... Anyone know for sure or seen this loco to say if the dark color is black or if its blue???? Heres a picture to look at......

http://www.trainweb.org/chessiephotos/photos/css/css01.jpg

fitz

June 28th, 2001, 04:52 AM

We are going to set a record for the longest thread ever on Trainboard. Surely it will tax that Beta software.
Gregg, thanks for the summary of the SP AC units. John, that Shay file is "ugly" and when I say that I mean it is too big (probably hundreds of KB) and therefore takes too long to load. Just letting you know, as someone once let me know when I started posting photos. The subject matter and the intent is just fine. And The B&O "Lady"--do you know what the diameter of the drivers were? They look enormous. I don't think Alan would agree that the Dwight D. Eisenhower is an odd looking loco, eh, Alan?
Glad you kids are enjoying this thread. Sure wish we could all go back and see these beauties run again.
Here's a challenge for you. Find a photo of B&O type DD-1 0-6-6-0, as that is the engine that Watash refers to as "Old Maude." :D

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 28th, 2001, 06:13 AM

Well to me, the Dwight D. Eisenhower is kinda odd in a way, but it's still a train and thats a fact! As long as it runs on rails, chuffs along blowing steam and smoke then it's very much a "beast of burden".

watash

June 28th, 2001, 10:22 AM

UPBigBoy, I have to agree with you, but you see the Dwight D. E. engine is a British engine named in honor of Gen. Eisenhower for assisting them to win the War and defeat Hitler.

My altime favorite engine is the AC-9 Yellowstone with the streamlining hood over the domes, simply because my dad used to race them across the western plains. Believe me they could fly! I have never found a good side view of one yet. Here is an AC-9:

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/ac9sp3800.jpg

John, I have an erection diagram of the AT&SF 2-10-10-2 #3000 made 9-30-1913 by my Uncle J.T.Wilson, and the one pictured is not a flexible boilered one. It was made from two 2-10-2's welded into one long boiler. The two 'carry-over pipes' you see on the top were supposed to carry steam and hot air from one boiler to the front one. J.T. could not convince the powers that be, that unless they allowed him yo increase the fire box, the engine could not generate enough steam to be of use. The engines worked, but he was correct, and all ten engines were re-converted back to 2-10-2's. There were some that did have a bellows joint to allow the boilers to bend, but like you said, they all developed leaks, and one blew up.

Fitz, I posted a photo of "Old Maude" a long time ago, when Art was going to sic "Goliath" on me! Remember?

[ 28 June 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

fitz

June 28th, 2001, 10:41 AM

Gee I don't remember seeing a picture of Old Maude on here, but then I may be having another Senior Moment, Watash. I didn't want to bring up what you did about the articulated boiler, but now that it has surfaced, it was the ATSF 3300 series. Can't believe they actually made what amounted to an "accordian" in the boiler, and I can imagine what kind of leaks and other problems developed. tongue.gif

watash

June 28th, 2001, 11:15 AM

Yeah Fitz, it was so bad that some cartoons came out about the accordianed boilers. One my dad had for a long time was showing a mallet with two guys standing back at the cab. One had both fists over the other guys' head and shouting,"I told you you have to start with both throttles! The front engine had gone about 40 feet foreward while the rear engine was still in place, and the sccordion joint was streatched between and sagged to the ground!

Of course back in those days everyone knew the front engine was the articulated set of drivers, which would have merely run out from under the boiler, but the funny thing was the front boiler, drivers and all had go foreward. HA!

In later years there was one about the trucks under a diesel being backwards, and it had pulled the diesel apart in the middle when they tried to move it. The broken parts were laying down on the track, and one guy was reaming the other about wiring it backwards. HA!

bnsf4354

June 28th, 2001, 10:27 PM

Ok Watash, you asked for it! Two 2-8-8-4s on with a full side view and the other about 3/4 view. Don't have them in color though. I have about five more if you are interested.

So I must assume that nobody has any good 3/4 or full side shots of a color FEF-3 in gray? Come on guys somebody has one. Please post one for me. :D http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00015626/00015645.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00015626/00015646.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 28th, 2001, 11:19 PM

Here's one for ya!

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_np5005.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 28th, 2001, 11:25 PM

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sp4250.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_dmir224.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_vgn802.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_erie.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_prr5541.jpg

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 12:33 AM

Hey guys,
Fitz, I'll come up with an "Old Maude" picture, I know of a slight few.... Let me find them and i'll post them all if you want and if I can find them all....... :D

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 12:48 AM

Sorry guys, I got the LL-1's confused with the DD-1, LL-1's were 0-8-8-0's and the DD-1 was a 0-6-6-0. I seen all the 0-8-8-0 pictures and thought they were a 0-6-6-0! Anyway I have one thats a rareity to switchers! 2 of the biggest non articulated steam switchers in the USA.... Heres one of the 2......

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo950s.jpg

The 2 of them are numbered 950 and 951 by the B&O....... HUGH monster switchers.. And best of all (to me) they are B&O!! :D

:mad: at myself for confusing the LL-1's with the DD-1.. What a dumb mistake!!!

And heres the other picture of the 2 HUGH non articulated steam switchers...... They are both 0-10-0's!!!! ENJOY....

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo-s951o.jpg

[ 28 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

fitz

June 29th, 2001, 03:54 AM

John, sorry to hear of your friend's passing. That second AC-9 shot really shows the articulation and the front set of drivers well. This is as good a shot as I have of FEF 844 (and throw in the 3985) taken at Sacramento Railfair 1991. I tried to lighten it a little. She was two tone grey, but the lighting is poor. :( http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/3985-844.jpg
Wow, over 100 messages on this thread!

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 04:06 AM

Fits,
The driver diameter on the "Lady Baltimore" 4-4-4, were 84 inch diameter! Biguns! She was a runner, said by the B&O's crew men that engineered it..... I think I seen some were it run well over 100 MPH with a full passenger trailing her!!! As for her big brother the "Lord Baltimore" he was a 4-6-4, Hudson only a few of this type the B&O owed being they wanted to trial test the hudson type loco and were sucessfull but never got to live out their ownership till the diesels took over! NASTY! I hate the things I wish the diesel wouldn't be around. Steam to me is still KING! HA! :D I'll post a picture of the "Lord Baltimore" for everyone to look at as well as the "Lady Baltimore" I posted..... :D

Alan

June 29th, 2001, 04:13 AM

:eek: Dwight D. Eisenhower an odd-looking locomotive??? :eek: Just watch your language, that is a sister of the world speed record holder for steam traction! Much more graceful than that wierd looking B & O 4-4-4. :D

Seriously, there are some awesome photographs in this topic, and I thank one and all for giving us the oppotunity to view them. I really wish I could have seen big US steam in action. Oh well . . .

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 04:13 AM

ok guys, the big brother to the "Lady Baltimore" 4-4-4, this is a Hudson, 4-6-4, "Lord Baltimore.... :D

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo-s2.jpg

fitz

June 29th, 2001, 05:09 AM

Alan, although the B&O locos are quite "Anglicized" they don't come close to the Dwight D. Eisenhower. Fallen flags--Have a look at the lineup of cars behind UPBIGBOY's DMIR 2-8-8-4. Wow! Erie, Great Northern, and a whole string of yellow Pacific Fruit Express reefers! :eek:

bnsf4354

June 29th, 2001, 09:18 AM

Fitz: At least I didn't post that last T1 from the PRR--I can say it, you don't have to. :D

Thanks for the gray FEF. If anyone else has a side shot I would sure like to see it. It is the steamer that started me in the hobby. I am trying to get to see as many color photos as possible of it. My wife bought me one from Rivarossi for my B-day a few years ago. I am lucky to have a wife who knows and appreciates quality! She has already reserved me the Allegheny at the local hobby shop! I can't wait!

What was the numbers of Watash's Old Maude switchers? THat way I can find one without falling asleep looking through all the webpages etc....! tongue.gif

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 12:12 PM

BNSF,
The 0-6-6-0 "Old Maude" was class "O" (old class), and I believe the first number to it was #2400, and then in 1916 was renumbered to #7000, class DD-1......... :D

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 29th, 2001, 12:16 PM

Guys (specially Fitz),
You won't catch me posting a PRR anything! I'm a B&O buff, and I still hold a grudge!! B&O and PRR were bitter rivals in their time so.... HA! :D

B&O to me is both of the following.....

B&O
Baltimore And Ohio,

B&O
Best And Oldest......HA! :D

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 29th, 2001, 01:36 PM

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_up9000.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sp4449.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sp4449b.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_ln4472.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_ls_wap.jpg

UnionPacificBigBoy

June 29th, 2001, 01:44 PM

Here's some for you John!

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo_Lafayete.jpg

Below is the #1 engine stationed at Baltimore, MD

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1as.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo_jh.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo_tt.jpg

watash

June 29th, 2001, 02:53 PM

OK Guys, here is a photo I have been told was my Grandfather Wilson in the Knickerbocker pants, as they were getting ready to take the engine to the B&O. This photo has been re-printed lots of times, and was even on a calander back just before the War. Grandmother sold the negative years ago along with some others to the people who made the calander. This was about 1908 I think, of an 0-6-6-0 compound Mallet type engine later called "Old Maude". Several books have used this or a similar photo, all by different people. At the time this photo was taken there were about five photographers there. Grandma was the only woman.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/oldmaude.jpg

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

bnsf4354

June 30th, 2001, 12:24 AM

Well, didn't find Old Maude, but I did find the 0-8-8-0s!!! Does that count?
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002535.jpg :confused:

bnsf4354

June 30th, 2001, 12:30 AM

Ok, here is the question for today.:

1) If photo #1 is Lady Baltimore
2) And photo #2 is Lord Baltimore
3) Than which Baltimore is photo #3? Big Baby Baltimore?
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002551.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002552.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002521.jpg

Anyone know about that? Clearly is the biggest Baltimore of the three!!! :D

Fitz, sorry about that P shield in the background! Couldn't take it out of the photo tongue.gif

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

June 30th, 2001, 01:57 AM

BNSF,
That last picture is of the "George H. Emerson" It looks to be a 4-8-4 but its actually a 4-4-4-4. Its called a Duplex like the PRR had but, isn't made the same way PRR's was. It's rear set of cylinders are put in the back to acomadate space to shorten the wheel base. It was an experimental loco by the B&O.... :D

Gregg Mahlkov

June 30th, 2001, 03:43 AM

The "Lady", "Lord", and "George" were just three of the experimental "water tube firebox" locomotives built by the B&O in the 1930's. Loree of the D&H experminented with these as well. Note the "hump" at the beginning of the firebox and the fact that the bottom is flat rather that sloped as conventional fierboxes are. You "net" explorers see if you can find the KK-1 2-6-6-2 and the T-1 4-8-2 B&O built with the water tube firebox posted somewhere. The D&H engine was a 4-8-0, but also had four cylinders like the "George Emerson". :cool: :rolleyes:

fitz

June 30th, 2001, 04:43 AM

Gregg, I thought I knew a lot about steam, but have never read or had anyone explain water tube fireboxes. Can you explain them without going into textbook detail? Thanks. :cool:

7600EM_1

June 30th, 2001, 04:58 AM

Gregg,
I have access to the KK-1, 2-6-6-2's also the T-1's 4-8-2 let me see what I can find on them...... :D

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 30th, 2001, 05:05 AM

Gregg,
Heres one of the 3 pictures of the KK-1, 2-6-6-2.... ENJOY..... :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7400sa.jpg

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo-s7400.jpg

[ 29 June 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

June 30th, 2001, 05:38 AM

And the only B&O T-1 4-8-2 that I can get online...... :D

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002520.jpg

ENJOY! :D

7600EM_1

June 30th, 2001, 11:09 AM

UP Big Boy,
Nice picture of the B&O's "Layfette" <-- I messed up in the spelling on that one i'm sure, but I hope it gets the name of the picture i'm trying to bring across. Anyway thats a great picture of that one being it was the first loco of the B&O to be a horizontal boiler, instead of the vertical boilers that liked. B&O hesitated on going from the vertical boiler to the horizontal boilers for some reason... Anyway that picture in general has to be a "Relived version" of that loco tho being in those days I seriously doubt that their was such a thing called color pictures! HA! :D A excusion of some sort I imagine.. Thinking of it that loco if i'm not mistaken is in the B&O Mt. Clare Museum, so i'm sure its a relived picture of the original.

Believe it or not the picture of the "Tom Thumb" isn't the real one! Thats an operating replica!!!! Noone else thought to preserve the original Tom Thumb. To bad they didn't! It would be the oldest loco in America if they had! :D

Hytec

June 30th, 2001, 06:16 PM

Were the two engines of the George H. Emerson coupled by an internal crank system similar to the French steam experiments? Or were they independent like the Pennsy T-1? The T-1 was noted for being very slippery, especially when starting on wet rail. The French solved that by connecting the two engines.
Hank

Gregg Mahlkov

June 30th, 2001, 08:21 PM

Fitz - it's been a LONG time, but as I recall, the water tube firebox, rather than having a crown sheet and staybolts had an arrangement of tubes that looked like a backbone and ribs. There was a large (maybe 1 ft. diameter) horizontal tube at the apex, with U shaped curved vertical tubes connected to it. It was more efficient at generating steam than a conventional firebox, but the combination of heat and vibration caused maintenance nightmares. As engineers of many disciplines have discovered, the railroad is a difficult and unforgiving environment. ;)

fitz

July 1st, 2001, 04:13 AM

Gregg, thanks. It sounds like a worse maintenance nightmare than the staybolts. How was it structurally attached?
Everyone on this thread interested in articulateds might want to go take a look at the New York Central forum. I borrowed a picture from a man named David Stephenson who has put together what he thinks the NY Central would have built to pull a 100 car freight, had steam continued to develop. It's beautiful. Topic is "What might have been." :eek:

bnsf4354

July 1st, 2001, 10:11 AM

How about a few more. The 4-12-2 is for Watash since he likes them new looking. The 4-8-4 I put in because of the unusual smoke clear device along the top of the boiler. The 2-8-8-2 is here just to prove that UP had them.

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00016876/00016999.jpg :cool:
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00017501/00017590.jpg

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00017251/00017327.jpg

[ 01 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

July 1st, 2001, 12:20 PM

BNSF,
Nice pictures man.. KEEP 'em comming!!! :D

Alan

July 1st, 2001, 02:45 PM

Regarding water-tube boilers, weren't they widely used in ships?

Hytec

July 1st, 2001, 07:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alan:
Regarding water-tube boilers, weren't they widely used in ships?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they were, and still are used on most fossil-fueled steam powered ships. Current technology allows for more than 50,000 shaft horsepower to be generated by one ship's boiler.

Also most fossil-fueled steam electric power plants use water-tube boilers. Some of these boilers can generate super-heated steam in excess of 1200 PSI at more than 1200 degrees, which translates to nearly 1,000,000 horsepower :eek:

Water-tube boilers are very critical and somewhat delicate, but both ships and power plants are normally stable environments. As Gregg said earlier, if these boilers were on locomotives, they would become a maintenance nightmare in a few minutes due to vibration and shock.

Hank

fitz

July 2nd, 2001, 03:16 AM

bnsf, is that 4-8-4 a UP engine? No. 818 would fit in their number scheme. Back on page 3 of this forum I posted one of 814 or 815 with a similar skyline fairing on top. Maybe they were experimenting with stuff, before they decided to go with the elephant ears? :confused:

Gregg Mahlkov

July 2nd, 2001, 03:47 AM

The articulated looks like a "Bull Moose" 2-8-8-0 to me, rather than a 2-8-8-2, and the FEF has s shield number plate, so it's got to be a UP, Interesting pictures. If you think about it, the B&O KK-1 was really the precursor of the 2-6-6-4's used by N&W, SAL, and P&WV (the SAL's ended up on B&O), the Allegheny of C&O, and the Challengers, as it was the first relatively large drivered six axle simple articulated. :cool:

7600EM_1

July 2nd, 2001, 04:45 AM

Ok guys,
Heres one that i'd love to model in HO! It would be a real attension getter!!!!!! A B&O 2-6-8-0. Home made by the B&O at Mt. Clare!!! Just different I guess, but still interesting how it worked being it had 2 different types of tration engines beds on it with different wheel arrangements.....

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo2421s.jpg

:D

bnsf4354

July 2nd, 2001, 08:12 AM

Yes the 4-8-4 is a UP engine. They experimented with some different arrangements before they settled on the elephant ear approach. Fitz: it does appear to be the same arrangement as your photo now that I look at it more clearly.

The articulated is a 2-8-8-2 that UP used on sherman hill for a while, but they were too slow and were replace by the challengers and big boys. They were moved to slow freight and coal draggging from what I have read. I read somewhere that UP sold as many as it could, but saved a few for emergency motive power for the HILL! :rolleyes:

[ 02 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

bnsf4354

July 2nd, 2001, 10:35 AM

Here are some DRGW photos of 4-6-6-4s and 2-8-8-2s. http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00010751/00010802.jpg
:cool: http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00009751/00009871.jpg http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00010751/00010807.jpg

[ 02 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

July 2nd, 2001, 11:14 PM

Here we go guys!!!!!
3 B&O EM-1's all coupled together and at work... Count 'em 3 of the biggest B&O's steamers all on the front and exerting their 115,000 pounds of tractive effort together that measures up to 345,000 pounds of tractive effort!!!!! WOW!!!! :eek: :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/boEM1.jpg

bnsf4354

July 3rd, 2001, 11:43 AM

OK all, a bunch of photos to enjoy over the holiday. There are a few of the ATSF articulated boiler engines, a articulated camel-back, an EM1 in BW and one in color?,and a WM challenger. http://home.light.att.net/~sbiiilight/rrpix/articcml.jpg
http://home.light.att.net/~sbiiilight/rrpix/articjnt.jpg
http://home.light.att.net/~sbiiilight/rrpix/articem1.jpg
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo-s7615o.jpg
http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/graphics/trains/steam/wm1204.jpg :D

[ 03 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

Alan

July 4th, 2001, 12:18 AM

Here are a couple of drawings showing the water-tube boiler arrangement on Sir Nigel Gresley's experimental locomotive for the London and North Eastern railway. It was nicknamed the "Hush-Hush" due to it's very quiet running. The drawings are cross sections.

http://www.trainweb.org/andersleywestern/watertubeboiler1.jpg http://www.trainweb.org/andersleywestern/watertubeboiler2.jpg

bnsf4354

July 7th, 2001, 02:46 AM

Here are a few more---mainly NP 4-6-6-4s, 2-8-8-2s, and NP 2-8-8-2s. http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00014126/00014159.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00014126/00014155.jpg
http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00014126/00014138.jpg

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00014126/00014145.jpg

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00012001/00012013.jpg

[ 06 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

July 7th, 2001, 10:25 AM

BNSF,
I love that picture of the Articulated Camelback!!!!!!! That give those engines personality I think! And to boot.. It's Articulated! :D I love it. Anymore of those articulated Camelbacks???? I know of a few B&O Camelbacks.. I'll post! :D

7600EM_1

July 7th, 2001, 11:32 AM

heres one of the B&O Camelbacks.. A, 0-6-0 switcher....... :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1182s.jpg

And another B&O Camelback.... A 2-8-0...... :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo1632s.jpg

[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

bnsf4354

July 9th, 2001, 11:58 PM

Have we come to the end of the line on this post? Seems like most people have quit posting things. If so, I won't continue to dig up stuff to post here.

Maybe we should consider a non-articulated steam thread---what do you think?

:rolleyes:

Alan

July 10th, 2001, 03:19 AM

I like most things which run on rails, but Camelbacks are NOT one of them! :rolleyes:

watash

July 10th, 2001, 03:51 PM

I think this shows the fantastic interest there is about an articulated engine.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/boilerswing.jpg

7600EM_1

July 10th, 2001, 07:16 PM

Watash,
I have no idea where or how you got that picture of the articulation on that....What is that a N&W ??? But that is a wild picture!!! Ha Man does the curve he's setting on show the articulation or what!!!!!!! :D I like that as well....... And I believe it to be a rare articulated picture! HA :D

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

watash

July 14th, 2001, 02:07 AM

John, I'm not sure where the above photo was taken, Martinsville, West Virginnia I think, about 1949. I borrowed a friends Kodak and the photos came back with some sort of texture instead of the usual glossy surface. The front set of drivers have swung to the right as far as they will safely go. It was making a terrible squeeling of flanges when backing into this curve. I just stepped out in front to get this, then went back out of the way, because another one was backing in behind me! All very slow. :D

watash

July 14th, 2001, 02:34 AM

Here is one most people will never see.
"Safey" Engines, or Compressed Air engines are not used in ordinary railway service, but are used by many large manufgacturing plants on account of the absence of smoke, which renders it feasible to run them inside buildings where operations are being carried on to which fire or smoke would be fatal. Many of them are also used in coal mines in preference to electric cars, and where live steam could not be used because of the smoke and fire. Compressed air engines also furnish an additional supply of fresh air in the mine. They are used on cotton plantations, and especially in cotton compress warehouses and storage yards. In some of these engines, the air is pressed through hot water tanks which increases the efficiency of the air.

The photo is of a mining engine built by the Dickson Locomotive Works at Scranton, Pa. It stands five feet tall. The drivers are 26" diameter and the cylinders are 9" x 16". It weighs 16 tons, and stores air at 600 PSI with a working pressure of 125 PSI. The tank holds 170 cubic feet. There is no need for a fireman. Most engines of this type were 0-4-0, but this one is an 0-6-0, and fitted for link and pin coupling in 1905. The rivits are 1-1/4" diameter at the body and assembled with doublers, similar to the method used on aircraft today. They sound like a steam engine running.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/airengine.jpg

bnsf4354

July 17th, 2001, 02:17 AM

Here are a couple more gorgeous articulateds.

http://www.rivarossi.com/R_images/catalogo/5454.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/up3985a.jpg

Alan

July 17th, 2001, 03:27 AM

Good pics! Gorgeous, indeed smile.gif Is that a Shay on the flatcar behind the 3985? Interesting train smile.gif

fitz

July 17th, 2001, 04:26 AM

Alan, it depends upon when that photo was taken. I don't see any new cars in the photo, so it may have been back in 1991 or thereabouts, when UP used to drag the 1243 around to various places such as Railfair 91. I can't remember if 1243 was a ten-wheeler, 2-6-2, or what? :confused:
And bnsf, I know that roster shooters got their photos when they could and couldn't always compose them the way they would like. Your Camelback 0-8-0 has a water spout growing out of it forward of the stack. That could be used for a number of humorous applications. "Fill me up on the run." :D

7600EM_1

July 17th, 2001, 10:42 PM

BNSF,
I love the Allegheny 2-6-6-6.... Great picture man! HA! Also the Challenger looks be hauling a Shay.. Very possible look at the boiler and see if its cetered or if its off set on the frame.. That will tell everyone if its a Shay or not!!!! :D

I'm not much on the UP but those excursion colors are sweet... I will admit that was a nice paint scheme!!! :D If this thread hasn't died... KEEP 'EM COMMIN! I'll go find a few of my own....

Oh that spout on the camelback... Thats for road crew emergency refill on the water bottle.... :D Long runs I guess huh guy??? :D

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

Gregg Mahlkov

July 17th, 2001, 11:58 PM

The UP 1243 is a Ten-Wheeler (4-6-0). A brass model was imported in HO about a quarter century ago. I note in the photo that UP has painted the Vanderbilt tender in the prewar scheme with the "Overland" shield and engine number. :cool:

fitz

July 18th, 2001, 03:22 AM

Here's a shot of 1243 (and 4449) at Railfair '91. I'm not sure she ever got off that flat for the show. We left early. Gregg, sorry I didn't get the tender in this one. Looking at the 3985 shot, I'm pretty sure I can read 1243 and can see rods on the LH side of the engine, therefore not a Shay. John, sorry, that's YOUR photo of the tanker 0-8-0, not bnsf's. :eek: http://pioneer.net/~fitzrr/1243-4449.jpg

7600EM_1

July 18th, 2001, 12:24 PM

Guys,
Its easy to tell that #1243 is a rod engine and not a Shay.. Look at the pilot and right dead behind that you'll see 2 cylinders! HA! Only rod engines had those their... If it were a Shay the cylinders would be on the left side (pictire side) and you wouldn't be able to see them, A Heisler from that picture you'd see both cylinders... angled in from the sides.. And a climax.. almost like they are now just at a 45 degree angle from the front... Very simple..... :D Nice picture of the Daylight i'll admit!!!! HA ! :D

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

bnsf4354

July 19th, 2001, 08:55 AM

I can't believe we have 11 pages now on this post, not even counting the other 8 or so on the original one I started in the HO forum. Steam is alive and well! In our hearts at least.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

July 19th, 2001, 02:38 PM

To get to the 12th page I got some more pictures to add!!!! :D

Here we have a mallet by the Western Maryland.... A 2-8-8-2... Odd for the Western Maryland though! They were famous for their Challengers.... Its cab number 916, not to many of these are picture kept so..... Enjoy the rare ones of the road!!! HA! :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm916s.jpg

And the second picture of a Western Maryland 2-8-8-2's. Even though they had more, only 3 pictures of the loco, I can find!!! Number 919.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm919s.jpg

And the 3rd and last picture of the Western Maryland 2-8-8-2's.. Number 906..... :D

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm906s.jpg

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

July 19th, 2001, 03:00 PM

Ok, guys.... Some more Western Maryland power.....

This one, once was a 2-6-6-2 and the WM amputated the front and rear trucks for yard service... So Now its a 0-6-6-0.... Other then the pilot and trailing trucks removed its unchanged to what it looked like originally....

Western Maryland number 953...

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/wm/wm-s953n.jpg

And another and last picture of the WM's 2-6-6-2's reconfined as 0-6-6-0's.... Number 954... :D

http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00019751/00019830.jpg

ENJOY!!!

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

July 19th, 2001, 03:16 PM

And for todays posts.... I'm including a few pictures of the Western Marylands.. "Fireball" paint scheme.... :D First off we have an "I-2" 2-10-0, One of WM's finests......

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1129sa.jpg

And a "H-9" class 2-8-0 WM...

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/wm/wm-s833abn.jpg

Next will be their passenger power... 4-6-2's.. "K" class without the "Fireball" scheme... To compare.... :D

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/wm/wm-s208abn.jpg

ENJOY once again..... :D

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

watash

July 19th, 2001, 11:48 PM

John did you notice the rear cylinders have the flat plate slide valves like the front ones? Those are REALLY OLD engines. They are Mallet's compound design. Later versions were equipped with round piston type valves on the rear set, and still "Malleys". The later versions than that went to high pressure on both front and rear which made them Articulateds with round valves all around. Those old flat valve engines were powerful but slow. You could hear the exhaust "Bark" for miles in the mountains under heavy loads! Those were the days! smile.gif

7600EM_1

July 20th, 2001, 12:09 AM

Watash,
Yes I did notice that. And I know their way older then most we've been posting being most of the ones we've posted were made in the early to middle 1940's, the ones here are like in the 1900's to 1920's I believe.

I also know they were powerfull! But as I hear and understand the way they worked was like this:

On the true "Mallets" the rear set of drivers had to slip for a time to get the steam presure through them and up to the front set of drivers to begin pulling.....Which was hard on the rail and on the wheels that were slipping... Also created a rough ride for the crew... I've been told that the engineers and crewmen never liked them for that reason being that they had to slip the drivers and so on, and caused extra need for maintenence. About this time is when the railroads (most of them anyway) began experiments on the articulated ones were all the drivers both sets got presure to all 4 cylinders and no slipping was needed to get it going and ran alot smoother then the true Mallets did! And also wasn't so rough on the rail and its wheels, specially the tire itself, thus after so long the railroads machine shops had alot of resweating on tires onto the wheel itself from all the wear of slipping.... Thats when the articulateds then reasured the railroads to be better and that began a whole new ball game being it cut maintenence in half which cut the cost to run the railroad successfully....... :D

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

fitz

July 20th, 2001, 02:44 AM

Hey John or Watash, do either of you have any idea what the diameter of the front low-pressure cylinders was on those 2-8-8-2's?? They look enormous. :eek:

7600EM_1

July 20th, 2001, 04:58 AM

Fitz,
I know their either 36 inches or bigger maybe even 48 inches... I'm not real sure... Watash???? :D

bnsf4354

July 22nd, 2001, 10:13 AM

How about another view of an articulated articulating!

http://www.skyfirevideo.com/steamlocomotives/giants/images/up3985.jpg :D

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

7600EM_1

July 22nd, 2001, 10:33 AM

BNSF,
Great picture man! That looks to be a UP Challenger???? I can't make out the number so I took a guess.... HA! :D

watash

July 22nd, 2001, 12:38 PM

Looks like he's listing to port there, man is he haulin' the mail or what!

bnsf4354

July 22nd, 2001, 01:06 PM

I would have been quite undsettled to see that thing listing to port like that come straight at me!

My favorite artic is the Big Boy, but alot of talk has been made about my 2nd favorite (the Allegheny) being better than or equal to the Big Boy. So I did some checking and discovered that the Allegheny was better in only two less important categories----weight on drivers and horsepower. The Big Boy had over 25,000lbs more tractive effort. It also had virtually no wheel slip tendencies. Perhaps what I was more surprised to find was that the NW Class A had more tractive effort than the Allegheny! In fact a challenger almost had as much TE as the Allegheny! I'll put the results below for camprisons:

[RR] [Cab#] [Wheel/Driver] [Class] [Builder/yr] [Tractive Effort] [HP] [Top MPH]

[N&W] [1238-42] [2-6-6-4.70] [A1] [1950 N&W] [126,000] [6,300] [70]
[C&O] [1600-59] [2-6-6-6.67] [H-8] [1941-48 Lima] [110,200] [7,500@40] [70]
[UP] [3930-49] [4-6-6-4.69] [4664-5] [1944 ALCO] [97,400] [70]
[UP] [4020-24] [4-8-8-4.68] [4884-2] [1944 ALCO] [135,375] [6,280@37] [80]

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

watash

July 22nd, 2001, 01:50 PM

As near as I can make out, that Challenger is #3935 which would make it one of the swing only type that had better traction and smoother ride than the older ones where the front set of drivers could also move up and down independant of the boiler. That curve is not elevated either!

The largest diameter cylinders I have any record of, were on a series of compound mallets like the one below. You can see this old dude had slide valves on the front, and piston valves on the rear so is not the oldest type. This is a B&O #7324 made in 1923. I used this photo because it has the man standing close to the 44" diameter front cylinders for a comparison of size. I though there was a logging mallet that had larger cylinders, but it turned out to be narrow gauge and had 40" cylinders, so looked like the cylinders were super big. Can you emagine the force you could generate at 200 pounds per square inch behind those 44" cylinders? I really have my doubts about that guy holding that engine back if the engineer wants to move it! :D

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/bo441.jpg

7600EM_1

July 23rd, 2001, 04:14 AM

Watash,
That picture is of an EX. BR&P 2-8-8-2, which is the B&O's in the photo, hence the renumbering!!!!! Its an EE-2!!!!!!! :D I finally got orginal pictures of that to look at to see if I wanted to model it.. And sadly I did all that effort and they are waaaay different then most 2-8-8-2's made and i'm boycotting that attempt. I thought being I never seen any of those that I would have been close.. I was wrong....

Anyway I turned to making my 2-8-8-2 that are Rivarossi into B&O EL-6's being that the B&O's EL-6's were originally 2-8-8-2's and they removed the trailing truck to 2-8-8-0's, but they did run them as 2-8-8-2's and didn't like the trailing truck so, i'm going to model my 2-8-8-2 to an EL-6 before they amputated the trailing truck! :D

I'm also going to make a "Triplex" from my old TYCO junk 0-8-0's and 2-8-0's. This project is still in the designing process so.... It is very possible hit or miss still or may not even get started i'm still thinking the process through and to make sure it is reasonable to do and reliable!!! I want to have power in it doing it so... that means the front 2 sets of drivers will be powered where the set back under the tender will be dummy and just follow the front set and look good. This is why a set of "Modelers liecence" are nice to have and use quite offen! HA! :D

[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

7600EM_1

July 23rd, 2001, 04:26 AM

BNSF,
Thiers a few things that come into play with your listing of the differences between loco's..... Always remember that the Big Boys and the Challengers were built for high speed travel.. (High Speed Freight Service).... Where as the Allegheny was made for lugging freight as low speeds thats why thr horse power on the Big Boys where @ 70 MPH and so on and the Allegheny's HP was at 40 MPH..... A big difference and alot of different things come into play here... All those loco's were made for a different purpose..... Thats why the HP TE are different and just because of that they had irregularly different purposes for the different Railroads that owned them!!! :D

I will admit though the Challengers where the best tho out of them all... They had the power and the speed and where good for freight or passenger service. They were universal in use....

watash

July 23rd, 2001, 09:07 PM

You beat me to it John, and you are correct, so I'll present a tool for instruction when learning about steam engines back in 1899. One of these would be a great conversation piece for the den or train room, wouldn't it?

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/instruct.jpg

7600EM_1

July 23rd, 2001, 10:03 PM

Watash,
Yes that WOULD be a nice piece in the den for a conversation piece.. I'd love that!!!! HA! :D That would be nice to have to start a decent conversation with another fellow model railroader, as it would almost have to be another STEAM FANATIC like myself....... :D

bnsf4354

July 24th, 2001, 03:13 AM

EM1: I agree with what you are saying about the differences and am aware that each railroad used them differently. However, the numbers show that each of the locos produced their top HP in about the same speed range 30-45mph. I also realize that the higher HP allowed for easier sustained higher speeds, but again the Allegheny couldn't beat out the Big Boy. This may have had more to do with the better counter balancing on the Big Boy than anything else.

What can be said for sure is that each railroad purchased the engine that most closely matched their needs. UP needed long fast freight power over sherman hill and through the long expanses of the west. C&O needed power for heavy freight and coal trains through winding territory, and N&W needed power for heavy troop and freight through rolling and twisting hills and valleys. Each got a unit suited well for its requirements.

I will have to admit that the Challengers were probably the best overall----perhaps UP realized this as well since the Super Challengers were designed and built after the first Big Boys were delivered. Their versatility made them invaluable to the UP. More of them were made than any other simple artic on my list by a factor of at least 2!

I am looking for more to post, but am running out of examples. smile.gif

watash

July 24th, 2001, 01:53 PM

The railroad companies really took good care of you. They even posted adds like this on the bulletin board, just in case you wanted to save up for one. Even though this add came out in 1899, it still makes you stop and think.

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/1899leg.jpg

bnsf4354

July 25th, 2001, 04:21 AM

A few more. How about a doublehead shot of articulateds and a picture showing why a articulated was even created. Hope that thing stays on the track---wonder if it will make it around the curve?----YIKES!!
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/up/up-s3968abn.jpg
http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/up/up-s9000abn.jpg

[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

fitz

July 25th, 2001, 05:03 AM

Yeah, those UP 12-coupled monsters must have been a nightmare on curves. Does anyone know were any of the drivers "blind?" (no flanges). BNSF, where did you get that neat Challenger in your signature? :confused:

watash

July 25th, 2001, 12:56 PM

Alco's Brooks Works built the first 4-12-2 and delivered it in April 1926. Numbered 9000, it had three cylinders: the two outside cylinders were 27"x32" driving the third pair of drivers, and a centrally mounted cylinder 27"x31", driving the second pair of drivers. The first driver axle also had a crank on it to provide clearance for the main rod going to the second axle. Drivers were 67" diameter, and the fourth pair were blind (Flangeless) as a concession to curves that was found to be unnecessary due to the lateral-motion devices on the first and last pair of drivers. The lateral-motion devices were continued, but all subsequent models were fully flanged. This was the largest rigid wheel base engine in the World at the time. It road well at speed, and UP ordered 87 more like it. #'s 9000 to 9062 weighed 495,000 pounds, and #9063 to 9087 weighed 515,000. Roundhouse mechanics expected the Gresley valve gear to be a nightmare, but it was found that once correctly set and tuned, the valve gear lasted suprisingly longer than designed for, between maintainence shopping.

There were some other 12-coupled engines build in other countries, but in 1934 Russia built an experimental 4-14-4 that looked like a monster. It only weighed 416,000 with 63" drivers. It was designed to only place 20 tons per axle on the light rail and frail roadbed available. When it made its demonstration run, it tore the track apart, and was stored, then later it was scrapped.

7600EM_1

July 26th, 2001, 01:04 AM

Guys,
I tell ya the large wheel base loco's really get ahold of me I swear! :D Anyway.... Watash on that experimental 4-14-4, I read somewhere that it on its trial run on curves it would straighten out the curve!!!! Thats some wheel base!

Anyway on the "Bald Face 9's" anyone have a diagram to the valve gear on them ??? I have this strange wanting to see how that actually worked and a few close up shots of the valve gear to acomadate the diagrams ???? I really like the way those engines looked for their size and all... But Articulated and Mallet types are sill my favorite rod loco's... Geared types... I must go with the Shays to be my favorite in that catagory........ :D Let me know if anyone has a diagram on the UP 9000's.... You all should have my e-mail address but if not here it is again anyway.. yellowstone10@hotmail.com

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

fitz

July 26th, 2001, 03:11 AM

John, I have crawled all over the 9000 at the Pomona Fairgrounds and could kick myself for not getting some decent pix of the Gresley valve gear for the third cylinder. I can tell you that the crank on the second driver axle is humoungous. Might have some video of it, but the still pix don't show anything clearly.. There is another 3-cylinder engine there at Pomona, the SP 5021, a 4-10-2. Gresley valve gear is not new. A British invention, it has been around for a long time. Maybe Alan has some diagrams of the gear?? ;)

bnsf4354

July 26th, 2001, 03:31 AM

I posted a picture of the Russian 14 wheeled driver either on this post or in the VGN post in HO forum. Truly huge.

Just right click on the Challenger and look at the URL to find out where it came from. I found a BIG BOY like it, but couldn't get it to work for some reason---frustrating!

bnsf4354

July 26th, 2001, 03:35 AM

I posted this photo on page 2 of this thread, but here it is for your viewing pleasure.
http://parovoz.com/gallery/landreev.jpg

watash

July 26th, 2001, 03:54 AM

Another interesting insight into the Russian designer's mind: The piston rod was mounted on the 4th driver back from the cylinders, and required another connecting rod between the 4th and 5th driver to operate the valve gear. Inside next to each driver was a long hinged connecting rod connecting all 7 axles. American engines had the piston rod went to the 2nd driver, except for the 4-10-2 and the 4-12-2 that had the outside piston rods go to the 3rd driver. The American designers were attempting to reduce the reciprocating weight to lessen the pounding action on rails during high speed running. The weight of that long Russian piston rod was terriblely destructive to rails.

fitz

July 26th, 2001, 06:14 AM

I went back to the 1994 Pomona trip and didn't find any good Gresley pix, but like this one of Big Boy 4014 valve gear. Same year, shot the Big Boy 4005 at the OLD Forney Museum in Denver. Those were the first two Big Boys I had ever seen for real. You know, these engines are so big it is hard to get a decent photo of them when they are displayed. smile.gif http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/4014b.jpg http://www.pioneer.net/~fitzrr/4005.jpg

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]

watash

July 26th, 2001, 11:45 PM

Something that may not be clear to everyone, about what makes the 4-12-2 different than the "usual" American steam engines, is that Gresley valve gear.

Two cylinder steam engines are driven by pushing or pulling on the crank pins on each drive wheel, like bicycle pedals. A bicycle pedal crank is 180 degrees opposed, so if one pedal is down and you stand on it, you can not move the bike no matter how much you push down on that pedal, or if you pull up on it. For that reason, steam engines were designed with one crank pin rotated 90 degrees ahead of the one on the other wheel so that when one crank ends up directly in line with the cylinder when stopped; the crank on the other wheel is able to push or pull the wheels off "center".

One of the cylinders can either push or pull on the pair of wheels at any position anywhere around the circle. That is why you hear four exhaust chuffs for one revolution of the driver.

(I know your smoking models only get one chuff per revolution, but that is not prototypical.)

Think right and left, going foreward. Engine is at rest with left crank on dead center closer to the cylinder, crank on the right will be down. To move foreward: full steam pressure on the left piston will do nothing because it is trying to push directly in a straight line with the axle, so has no effect. But, steam pushing on the right piston can push the right crank back rotating the wheel to go foreward until the right crank reaches the dead center position away from the cylinder. While the rotation is going on, the left crank has been rotated down off center so that the left piston can now push against the left crank. This will then rotate the right crank up off center causing the valves to change so that steam now entering behind the piston on the right can pull the right crank foreward. Each time a crank reaches center (either close to the cylinder or farther away), the valves exhaust steam pressure (chuff) changing the pressure from pushing to pulling a piston. This happens four times every time the wheels turn one revolution.

With a THREE cylinder engine, the cranks have to be set 120 degrees apart. The two outside cylinders work as does a two cylinder engine, only at 120 degrees around the circle from eachother, with the third cylinder working 120 degrees between the others. I is like a three bladed airplane propeller, see? So there will be 6 chuffs per revolution of a wheel. This complicates the valving, that I wont even try to explain here. Refer to my post above and see the central crank on the #2 axle below, and the casting that shows the two outer big holes for the cylinders, and the large hole in the center for the third cylinder. The smaller holes are for the valves. Note that the valve hole for the third cylinder id about 45 degrees above and to the left of the center cylinder. The front view of the engine shows part of the equalizing bars that operate the timing for all three sets of valves. This will give you an idea of the size of st pieces we worked on in the roundhouse. And you complain about your N scale pieces being too small to work with? Go work in the roundhouse! :D

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/3cylchest.jpg

#2 wheel set with third cylinder crank

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/2drivcrank.jpg

The Gresley valve gear from the front

http://ns1.gameinfozone.net/jan/3cylfront.jpg

Got that? :D

[ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: watash ]

fitz

July 27th, 2001, 02:36 AM

Watash, what's all the crud in the valve hole castings? The photo of the No. 2 driver and crank showed up as a red X and I know that would be an interesting picture. ;)

watash

July 27th, 2001, 04:33 AM

Fitz, when we make the wooden sand casting patterns for a foundry, you have to be able to remove the wood pattern after the green sand is packed and tamped in the "Mother" sand frame, so "draft angle" allows the wood to be lifted out. For the interior (hollow part) of the steam chest, a "core pattern" is made to form the sand that will take up the space that would otherwise fill up with molten steel. The holes we want to cast for cylinder and valve chambers would break off and pull out or crack loose and maybe slip out of alignment and ruin the poured casting. So cores are made to place in the "mother" mold, (Mother forms all of the outside half of the steam chest that is on the floor)and has all the core alignment cavities in it. Rods are included in the cores for support, that also supports the interior cores. One end of these rods stick up out of the top of all these cores. When the "Daddy" half of the mold box is put on, the green sand is packed and tamped tight, thus holding this end of the cores steady, and forms all the outside of the top half of the casting.

Core sand is mixed with molasses and baked in an oven to harden it so it will hold its shape including the rods, so it can be handled for assembly into the mother mold, and during tamping in the daddy half. Then the whole thing is baked again.

After cooling the wood framing around the outside of the mold box is stripped away, and the whole thing is heated up around 1,200 degrees ready for pouring. In the mean time the steel "pour" has been melted and poured into a huge ladle that will be tipped over to pour the batch of molten steel into the sand mold. The mold is allowed to cool a little at a time until it gets to room temperature, then a crew comes in with air hammers and breakes up the sand to remove all of it from the casting. This can be a real job, because all the core sand has to be removed from the inside too, and that usually has to come out through a rather small hole.

Huge vibrators are sometimes attached to shake the sand so it will fall, or can be blown out. All the sand must be removed, even sand blasted out of and off of the whole casting. Then it is inspected for flaws.

If a non-repairable flaw is found, the whole casting is scrap, and must be remelted! You don't want to have worked on that job if that happens!

If the casting is stamped "accepted", then it goes to the big machine shop where all the big holes are bored on a Bullard Vertical Boring Mill, then all the small holes are drilled and tapped.

Then it goes to a huge Shaper, or Planer for facing to fit cylinder heads, valve heads, and the boiler on one side, and the frame on the other.

There is lots more, but that is the general Idea.

The rods you see in the photo, have to be torched or bent to remove them yet, but all are loose.

It is all hot, hard labor too, but fun as all get out when you see the engine roll out of the roundhouse under steam! :D

fitz

July 27th, 2001, 05:08 AM

Watash, thanks for that explanation. I have made small sand molds for casting, but nothing on the scale of a locomotive steam chest. The No.2 axle photo came through, and you young guys take a look at that. Is that some machinery, or what? I also appreciated your explanation of the way steam locomotive cylinders are set up. Many others have tried to explain that in ten million words or more, without success. Yours is great. "Top dead center" is something most younger people have never heard nor will understand. :cool:

7600EM_1

July 27th, 2001, 07:18 AM

Watash, & Fitz,
I understand alot of that and I will say if a steam chest was poured and done up and wasn't satisfactory. you may get a pink slip and told to pick up your pay ... And then see a employment wanted add somewhere for the same job you just got fired from. HA! :D Anyway, What really interests me is the fact of the different valve gear and so on to the 3 cylinder loco's. Its just different from what everyone's used to and seen alot ...... I'd just like to see how that looked and what it was like... :D VERY INTERESTING..... :D

watash

July 27th, 2001, 11:49 AM

The term "top dead center" came from the early vertical steam engines used in the mines. They used to have to pry the crank shaft off center in order to get the engine to run, and even then sometimes the engine would turn part way, and the load would cause the engine to stop almost on top dead center, but then the valve would reverse causing a power stroke in reverse! Many boilers were blown until a fly wheel was installed to keep them running in one direction.

The Gresley type valve gear has been around a long time, first developed and perfected in England, and also used on the old steam ships that had three cylinder steam plants, and man they were BIG!! If you have ever heard a shay engine run, or heard one on a video, it is the same sound as the 4-12-2.

On a piece of paper, draw three small rectangles side by side vertically standing in a row to represent cylinders. Draw a curved line from the center of the top line of the cylinder on the left, to the center of the top line of the center cylinder. Now draw another curved line from the middle of the curved line over to the center of the top line on the right hand cylinder. Now, in the middle of the long curved line draw a small dot to represent a pivot. Starting with the left cylinder, number them (1), (2), and (3). 1 and 3 are the outside cylinders of the engine, 2 is the third central cylinder.

You have just drawn the basic Gresley valve control mechanism. Here is how it works:

As the wheel rolls, the piston of cylinder 3 moves foreward 1/3, the long line pivots and shoves the valves 1 & 2 in toward reverse. Due to the 120 degree timing and positioned on the axels, clyinder 1 will start moving foreward next 1/3 which will push valve 2 back putting pressure on the 1/3 stroke. As 1 gets to the end of its stroke, and 3 is in full pressure at 1/3 stroke, 2 is pulled out, moving the short line out, now causing the long line to pivot, shoving 3 into reverse on the down stroke, completing one half revolution. 3 will come out, shoving 1 in, 2 will come out shoving 3 in, completing one full revolution. Simple. It is a very thoughty design. The idea he had was to have at least two cylinders performing work at all times, supplying a positive push at three places around the circle coupled with three pulls around the circle, or 6 chuffs per revolution. You may have to draw it out isometrically to visualize the action caused by the three points around the wheel and what happens as those three points rotate, and why the third cylinder had to be on another axle.

It reduced the tendancy to twist the axle (like the front axle of a wagon) by having some equal pressure on both wheels. American engines have one cylinder pushing, while the other cylinder is pulling, which really makes the axle want to make a left turn. If the frame didn't keep the axle aligned, it would turn. Since it can't turn, all it can do is rotate foreward, but under quite a strain.

American engines had more of a Bark to the exhaust, where English engines have more of a purr sounding exhaust. Now you know the basics.

[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: watash ]