Need layout plan ideas for a small Z layout...

[HemiAdda2d]

It's my wife's fault! She wants a Z layout!
We're thinking 2x4', or smaller. We want mountain scenery, and something that doesn't look like a bowl of spaghetti.. Grades are fine up to 2%, and I don't want a simple loop either. Needs to have operational interest. DCC not likely, with the Wright turnouts I have recently acquired. Only 2 units, so blocks could work. Would like 2-3 sidings, enough for a 10-car train with one engine and caboose. What's a good minimum radii? I would like a passenger train eventually, needs to accomodate and look good.
Ideas, anyone?

[Adam Amick]

One question: Is this layout going to go against a wall, or will you be able to walk around it?

Here's why I ask; If space is limited, consider going with a narrow shelf-type design around the walls of a room, with flares at the ends to allow for loops and continuous running. (You only need about 20" in depth to pull this off, though the radius will be a little tight at 9")

But, the advantage is a longer mainline run, without passing through the same scene twice, and more operating potential.

If you want to do the 2x4 as a stand-alone, and can get around it, I would run a skyboard across the middle, or corner to corner, to divide the layout in half. Have mountains build up to the board, and that will create the illusion of a larger layout in small space.

You could have a town on each side, with a couple or three industries in each, plus a passenger platform.

I would also advise designing spurs off the ends where you could add additional modules, or just little removable staging yards for when you run, that could be disconnected and put up between sessions.

Track plan-wise you seem to be against a simple oval, so perhaps a paperclip design would be better. You can use scenery and terrain to "hide" parts of the line so you're not passing through the same scene twice, and you effectively double the length of your mainline run.

Adam

[pray59]

My grandfather is building a 2'x4' Z Layout, and has a dual track mainline loop with numerous sidings for industry, and crosovers for inner to outer lines and back. He has a mountain range in the center, as a scenic divider too!

You an do a lot in 2'x4', about what you could do with a small 5'x10' HO layout. :D

-Robert

[Triplex]

Would like 2-3 sidings, enough for a 10-car train with one engine and caboose.What length of cars?

What's a good minimum radii?7-1/4" in Z equates to 18" in HO, for comparison. I think all Marklin and Micro-Trains locos will handle that curve; only AZL makes large North American engines. But if I would like a passenger train eventually, needs to accomodate and look good.Well, 12" in Z equates to 30" in HO, but that won't fit.

[HemiAdda2d]

Calgary? Dang, I was just up there for Supertrain!
Cars are based on 50' cars. I have many 40' cars too.
I was thinking a 'paperclip' design, with a center scenic block. Mountains and tunnels are the rule here. My wife likes both D&RGW and GN, and we have equip. for both lines. Would like someting specific enough to the Rockies that either road 'belongs' on the layout. 12" rad. equals only 18" rad in HO? Or is that supposed to be N? Maybe a 3x4 foot? I kinda want to offset the ovals of the 'paperclip' to give the track plan variety.
I am looking at something similar to this:
http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/2x40007.gif

From: http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/m_train2.htm#true_2x4

Built in Z,this should give generous curves, and plenty of action, even on a 2x4'.

[Triplex]

Look at my post again for the correct radius conversion.

That N scale layout has 9-3/4" curves. In this same space in Z, it'll do fine. 9-3/4" in Z equates to 13-1/2" in N or 24" in HO. Passenger equipment will handle that.

[pray59]

Have you looked at the HO 4'x8' layout plans from Thor's All-Gauge Model Railroading Page (http://www.thortrains.net/) ? You can fit these style layouts in 2'x4' Z.

Point to Point:
http://www.thortrains.net/4ho1b.gif

Switching Layout:
http://www.thortrains.net/4ho3.gif

Loop and Sidings:
http://www.thortrains.net/4ho7a.gif

There are hundreds of trackplans on that site to choose from, or build upon.

-Robert graemlins/wink.gif

[HemiAdda2d]

Originally posted by Triplex:
Look at my post again for the correct radius conversion.

That N scale layout has 9-3/4" curves. In this same space in Z, it'll do fine. 9-3/4" in Z equates to 13-1/2" in N or 24" in HO. Passenger equipment will handle that. OK, don't mind my momentary brain dump!

Will a 9 3/4" rad in Z be reliable with passenger cars? What do you recommend?
Just because it will handle it, doesn't mean I want curves that sharp if I can avoid it, to help the railroad run smoother.

[shamoo737]

What passenger cars. The Marklin will handle sharp curves really well, but with the AZL will want a little wider curve. Not much, but they will run better. Specialy in the push mode. I think 9 3/4'' radius should be fine.

[HemiAdda2d]

This one is similar to what I want to build, minus the three-times around...
http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/lakedist.zip
I want 2 passing sidings, and a few spurs. This plan is mostly for running. Switching is not a big priority.
I need to do some MS paintbrush trials...

[Triplex]

Will a 9 3/4" rad in Z be reliable with passenger cars? What do you recommend?I don't own any Z, so I'll have to go by analogy with HO and N. As long as the passenger cars have truck-mounted couplers, they'll run fine on 9-3/4". They won't look very good, but you don't really have room for that.
This one is similar to what I want to build, minus the three-times around...3 times around with no passing track, but you say you want neither of those... then what is it about the Lake District Railway you want to keep?

[HemiAdda2d]

This plan is more to what I want, minus some of the spaghetti-bowl trackage:
http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/78x30_09.gif

And this one's even better:
http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/78x30_21.gif

Getting warmer:
http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/2x40007.gif

[ February 21, 2006, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: HemiAdda2d ]

[HemiAdda2d]

What issues will I have, building this plan, based on a 30x78" door in N, on a 2x4' layout in Z? I may have to relax my train length some, to about engine, 6 cars and caboose. I would like double-ended passing sidings.

http://www.naisp.net/mfischer/Trkplans/78x30_21.gif

[pray59]

It would only end up being 9" compressed, but if you run the figure 8's to the edges, maybe only 3-4" compressed form that plan.

-Robert

[Heine Pedersen]

Here is the trackplan from my coffee table layout. You can ad more sidings. Especially if you have room to stretch the length of it.
http://www.heinepedersen.com/miniclub/fugleperspektiv12-09-01.JPG

http://www.heinepedersen.com/miniclub/fugleperspektiv14-08-01.JPG

[HemiAdda2d]

Originally posted by pray59:
It would only end up being 9" compressed, but if you run the figure 8's to the edges, maybe only 3-4" compressed form that plan.

-Robert Say what? graemlins/headscratch.gif
Heine, what's the dimensions of that pike? I like it!

[HemiAdda2d]

Here's a quick plan I built in MS paint: 2x4', grades unknown to make the elevation required..
It gives me 3 short passing sidings, a couple of spurs, and a switching area. Emphasis is on running trains.
Does the curvature look too tight? I figure on a 9" rad. min.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aaj.jpg

[HemiAdda2d]

More Q's: what height is required to clear MT doublestacks?
What radii is the Wright Turnout diverging route?
I also have a wye turnout, and want to make an equilateral siding with it. Maybe at the foot of the grade.
My bridge needs that height plus about a 1/16". I'm guessing with 5-8 cars, and a caboose, a MT F7 can handle that grade, likely about 2-2.5% max. Maybe less. Big scenery is key in this plan. Tear it apart, gentlemen, I wanna know what you REALLY think about it, other than my crappy microsoft paint work...

[Heine Pedersen]

Originally posted by HemiAdda2d:

Heine, what's the dimensions of that pike? I like it! The table is 120x80 cm. that should be 3,9 x 2,6 feet.

http://www.heinepedersen.com/miniclub/bord_logo_07.JPG

This kind of "dogbone" layout is more exiting to watch when you let the trains run than an ordinary oval layout.

http://www.heinepedersen.com/miniclub/fugleperspektiv08-12-02.JPG

[N_S_L]

I'm real tempted to have a small layout after reading this thread....

[Kez]

Originally posted by nscale_lover:
I'm real tempted to have a small layout after reading this thread.... One by one they migrate........ :D :D

Welcome to the fold. Build it in Z.

[HemiAdda2d]

Yeah, it's neat to build in Z. It's like N used to be, if you wanted it, build it from scratch. But, it's getting better. The quality is there, and the detail that is possible is astounding!

Back on topic, what do you guys think of my modest plan? Critique away!

[pray59]

For a small layout plan, that looks good. It's a classic Over/Under plan that allows a little operation, and lots of eye candy for those times you just want to watch a train run.

There is no "Spaghetti" involved, and a good ratio of scenery to track. I say, go for it!

-Robert :D

[Heine Pedersen]

This looks like a nice layout. I like the diagonal scenic divider instead of a paralell divider.

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aaj.jpg

[HemiAdda2d]

It opens the layout up to look larger than it really is. Are 2% grades sufficient to get enough elevation to clear doublestacks on the lower tracks? Can I go with a lesser grade?

[pray59]

Yes, looking at that layout and guestimating a start of the grade outside the tunnel on the bottom right for the lower level, it looks like there is 8 feet of track until you cross over the lower track.

That allows almost 2 inches of height above the lower track with a 2% grade. I would think you might get away with a 1.5% grade and still clear double stack cars, depending on how carefully you prepare the grade.

I would think a 15 car stack train should look about right, and run just fine. A 24 car coal drag pulled by a couple Rio Grande SD45's would look real cool too! And as far as scenery goes... There is room for a coal mine with a concrete loader, a decent sized town with a couple rail fed industries, and a small intermodal yard moved with piggy packers on the bottom side.

You will be suprised how much action you can pack in such a small space! graemlins/wink.gif

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

If AZL would release SD45's in plastic, I'd buy some.. The brass ones are too rich for my blood.

I was thinking I could get away with easier grades, I may still be able to do it...

[david f.]

hi hemi,
we're in sync on the SD45s. i'd love a rio grande unit. caboose in denver has two UP SD45s left for $675 each. no can do, for me.

look, i don't want to be the wet blanket, but i think you need to know that you have something of an optical illusion going on in your track plan.

it's easy to draw track, but when you get to fitting the real thing, suddenly the track-plan shrinks.

consider your by pass at the bottom of the plan. if you think about it you've only got about a 1" separation (or less) between track centerlines. ok if you want to do it, but when it comes to laying real track and switches you'll find your sidings will require more space than what's drawn. that's 24 inches along the left/right egdes -- mark it off and i think you'll see what i'm getting at.

i'm not dissing your work, by any means -- i like your plan.

i'm working on a 2x4 Z layout as well, and when i began placing actual track on the layout i found i couldn't do everything i had intended!

keep us informed.
dave f.

[HemiAdda2d]

Dave,
I understand that, and am planning on a siding that will fit an engine, and 5-8 cars, incl. a caboose. Th siding length will shrink somewhat. To what extent, I don't know yet.
It happens to the best of us, and I have done it myself before, too!

[HemiAdda2d]

As usual, compromises drive this hobby.. I laid my risers for the grade over the snowy weekend. The grade stretches about 6 feet. Similar to Tennessee Pass at Pando, CO, the grade levels out for a siding. The grade begins at 2% for 24", then stiffens to 2.4% for the remainder of the climb.
As for the compromise, the siding length is about 16-17" 4-50' cars, caboose and engine will fit. I think 5-40' cars will also fit, with caboose and engine. I don't want to kink the track too much before a turnout. Otherwise, I could have longer sidings.
Progress pics hopefully tonite!

[pray59]

I'm glad you have made some progress past the armchair phase. Now that your layout is started, You will slowly find yourself turning hardcore Z modeler.
(Fishy got a hook in his mouth!) graemlins/223.gif

I can't wait to see pictures of your progress. I know you said this is a layout for your wife, but I think you will be getting the most satisfaction out of it. tongue.gif

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

Kristal has already accused me of that, since I tacked on a few extras to a flextrack order from FRTS.. Namely a pair of undec GP35's, 2 stack cars, and a pair of Christmas cars. Honestly, the holiday cars were her idea!

I am jonesin' to get started laying track! I have a few scenic plans, and plenty of foam... I want dramatic scenery. I'm just dabbling in Z for now. Way too much N to quit that now.

Slightly off-topic: Have you ever used contact adhesive, the low-VOC type, to affix cork to foam before?

[pray59]

I have not, but what you can use with great results, is Scotch 924 Transfer Adhesive (http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?store=001&group_id=1491) . graemlins/wink.gif

This stuff is the glue part of tape, and a waxy paper packing. It is the super strong stuff like used to seal an overnight letter. It's cheap, and instant! Once you use this stuff, you will never go back to contact cement again! :D

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

Is it worth a hoot in the long run? How's its longevity, durability?

[pray59]

This is the stuff that you stick to the backside of microplywood, then lasercut to make "Peel and Stick" doors, windows, roofs, and trim.

This stuff don't mess around. Well, if you get a roll, you can use it for all kinds of things. You ever try to apply Cambell Roof Shingles to a structure kit with glue? I did for the last 30 years, until a few weeks ago when I found this stuff.

Remember, it's NOT TAPE! It's the super duper mega sticky glue that they use to seal Fedex Boxes, Overnight Letters, ad stuff like that. When it touches paper or cardboard, it's forever. The paper will tear off, but not the glue.

The glue peels off sticky side out, and it's meant for a special adhesive dispenser gun. I stick it to my micro plywood, then laser cut out roof pieces, and build my model. When it's time to apply the shingles, I peel off the waxpaper backing and apply coarses of lasercut shingles that look like the cambell roof shingles. In minutes I have a 3d roof!

I have more uses for it, but it really speeds up the job!
As far as sticking cork to foam, it will do the job just fine. All you do is apply it to the backside of the cork strips, burnish it in a bit, and you have in effect produced "Self Stick Cork Roadbed"!

-Robert

[Adam Amick]

I like the design, especially the angled viewblock. If you can run a skyboard down the middle it will provide more height with less work in construction of mountains, and allows for more depth perception, while enhancing the viewblock aspect.

I would suggest that you leave your options open by having at least 1 track run to the edge as a spur, so that you could add on to the layout at some point.

I am thinking of a little larger deal (3x6 feet) with a wye on one corner to facilitate options for expansion to a staging yard that would allow trains to run onto the layout from either direction. Thus allowing operations to the on-layout town/city from east/west.

Just keep in mind options... Allow for future expansion. Another couple of feet here or there can mean a major expansion.

Adam

Originally posted by HemiAdda2d:
If AZL would release SD45's in plastic, I'd buy some.. The brass ones are too rich for my blood.

I was thinking I could get away with easier grades, I may still be able to do it...

[HemiAdda2d]

Originally posted by pray59:
I have not, but what you can use with great results, is Scotch 924 Transfer Adhesive (http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?store=001&group_id=1491) . graemlins/wink.gif

This stuff is the glue part of tape, and a waxy paper packing. It is the super strong stuff like used to seal an overnight letter. It's cheap, and instant! Once you use this stuff, you will never go back to contact cement again! :D

-Robert I thought I bought the right stuff, nope, Walmart doesn't have it. What I bought was http://javascript:itemDetail'1328637' Scotch 4010T . Prolly similar. But not the right stuff.
Where do you buy yours? Do you get it locally?

[pray59]

I bought mine at papermart where I get all my shipping supplies.
Papermart Tape Page (http://www.papermart.com/templates/30-0-30.htm#GO_30044)

You can find it a t lots of places like craft stores and art supply stores by the mattboard and picture frame section.

Mister Art sells it: 3M Scotch ATG Adhesive Transfer Tape 924 (http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?store=001&group_id=1491)

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

One of these days, I'll have progress pics, but for now, a simple progress report will have to do...

Grade all laid down, cork installed on entire mainline and passing sidings. The spurs and stuff are laid, awaiting dry time for cork to be installed. The contact adhesive I bought is what I'm using, and it works well. About the same room for error as with the ATG stuff...

Basic scenic land forming has begun.

[ March 24, 2006, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: HemiAdda2d ]

[HemiAdda2d]

My little assistant is in the upper left....

Here's a progress pic:

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aao.jpg

[Chris333]

Hey another foam head! :cool:

What are you using for track?

[Kurt Moose]

I see your using my favorite tool for foam! I call it the "grader" graemlins/223.gif , that yellow handled thingy for scrapin' foam. Works like a champ! graemlins/220.gif

[HemiAdda2d]

Yeah, I love my Surform tool...
Track will be Wright turnouts with RS-3 springs, and Peco Z flex.

[HemiAdda2d]

Here's the latest:
The 'grader' has done its job!

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aam.sized.jpg

[pray59]

Looking good Hemi! Those grades look like they are not going to give you any problems. It looks you are going to have one heck of a scenery to track ratio! You have room for a really big town there.

I can't wait to se what your scenic divide looks like!

-Robert graemlins/wink.gif

[HemiAdda2d]

It's in progress. I stacked the foam last night, so far, it's topped 10" high. I need to carve yet, so that will likely scale down quite a bit. Pics soon... Not a whole lot of room for a town after the continental divide goes in....

[JoeS]

Hemi looks good! Looka like you got a good little helper! I have 3 boys at home the oldest is 7...they want to help...but ya got to keep your eye on them. I don't know if there is a quicker animal than a 2 year olds hand when it reaches to grab something. graemlins/220.gif Good work!

[HemiAdda2d]

Originally posted by JoeS:
I don't know if there is a quicker animal than a 2 year olds hand when it reaches to grab something. graemlins/220.gif Good work! Yeah, I think a 12-month-old is in the running for quickest sticky-fingers.... :rolleyes:

I almost made a booboo.. I glued the whole mountain stack up, and forgot to not glue it to the base. It has to be removable for ease of maintenace, cleaning, derailment cleanups, etc. I remembered just when it was about half-cured. Careful prying got the job done. Good thing the glue isn't more quick!

[HemiAdda2d]

Carving ensued today, and additional land forming commenced!
Getting closer to tracklaying time!

I like doing scenic forming first--keeps the mess off the track!!!

Future home of a wild mountain river:

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aau.sized.jpg

Tunnel area, will receive additional portal work, and a facade of sorts to separate the tunnels insides:

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aat.sized.jpg

More work to be carved:
Opposite side of last picture:

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aas.sized.jpg

Overview of the upper & under side:

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aar.sized.jpg

[JoeS]

Looks great, between you and Chris, we are getting a lot of great ideas and techniques for future layout work! Thanks for sharing. :D

[HemiAdda2d]

Hey, I'm learning this as I go...
I figured installing landforms and rough-scenicking first is a good idea. Next time, I'm doing my N scale layout this way, too. The more I work ont his one, the less space I have at the bottom for a 2-track 'yard'... I may be down to 1 track... I bought some styrene sheet to build tunnel portals from, generally based off a D&RGW prototype, since I have dozens of pics of them to choose from... I'm also leaving a tunnel or 2 with bare rcut rock portals.

[pray59]

Great progress! You can always "Blast" room for the track with a steak knife to get that track back into the layout.

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

Sure is easier than using dynamite, drills, sledgehammers and pickaxes!

[Chris333]

I haven't tried this yet, but here is a page on carving foam into rocks:
http://www.hirstarts.com/tips9/tips9.html

[HemiAdda2d]

I think I'll try that. Rock molds & plaster and me don't get along too well..

[HemiAdda2d]

New update:
The mainline is complete! I laid it today, just to see if I liked my method of laying track with contact adhesive. The low VOC stuff didn't do too well, but I just grabbed my tube of Walther's Goo,a nd went to town. Since the cork roadbed was coated with dried (but slightly tacky) latex contact adhesive, it worked instantly. I ran an F7 with 2 boxcars around, using a 9V battery as power. Next time around, I'll be adding feeders and a bus wire to send power.
It was so refreshing to see trains run!

[N_S_L]

Hemi, I dont believe you graemlins/nono.gif You must show pics to prove yourself graemlins/wink.gif

[pray59]

We're ready for another photo installment Hemi! tongue.gif

-Robert graemlins/wink.gif

[HemiAdda2d]

Proof is forthcoming, gang....
I cannot believe I used that word is a sentence! And it's more than 2 syllables?!?

[HemiAdda2d]

As shocking as it sounds, the first try in over 2 years resulted in no kinks, and the loop runs reliably so far....

Sorry for the lackof the scenic block--I forgot to reinstall it.
The wires are ready for feeders to be soldered on....

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aay.sized.jpg

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aax.sized.jpg

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aaw.sized.jpg

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aav.sized.jpg

[shamoo737]

Hemi, it looks great. If I was going to do my layout again, I might steal your track plan.

[Torsja]

Nice Hemi.
What type off tournouts have you used?
They look quite nice.

[Chris333]

Awww man, your gonna have trains running before me...

Was curious how long a train you'll be running? I figure about 15-17 cars will be all I can fit on my 2x4 layout and still not look crowded. Instead of a ABBA set pulling it will probably go ABA to save space as well.

I need to get off my arse.

[HemiAdda2d]

C333,
4-5 cars is all that'll fit on either siding, plus engine and caboose. I could run 10 cars trains, doubleheaded, and my 2 GP's will pull the stack train, all 4 cars of it.
My turnouts are the Peter Wright turnouts, with 'RS-3' (ridiculously simple, model 3) springs to actuate them. I like the track plan, I think it will work well!!

[Chris333]

I didn't check my siding. It's just there for looks and for switching the town area.

I'll know better once I can run a train the whole way around. A little more than a foot to go!

[HemiAdda2d]

Well, my first numbers were estimations...
After tracklaying was completed earlier today, I tested my work for kinks, derails, etc. I also tested my siding length as well. Max: F7 and 4-40' cars and caboose, or 5-40' cars and no caboose.
50' cars were even lower... 3 cars and caboose, or 4 and no caboose. Stack cars: untested--all 4 might fit with GP30. All 4, and both engines--non-clearing, could add new opportunities and difficulties for operations. Can you say 'Saw-by' meet?

[HemiAdda2d]

Track all laid, as you know, and wired. Frogs powered. Brown paint coat number 1 went down today. Instead of the Pink Petunia Central, it's starting to look like dirt. And that's a good thing!

[pray59]

Photo's please! :D

[HemiAdda2d]

Well, the mountain/scenic break is unpainted so far. I'll get pics of it when it is all painted. maybe with some grround foam...

[HemiAdda2d]

Nothin' fancy, still has the track masked..
http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aaz.sized.jpg

http://www.railimages.com/albums/Z/aba.sized.jpg

[JoeS]

Really starting to take shape! Thanks for the pics!

[pray59]

Yes it's looking good. It's amazing how much progress you have made in the past 2 months. Keep up the great work, and posting photos! ;)

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

I would like to get some cheap deep green paint, and paint the tunnel interiors and 'facia' edges of the layout. That's why it's still pink & blue.
Thanks, guys! Thanks to my crazy work schedule, progress is very slow...
But, it helps keep food on the table, and new trains for the rails!

[Chris333]

Hey I see some slide switches sticking out there:beer:

[HemiAdda2d]

Your eyes serve you well, Chris!
Eventually, they will be mounted in the facia, with a track schematic, and a cool label as well. I am looking to buy one of these: Brother Label maker (http://www.imagesupply.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=125&idproduct=770); I want one that print any font from your puter. I plan on printing a few in Empire Builder font and a bunch in Rio Grande font..
Imagine that!