Questions on the Athearn SnowBlower...

[7600EM_1]

Guys,
I have an undecorated Athearn Snow Blower. I know in listing this on flyers and all and on the box itself it states its a diesel powered Snow Blower! However, this is wrong, if it were diesel powered their would not be a steam boiler front on the rear of the body! With a Smoke stack right above the smokebox front on the rear of the car body. So this much of it is clear to us all.

However my question is, what make is it? Like the one Walthers made for their "Trainline" department is a ALCO/Leslie rotary Snow Blower... What model did Athearn model their Snow Blower after??? Being its not actually a full Snow Blower, being its advertised as a diesel powered one they didn't include a tender for it, but in reality, it should have a tender, being Athearn put a boiler front from a steam boiler on the rear of the car body with a smoke stack molded in the car body as well on the rear for the top of the car body. Which it should be advertised as a partial Snow Blower. Thing is, to model it, I'd like to see pictures or any information on it after I find out what make or manufacturer Athearn made it to follow.

Anyone know what manufacturer they followed to model it after???? And then once thats acomplished, I'd like to find some information on it as well as some pictures of the real thing that its supposed to be. To add some super detailing effects. Anyone know anything on this ???? In any event... TIA

[ 07. October 2002, 06:49: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

[slimjim]

Does it look like this??

http://www.udisco.com/hobbies/pics/001195.jpg

[7600EM_1]

Yes Jim, its the exact same thing you posted a link too. Just the one I have is all black plastic "undecorated" same body, port holes, same everything. Just mine is not painted...

What manufacturer type did Athearn follow to make their HO scale version???? graemlins/headscratch.gif

[slimjim]

Don't know yet :D :D . Most all of them have steam generators to supply heat and ice removal. If it has diesel type trucks, it has traction motors but no engine in it. The power for these comes from a "B" unit behind it through jumpers. The B unit may also not have traction motors. No two of the darn things are alike.

[7600EM_1]

Jim,
Its forsure steam powered, its the same as the one you posted, the front truck towards the blower housing/blades is from the steam era... As for the rear truck, its an old (er) 3 axle truck. Looks to me to be from the steam to diesel transition era. As for the car body, it has the port hole windows same as the one in the link you posted that looks to be from a F or E unit (for example) and then on the rear of it, it has a boiler front, from what looks to be a Mikado or some medium steam loco. And then right above that on the roof, it has a smoke stack! Their are no louvers of any kind on it no where. So I wouldn't assume its diesel powered.

Its got me confused :confused: being its listed to be a diesel powered snow blower with the remains of steam on it.... But no tender!

Go look at a Athearn Snow Blower, and you've got the exact thing I have. I'm trying to make it a complete snow blower and prototypical to whatever the manufacturer is. And then try to find pictures of one like it thats real to model from to add my own super detailing parts. Being I have went through the northeast. railfan site listings of snow blowers and they have none that resembles it to the body style closely. Some things are the same in looks but not near enough to say what the make is is on it or what Athearn followed to model it. Then to find pictures of it. maybe even a year to tell what era it was in or came from....

[watash]

The old steam rotary snow blowers did indeed have a small box type tender, but were not able to move along the track. They had to be moved by a regular engine, sometimes three or four, depending on how deep the snow was, and how densly packed it was. The steam rigs could blow snow as far as 100 to 150 feet off to either side. Those were equipped with 4 wheel trucks on both ends. These trucks were unique in having solid skirts to prevent ice from packing in around the wheels and springs and derailing the rig.

In later years when the old steam rotaries were converted to diesel power, a prime mover and generator was mounted in place of the boiler and cylinders. Diesel exhaust was sometimes run up through the old steam stack. The "advantage" of this conversion was expected to allow the one diesel engine to power both the snow fan, as well as now make it possible for the unit to move under its own power, since the generator could produce enough "juice" to run several motors. That is where the 6wheel rear truck came in. One motor turned the fan, and the truck motors were supposed to propel the rig along.

These diesel snow blowers had no steam provision, but did have large fuel tanks. As it turned out, most of these conversions were able to throw snow 50 to 85 feet continuously, but they still had to have additional "push" supplied by other engines. There was not enough weight to provide traction on the icy rails under heavy snow loading. They could blow and self-propel only on light snow fall work.

If you notice, the Athearn model (in HO) has the correct (and impossible to find now) 4 wheel flat skirted truck in front by the fan, and a 6 wheel truck in the rear, to simulate the diesel conversion. Did you also notice the whole machine tilts down hill ? The scale front 4 wheel truck's bolster is not as tall as the 6 wheel (passenger) truck in the rear. The lower edge of the scoop is only 3" off the rail head, but the model will drag and catch on rail joints, unless you do some serious surgery on that passenger car truck. (It isn't an engine truck).
At least the three Athearn Rotaries I have are all alike, two still new. I have tried to order the 4 wheel truck, but they tell me this truck is not available separately.

The real machines were of course level, and the 6 wheel truck was off one of the F units that were handy and did have motors on the axels!

Modern diesel snow blowers were designed for diesel power, so do look different, and are also longer with 6 wheel trucks on both ends and more modern looking too.

This information was partly from videos "Challenging Donner Pass in Winter",
"Historic Rotary Snow Plows", and some books about these machines.

It was a thrill to watch the steam rotaries blowing a huge plume of snow off the side of a cliff across a canyon wall, and hear the whistle signals as they backed up, and charged into the snow banks again and again!

Those were the days back in 1937! :D

[ 07. October 2002, 15:39: Message edited by: watash ]

[7600EM_1]

Oddly strange, this all is making some sence to being said to be a diesel powered snow blower. The thing thats got me is, it still has the boiler front from the boiler inside! This is what has me confused :confused: The boiler front is their, the smoke stack is their, which means it would have a boiler inside! BUT it has the 3 axled rear truck! from a Athearn passenger car! Just like the picture! However, I've taken the rear 3 axle truck off and replaced it with a 2 axle truck, being I had needed the truch for a used passenger car I had and wanted to put the passenger car in service! So, I got a snowblower thats steam powered.

I just got to looking at another feature on this too, look at the longest walkway that goes out across the roof... its got a round spot in the walkway where the top of a steam dome comes through the roof! Is this another sign that its possibly a steam powered blower ????? graemlins/headscratch.gif

[2slim]

John,
I did a little digging and I think I may have hit upon the parentage of Athearns Rotory. Irv was partial to Railroads that ran in and thru California, so once while I was skimming through my UP Color Guide to freight and passenger equipment book I stumbled on a picture of, (to my eyes anyway), Athearns rotory snowplow!! The book states that UP purchased 2 snowplows from Lima Hamilton in 1949, both were oil fired and had their boilers reversed so they could be fired from the center of the carbody. Here's something to make you smile John, both of UP's rotorys were equipped with ex-C&O 2-8-8-2 tenders! Apparently one is on display in Hermiston, Oregon. If my scanner hadn't pooped out last month I would have a picture of it to post. Jim could you help? The pictures are on pages 114 & 115.

2slim :D

[slimjim]

Bingo!! Hermiston, Oregon was the key word.

http://hometown.aol.com/accrs2001/rotary0761.html
http://hometown.aol.com/accrs2001/hermiston.html
http://hometown.aol.com/accrs2001/april.htm
http://www.hazegray.org/rail/rotaries.htm
http://wasteam.railfan.net/snowplows.html

[7600EM_1]

Thanks a million guys! That stops the modelers continuous headscratch graemlins/headscratch.gif On finding out what the builder or builders was! Also lends a hand in helping with the tender as well!

I believe that the snowblowers would have been better off made to fire off oil instead of coal. Being petroeum doesn't freeze and all like the coal did. Thing is, I'm going to mess with an Idea of my own with this for awhile. My Y6b (2-8-8-2) tenders I used for my EM-1's.

Being that its part of my MOW train which a few on the board has seen in person and others seen in a video tape thanks to Johnny Trains and his buddy Louie... The whole train is hand made, and also freelanced to the B&O. So being so, its got cars the B&O never actually had. So why not add a snow blower? And being of my own design and from my own thought of liking one car to another, I had the thought of making it oil fired to begin with, thing of that tho, is the fact that i'm less an oil tender thats a square welded type! BUT I do have a semi Vanderbuilt oil tender thats just laying around collecting dust. So, my thought is to make the front as super detailed as possible to the manufacturer, and freelance the tender to the mother unit etc with a freelanced color sceme to match my MOW train.

I believe, like the rest of my B&O MOW train, it will create a very conversational piece to the train. Being All the snowblowers I've seen have square tenders and not Vanderbuilt or even semi-Vanderbuilt tenders....I think it will look good like this. I just have to play with my ideas etc to make it look right and well detailed for each piece being a set as a loco and its tender.... graemlins/097.gif Just to be different and all, plus to draw some attension and be a "talkitive piece" :D

[7600EM_1]

Forgot to say, THANKS Jim for the links! VERY HELPFULL!

I have to say, that the one UP snowblower in those is the first and only one I ever seen with a Vanderbuilt tender of any I've seen! Very interesting! THANKS! I sure appreciate it! graemlins/097.gif

[Benny]

One of the best topics I have seen in a long time!!!!!!

I might just have to pick up another plow now, one that is silver.

On that Vany tender, you could build a plastic skirt aboud the tank, flush with the upperdeck...just a thought, though.

How about adding htis investigation into "Best of trainboard" Section? I know i won't want to dig this one out when I need it agin!

Thanks all and good night.

[slimjim]

All in a days work :D :D .

[7600EM_1]

Benny,
No, I kinda like the idea of making a snow blower with the vandy tender... Its something different! And then, the whole idea I've got is different! The B&O never had a snow blower at all! Just one wedge snow plow That I will post a link to for you all to have a look see. But never a snow blower!

So, being the entire train I'm building (yes, building) is hand made, and B&O free lanced, why not? I liked it and I'm going to add it to the MOW train that gave me the name I have today for what I do...It was a hit when I first started it back in 1989/90 so... And to this very day, its still a big hit in my neck of the woods! All the cars so far to it is either hand made scratchbuilt, or kit bashed repaired junk cars I had picked up at yard sales/garage sales along the way. Some of which, I had bought just to customize to whatever I wanted and all so.. then freelanced a blue with dulux yellow lettering numbers and even some with striping! :eek:

The whole train is all "Royal Blue" to match the B&O'd diesels and passenger car shade of blue, with the striping and lettering and numbers from the first high nose road diesel sceme, with 2 stripes, one on the side sill and one 2/3rds up the side of the body, all blue and the words "Baltimore And Ohio" written out on the long hood. So I took this design, and made it fit the crew cars the big hook crane body, and the caboose cabs on like the boom tender etc and the rest of the cars are all blue (the same shade) and just have numbers and the written out wording of "Baltimore And Ohio" on them! :D

I liked the Snowblower for the fact of it being Maintenace of Way so.. I thought it be a nice conversational piece to the train! :D I've also got a Jordan Spreader in the works of getting the same treatment as well! To add to this long rostered train!

I do however have another question on the snow blower.. The portholes, was their glass in these ??? or were they open to let air inside to the boiler???? If it were a diesel powered version, I would know that the portholes had glass in them, but for the steam versio, I'm not so sure... Being it would have been quite warm in their... Let me know so I know to make my porthole glass or not too! THANKS everyone for the help! Its greatly appreciated!

Jim,
Let it up to me to come up with something interesting. HA! It means I'm probably modeling it or something of the sort! That I got stumped on or wanted to know more information on it.... I vote to have it put in the "Best Of" for our users to pull up if the question would ever come up again...

[ 08. October 2002, 09:47: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

[slimjim]

It was glass. You have to remember when they ran these it was very cold out.

[7600EM_1]

Heres that link I had mentioned about posting... This is the only form of B&O snow removal I've seen... It looks to be a "sides" plow, and not a V plow.... Being it has the straight edge on the plow at the very front/ point....

B&O Wedge Plow (http://gowest.coalliance.org/photos/00002501/00002623.jpg)

I've gave it some thought to model this as well at a later date.... But, thats just a thought in progress right now!

[slimjim]

Thats a throw to the right plow for use on double track.

[7600EM_1]

Jim,
I figured it was a one sided plow for double main lines, instead of a "V" plow... Its very noticable from the straight edge on the plows point. The thing on that, thats got me really wondering, is the point of the plow itself near the tracks! see how it sort of points up? I would have thought it be pointed down, or level with the track. Not as it is with an upwards point. Strange! Know any reason why they would have made it like that ???? Besides having the flanger near the rear set of trucks ???? Made to oppose hitting something? Its got me wondering! :D

[watash]

John, study the photo carefully. Note the shear-foot edge of the scoop is 3" above the rail at BOTH rails. The shear edge is horizontal so it can "cut" the snow pack and get under it to lift it off the rails at speed. As the snow is lifting up it is then guided to the right hand side where by momentum it is then discarded off the right-of-way, like windrowing wheat stubble.

On Double track right-of-way, the plow would be pushed at speed on the right hand track, say, going north, then turned around and be pushed going south on the other track. This would throw the snow off away from the two tracks. Follow me?

A wedge plow would have covered one of the tracks either way it was pushed, see?

[7600EM_1]

Yes Watash I follow you! A "V" plow would only clear one side at a time but cover the other track being a double mainline! A single mainline they used the "V" plow to evenly discard the snow to both sides!

As for the snow blower, it would whip the snow to the right going north, and the right again going south, this would keep both tracks pretty near clear, besides the flying snow of the blades out in front that would put some "overspray" onto the track beside the one being cleared, but nothing of volume. It be like a snow dusting from the blades throwback or overspray...

[7600EM_1]

I have a friendly e-mail to post from a Walthers writter on the snowblowers!

Spotted your Trainboard posting - being a snowplow nut, I wanted to pass on
the following:

Your model is based on the Rotary Snowplows built and marketed by Lima in
the late 1940s. Following severe winter weather in 1948-49 (the west end of
the Soo was essentially at a stand-still for days at a time), Lima sought to
enter the market with a modern plow.

There were only four built, the last in America - two for UP and one each
for the Soo and Rock Island. I don't believe any were shipped with tenders,
as they were becoming readily available as more steam was retired. I do know
the Soo plow #X-19 received a "haystack" Vanderbilt tender from an ex-Rock
Island 2-8-2 acquired during WWII. The Rock plow used a tender from one of
their 4-8-4s. Not sure about UP. Lima designed the boiler to handle all
types of fuel oil including diesel fuel, but these were steam-powered plows.

As it comes, the Athearn model is very accurate and depicts a steam-powered
plow. The real ones did indeed have a four-wheel lead and six-wheel trailing
truck. The very large and heavy boiler was reversed on the real thing to
simplify maintenance, and that¹s why you find a smokebox door and other
details at the rear of the model. Most of the other molded-on detail is
found on the prototype. About the only thing missing are the inward curved
stirrups on the front and rear. (Don't be confused by prototype photos
showing the front end fitted with ladders and a pilot beam, I'm told these
were only installed to move the units from the factory to the buyer and not
used in service.)

Prototype photos are quite easy to come by if you can locate these books:
Snowplow, Clearing Mountain Rails - by George Abdil
Lima - by Erik Hirsimaki (beautiful UP and Soo builder's photos with
additional information)
The Soo Line - by Patrick Dorin has B&W photos of X-19 on delivery with
tender.

The Rock Island Historical Society had a data sheet about their plow many
years ago with additional photos and information. Not sure if that might
still be available or not.

As far as I have been able to determine, only the UP plows saw much service.
It appears that the Rock plow was scrapped in Kansas City sometime in the
1950s or 60s. Not sure when the Soo plow was retired, but I haven't seen any
evidence to suggest it was ever needed after delivery.

The Walthers model (which isn't part of the Trainline® series by the way) is
based on an earlier Alco-Leslie design, built around 1912-15 for the Oregon
Short Line and preserved at North Freedom, Wisconsin. It would appear the
majority of rotary plows in service were of this type. The 8000 gallon
tender with our model is typical of plows still in service in the 30s and
40s, as these smaller tanks were being replaced with larger capacity models
on road engines.

Hope this is of help!

Lance A. Burton
Senior Writer, Wm. K. Walthers, Inc.THANKS Lance Burton! You see guys this proves that model companies see our posts!!!!!!

[Alan]

Wonderful! Isn't it great to get that sort of information smile.gif

Well done to Lance Burton!

[watash]

I have to agree with Lance. The Walthers rotary with tender is a good looking machine.

I just wish Athearn would have made their rotary to sit level and at least look good.

Thanks for all the information on the rotaries Lance, and welcome to our family here at the TrainBoard.

You would be most welcome to visit often and possibly answer some questions the members sometimes post regarding the availability of items listed in your catalog, especially for scratch building and kit bashing. :D

[2slim]

Alan's right, I don't know of any other place you could get so much good info.

About the only thing missing are the inward curved stirrups on the front and rear. Those would be cool to model, wonder if they would interfere with the trucks on sharp curves? Still would look great though. Watash, did you say the rear bolster could be reworked to make it sit more level? Hmmmm, which storage box is mine in............. graemlins/confused.gif graemlins/097.gif

2slim

[7600EM_1]

I have done the work to mine to make it sit level! You will be getting into some real plastic surgry for the rear 3 axle truck! It has to have the frame bolster filed down, and the top of the trucks mounting pot that goes up into the frame to make it that the truck doesn't "drop" when picked up or for when putting on rail the truck will hand slightly! Then file on the truck frame around the truck to frame contact area to lower it even more, and then you can take a Kadee fiber washer, preferably the .10 of an inch thinkness washers and put them on the frame bolster for the front truck to slightly raise it. I have done this a few different times, once for myself and 3 or 4 times for customers in the shop. In doing so, you may have one time with a single .10 of an inch washer on the front truck, and on another snowblower, you may have to use two .10 of an inch washers! It all depends on home much you take off the rear truck! But be ware, do not file the rear 3 axle truck to thin! It will in time, warp with age and the weight it supports being its plastic and has been filed which will weaken it! This is why I had raised the front truck. I didn't want the rear truck plastic to thin to later on warp or even crack from stress on it.

[watash]

Gotcha John. Thanks for the advice!

I'm still throwing rocks at the three I have!

The main thing is to try and keep the standard 3" above the rails for the scoop bottom.

I'll keep it in mind when I get to them. :D

[7600EM_1]

Watash,
Let me know ole buddy! I might be able to help you along when you go to work on them! I'll take you though the paces of doing this. Its pretty simple actually.. :D

[watash]

Thanks good buddy, I hate to work alone under something that heavy! :D

[7600EM_1]

Watash.... you bein' a funny guy! HA! I'm going to put a motor in the blower I'm workin' on. To spin the blades! And be pushed by one of my big guys! HA! In reverse the motor will shut off... by means of a diode! :D The loco will pull it but the blades won't be engaged! In forwards the loco will push it and the blades will be engaged! graemlins/097.gif

[ 10. October 2002, 11:48: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]

[beast5420]

John,
Great idea!!!! Be a good way to keep cats clear from the tracks!! One hit from that & they'd never come back!!!! graemlins/clappy.gif graemlins/clappy.gif graemlins/clappy.gif :D

[watash]

I use my Railway Cannon for cats, dogs, mice, and children that try to reach for anything on my layout, and that includes humans with sticky itchy fingers (they used to have!)

And I am unanimous in that! :mad: graemlins/cursing.gif

[7600EM_1]

My Trio of EL-5's (3 2-8-8-0's) with alot of moving side rods fixed a cat once! :D riped the fur right out of its tail and one hind leg! The snowblower wouldn't do that much damage!!!! graemlins/wink.gif

Then the cat was afraif of the basement for a long time.. HA! Bad nasty mean things down their it says to itself!

[beast5420]

of course, if modeling the right era, you have a lot of telegraph wires along the track. a little extra work and some fine wire, you can have a hot wire trackside!!!! just need to turn it off before recovering a de-railment!! :D

[7600EM_1]

An electric fence, sort of! HA! That would teach a cat from jumping up on the layout! :D

But since my 3, "Triple header" EL-5's got to my cat she since then learned laying in my tunnels is no place to be! Specially when shes laying on the right of way! And these 3 Giants are comming right along, side rods and all!

[watash]

I guess you could hook the wires up to one of these "bug zappers" and have fried kat!

Guarantee he wont come back!

He might learn to fly though. :D

There was a warning the Ranchers put out in west Texas a few years ago. Any stray cats found in the fields, will be shot!

I found out, it was because the stray wild cats were eating up the wild Quail and dove (squab) population.

The ranchers used to buy us boxes of ammunition if we would drive their fields and shoot the wild rabbits for them, which we did.

Three rabbits will eat as much feed and grass as one full grown cow! That's why, see?

I was also offered ammunition to shoot the kitty cats, that is how I found out about it.

No, the only cat I shot, was a wild cat, the real one! And that sucker was mean!

He was eating young calves. We finally baited him, and I dispatched him with an 11mm Mountain Mauser.

The closest we could get to him was a little over 350 yards, but that old German sniper rifle had an excellent Kayliss scope, so it was no problem, now he is hanging on the rancher's wall!

[ 12. October 2002, 15:16: Message edited by: watash ]

[cthippo]

11mm Mauser?!? is that about like a .44-40 cartridge? I've never heard of one, but that would have to be a hell of a gamestopper!

[watash]

It was pretty close. The bullet measured .433" diameter, weighed 450gm had a 60/40 lead filled copper case, hollow point filled with grease, then forged closed to a point. They were outlawed as in-humane in WW I, called "Bum-dums". The whole shell is 110.5mm long and holds 130 grains of powder. it has 71 foot pounds muzzle energy. There were not many made, and not recommended for ladies. The scope would fold to one side and the rear peep sight has clicks up to 540 meters. The scope is variable power. The barrel is fitted with a Scheutzin-Schlichter recoil repressor. The action is a Brevex long-bolt, (cocks on the up-stroke, like the Mannlicher Schoenauer). I have forgotten how to spell these names. It was made for troops to lay down on one mountain and fire accurately at the enemy across the valley in the Alps. There were supposed to have been four sent to Stallingrad during WW II, but the collector I sold it to, wasn't certain of that.

[ 13. October 2002, 08:03: Message edited by: watash ]

[Biggerhammer]

Wow! That's a longer shot than I would've tried, for sure... I don't know that rifle but at that kind of range I would expect either a light 7mm or the ever-popular 30-06.

I've been toying with the idea od converting one of my old cabooses (cabeese?) to snowplow duty. There's a prototypical one in the small caboose village at Tilton, NH that has always looked interesting to me.

[7600EM_1]

I've seen some pictures of the UP's converted Vanderbuilt tender to wedge snow plows... I been thinking of modeling one of these as well to go along with my snowblower that I free lanced to be a part of my B&O "MOW" train.

I know the reasoning behind UP's Vanderbuilt tender wedge snow plows tho, it was for the fact it could be filled with concrete or water or some fluid for extra weight to keep its trucks on the rail. I have a few Vanderbuilt tenders that aren't of the B&O style so. I'm going to take one and do some plastic surgery to it and kitbash one like the one I seen a picture of! Might be an interesting *fun* so.... :D And then freelance it to a B&O wedge snow plow! graemlins/097.gif