Laser, Laser, Laser

[JR59]

Hi Laser-Pro's!

I spend the last 2 hours reading a lot of "old" Posts on this Board. I've seen such beautiful things that are made with a laser. Now I want to know more about this thing. graemlins/226.gif
How much is a laser?
How can you make a laser kit?

Please show me some pictures about the Laser and the process.

thanks a lot!
Jürg

[pray59]

You can find a 12 watt laser engraver for about $7000 dollars, and they go up from there. About $10,000 gets you a 25 watt laser that will fullfill all your hobby needs.

Yes, it's a bit of pocket change, but you can reproduce your projects. I have made over 1000 kits with mine, and hundreds of models for my own use.

Most people use Corel Draw for drawing their models, but any vector drawing program like Autocad, Illustrator, and others will work.

Raster drawing programs like "MS Paint" only produce bitmap drawings that drill thousands of holes to draw a line or picture, so those are of no use, you need to cut lines with a vector program.

I have about 50 Z Scale models drawn up now, and if I break a model, I just cut out parts and make another. All you have to do is look at a photo, and imagine all the layers of parts it would take to stack up into a model, then you can build it.

My friend Kim was so impressed by what could be done with a laser that he bought one also. A couple more of the guys in our club have bought their own copies of Corel Draw, and have designed their own projects for cutting on the laser.

One guy, Steve Wesolowski, often comes over and we design special projects that he is using to win model contests at our local NMRA meets.

In our local NMRA division, there are dozens of members who are model railroad manufacturers, and a few of them also have lasers. I went to a clinic presented by Kermit Paul a few years back on how to design projects for laser cutting, and learned all kinds of techniques for drawing up models, and now I am hooked.

I cannot live without my laser, and would drive an old broken down car if it means I can own a laser. So I do! The money that would have bought me a new car, instead bought me a new laser and an old used car.

I have made my laser pay for itself, and it's not hard to do... just build the models you want for yourself, then offer a few as kits.

-Robert graemlins/wink.gif

[pray59]

Kim's is 45 watts, has a 12"x 24" table and looks like this:
http://www.marshfield.k12.wi.us/jrhi/techedwebpage/Pictures/laserengraver.jpg

Mine is 35 watts, has a 12" x 8" table and looks like this:

http://www.laserproi.com/product/images/patent_ventilation_venus.jpg


-Robert

[Curn]

Pray-

From Your web-site:

“I also made my own laser cut shingles. The first model has $10 worth of Paper Creek Model Works laser cut shingles, and I had to reduce the cost. The first ones I made cost about $7 worth of laser time, but I figured out how to reduce the costs to under $2 worth of laser time.”

Does this mean there is a cost to actually operating the laser, or does that mean that the laser burns out after so many hours of usage, and so laser time is money spent on buying a new laser? Is there any other maintenance cost associated with these?

[pray59]

That's a good question, and that is how I price my kits.

The laser needs some maintenance to keep operating. In the case of my laser, first there is the CO2 laser head, and a visible red laser that must deliever the beams to the cutting surface.

For beam delievery, there are 4 mirrors, and a focusing lens. These optics are specialized to the wavelength of the laser, and are subject to smoke, ash, and dust buildup. When the laser encounters contamination on an optic, it burns it off. When that happens, the normally reflective or transmissive surfaces are subject to great heat bulidup which results in damage to the optics.

These optics are considered consumable items, and cost anywhere between $400 and $800 depending on the optic. Average lifespan is about 400-500 hours, but some optics survive longer. The laser head is supposed to last 20,000 hours, and can be recharged to as good as new for a few thousand dollars.

Careful and regular cleaning helps extend the life of the optics, and using a filtered air assist gas helps prevent smoke buildup on the focusing lens, which is closest to the work.

Then there is also the cost of running the laser. Between the laser, computer, air assist pump, and exhaust blower, I use over 2000 watts of power.

Based off all the above, I charge $1 a minute for laser time. When I bought my laser, it was estimated that pricing of laser engraving be set between $50-75 an hour. The cost of the lasers have gone down about 25% since I bought my laser, however, the price of consumables and replacement parts have gone up slightly, as well as the cost of energy to run the tool.

So the bottom line is, it's a great tool to make the stuff you cannot otherwise build yourself, especially in reproducable quanities, but unless you offset the cost by making a few extras to sell, it's an expensive tool that most people can live without.

And as for those laser cut shingles? It took several minutes to cut 1 sheet of shingles, but by tacking several sheets of material together with glue around the edges of the sheets, I was able to cut through all the sheets in just under 15 minutes.

-Robert

[JR59]

Thank you Robert for the good information about this technology. Is it possible for you to put a printscreen from your computer running a project in Corel Draw in this Board. I'm still don't know how a drawing has to look like therewith a laser can cut it out. (Sorry my english is very limited).

Regards
Jürg

P.S. Is there a Website about this type of lasers?

[Powersteamguy1790]

Robert:

Thanks for your input on the laser and it's uses in model making.

That's very interesting.

Stay cool and run steam...... graemlins/cool.gif :cool: :cool:

[HemiAdda2d]

We have one of the 24TT's at work... So far, we're learning with it, but it has so far cut 5/16" deep in 3/4" solid oak... It amazed us how much the laser performance improved with a simple mirror cleaning.
I seriously want one, but even with the prospect of it paying for itself, I still cannot justify the initial 7-10 grand...

How do you use Corel draw to make detailed, precise drawings of someting like a caboose? How can you get the measurements correct? graemlins/headscratch.gif graemlins/headscratch.gif graemlins/headscratch.gif

[pray59]

In corel draw I just draw out what I see, then adjust it for the real measurements divided by 220, making allowances for the kerf of the cut. I sometimes have to use Modelers License for things like window placement, because while I can often get measurements for the window sizes, I often have to count the 3 1/2" boards and stuff. Also, lots of cars that were supposed to be built identical, are slightly different due to rebuilds and stuff.

Next I cut out all the parts, and build one, and make adjustments to the parts for better fit. Usually that is a bit of a compromise due to the thickness of the materials I have to work with, but overall the models measure up pretty good. Z is much harder than N at getting exact measurements, for reasons like coupler height and stuff.


http://www.railimages.com/albums/robertray/abq.jpg

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

Makes good sense. I'm tempted to find C-D and try to build a kit, and laser it at work. I couldn't use the machine for production work, or for a business, but for a few personal uses, shouldn't be a big issue. I could also tweak the plan for the 01400's, and get it where it needs to be, then ship the plan out to you for production. Would that work? I also want one in Z now..

[pray59]

Well, there is a difference from machine to machine, as my drawings don't come out well on Kim's machine, but I we can probably burn the parts on Kim's machine, making the drawings you do on your work machine the same.

Also i can make adjustments if needed for my machine.

-Robert

[HemiAdda2d]

Now, I just need to find Corel Draw..

[JR59]

I have found very useful information on the following website: http://www.epiloglaser.com/sample_club.htm

Robert are you working with a epiloglaser like Kim?

Regards
Jürg

[pray59]

Mine is a Laser Pro, and Kim's is the Epilog. There are a few differences between our machines, that make Kim's more suited to some tasks, and mine for others at this point.

That may change as Kim gets more experienced with his, as he is learning new tricks every day, so it may be his laser turns out more capable, simply by virture of it's more powerful laser head, and larger vector cutting table.

My machine is originally designed to be a rubber stamp making machine, and was upgraded with the 35 watt laser from the 12 when I bought it, so it could do cutting tasks, but it was not designed with a vector cutting table, which is something that I made myself for it.

-Robert

[pray59]

Ahh, Lasers revisited...

Well, this is the deal... Kim had bought a 1.5" lens and modified his laser to fit it. Now he can cut plywood strips as thin as 1/128".

The new lens has a higher numerical aperature, which allows the beam to focus much finer than the 2" lens that I have. As the numerical aperature increases, so does the power density, so you can cut parts much faster too. Also the focus gets much better, but the depth of focus decreases, so the thickness of material that can be cut decreases.

This is not a problem for us Z Scalers as we want to cut very fine lines in very thin sheet stock.

Now I want to get me a 1.5" lens real bad! I can't sleep at night just thinking of all the upgrades to my projects that I can do.

Someone asked about the Versalaser. That is a good laser for the price, about $10,000 and a good size cutting table, but bang for the buck would go to the Epilog Mini, as it's loaded with all the necessary features to get you cutting your own model empire with excellent results.

It's most important features are air assist and a built in vector cutting table, where you would have to pay much extra to get the same features out of other comparitively priced lasers. Their lifetime warrantee bearings are nice too!

[kimvellore]

I would like to add a few more tips after seeing Rob's laser and working on mine. It would be nice to have a laser cutter with this function ie: being able to move the laser head manually by hand and define that as the starting point. The newer laser that has servo motors are able to do that but not mine. The biggest advantage is you don’t have to worry about where to place the part in the laser cutter.

Another thing about the lasers is each company try’s to sell what they have as being better one example is a stepper motor is better than servo motor and vice versa
But I feel the servo is better the only reason is speed. At many occasions I have had to run at 100%speed and 10 % power, it is just another knob to try different materials, also in raster mode you get great effects with a faster speed. 80 inches per second feel awesome to watch too. I have been making interiors of homes like carpets and window screen using raster mode and paper.

Also having the lens covered and with positive pressure is very helpful in keeping the lens clean. Epilog sells their machine with open lens saying it is good because it is easy to clean. Bottom line after you get your machine you will find a lot more uses for it.

Kim

[animek]

Also having the lens covered and with positive pressure is very helpful in keeping the lens clean. Epilog sells their machine with open lens saying it is good because it is easy to clean. Bottom line after you get your machine you will find a lot more uses for it.

Kim
Thanks Kim for your info, but I don't understand your last paragraph, is your lens covered from hading an option, since Epilog as an open lens, if I understand your point correctly.

Or you mean "covered" in an warranty covered way.

[pray59]

What he means is an open air lens like the Epilog lasers have, giving easy access to cleaning of the lens, or a sealed positive pressure lens holder (covered lens) like the LaserPro and Pinnicle lasers have, that have a nozzle which doubles as the air assist nozzle.

The covered lens stays cleaner, but you must have clean air going into the air assist line or you will build up an oily film on the lens. I put a filter inline with my air to minimize the film effect on the lens.

[Biggerhammer]

Is there any company or person out there who takes in business for their laser- ie if I design a kit that I would like laser-cut, could I send that design and a check somewhere and get back a kit?

If so, any idea what it would cost? I'm planning out some N-scale houses and apartments, and the quantity makes scratchbuilding unpalatable.

[animek]

What he means is an open air lens like the Epilog lasers have, giving easy access to cleaning of the lens, or a sealed positive pressure lens holder (covered lens) like the LaserPro and Pinnicle lasers have, that have a nozzle which doubles as the air assist nozzle.

The covered lens stays cleaner, but you must have clean air going into the air assist line or you will build up an oily film on the lens. I put a filter inline with my air to minimize the film effect on the lens.

Wow! You guys should write a book for potential buyers, you had discovered so many maintenance issues, and practice, I'm sure that those experience would help a lot of peoples.

Thanks

[RSmidt]

Yeah, sell the book and maybe it could help pay off the lasers. ;-)

Randy

[pray59]

haha! It was guys like you who paid off my laser Randy! :D

[kimvellore]

You can check
http://www.kingmill.com/shop/index.php

The only thing I dont like about this business model is you will have to buy their software to design and only they can laser cut for you. The software should at least be free since only they can laser cut it for you.

Kim

Is there any company or person out there who takes in business for their laser- ie if I design a kit that I would like laser-cut, could I send that design and a check somewhere and get back a kit?

If so, any idea what it would cost? I'm planning out some N-scale houses and apartments, and the quantity makes scratchbuilding unpalatable.

[Biggerhammer]

You can check
http://www.kingmill.com/shop/index.php

The only thing I dont like about this business model is you will have to buy their software to design and only they can laser cut for you. The software should at least be free since only they can laser cut it for you.

Kim
I found a free DXF editor on the net. I'll play around with it, see if I can create a decent wall or two just as a test.

[pray59]

Hi Biggerhammer, if you go to the Kingmill site, and download their template sheet, (it has a .dxf template in the .zip file) there is a simple 4 wall drawing to get you going on drawing your own projects. It has break lines at appropriate places so the part don't fall off the sheet and get sucked up the exhaust, and it has the specified clearances of where to place your parts on your sheets so everything gets cut properly.

And it's free, as they also do laser cutting as a service with your own artwork. ;)

[animek]

Man ! I've been doing calculations for the last 3 days, and just the basic 25 watt, with no ventillation, will pull me of $12,500 dollars.

A second morgage will probably do to buy that thing, (jusk kidding)
But on the other hand I'm seriuoulsy thinking of a banking loan, is that what you guys did?

[pray59]

I was working at a factory that was slated to shut down, and they asked me to stay and unhook all the equipment, for which they paid me a big bonus. Well after the factory had been closed for 5 months, and I still could not even get an interview anywhere, I decided to go into business for myself, and used the money to buy my laser.

I researched home businesses, and found that a laser cutter could be used for all kinds of things from Italian Charms and Pen Engraving, Sign Engraving, and Architectural Model cutting. I went for the Architectural cutting, and only found 1 job in 5 months, meanwhile I was dabbling with making cabooses. I decided to sell kits for a living next.

Well just about the time I got started, I got an interview for a regular job, and now I build 3500 watt Laser Spike Anneal systems. So I got my money back from the laser after selling kits for a year, and now I just have to pay for upkeep of the machine. Now it is a tool that I cannot live without. I would lease a system if I did not have one. There are leases available for a couple hundred a month on these machines.

[animek]

Wow! What a story, thanks Robert for this life experience.
It may sound weird saying that, but it helps understand how you can manage in difficult time, by knowing what others did.

I've notice you don't show priced caboose on your site, Are they announce elsewhere? Or pricing is per emails request only?

Thanks

P.S. I hope I'm not too intrusive.

Ben

[pray59]

I don't sell rolling stock kits anymore. It takes too much of my hobby time because of the volume of work, but I will be selling structure kits. I have sold as many as 25 car kits of the same kind to a modeler, yet never more than 2 structures, as people need less of the same structure.

I work so much overtime that I was too burnt out to continue, so I dropped my rolling stock kits. Now I have a bit of time to enjoy the hobby more. I have a bunch of structures I plan on making into kits, but I am going to take it slow for now.

[animek]

I work so much overtime that I was too burnt out to continue, so I dropped my rolling stock kits.

So you don't have any more Z-scale Caboose to sell?
I wish I could get one of those, well depending of the price.
How much were you selling those for? Just to make sure I don't find your products on ebay at higher cost sold by someone else.

Thanks

Ben

[pray59]

How much were you selling those for? Just to make sure I don't find your products on ebay at higher cost sold by someone else.

I think you can still find some at Hobby Smith, but they are sold out everywhere else. http://www.hobbysmith.com/

[animek]

Haaaaaaa! HO my god! just $26.99 for something as well done. With all those details, I'm shock. (Plus there's the markup between you and the seller which does not leave you with much.)

Thanks Robert.

[animek]

Haaa Man! No fair!

From: Ron [mailto:ron@hobbysmith.com]

Hello Ben,

I just sold my last Z scale caboose kits yesterday. Sorry about that.

Ron
ron@hobbysmith.com
www.hobbysmith.com
503-284-1912

[animek]

I’m still doing a lot of research on the laser equipment.

Robert, I’ve notice that your laser does not have an exhaust connections.

- Is it because you have an internal filtering system in your model?

- I also notice on other laser forums, were the Epilog laser was suppose to cut a 1/16x1/16 square on a thin sheet of plywood, The laser had in reality cut 2 parallel S shape lines (not the full square, see pic), would that be considered
1- An out of focus laser head?
2- Some setup speed being too fast?
3- Or a dirty lenses?
This one I’m asking to see if it is a laser limitation.

Thanks

[animek]

Anyone has an answer to this?

[HemiAdda2d]

We have an Epilog 35-45 wat unit at work, and it performed very poorly at first. Once the lenses, mirrors and such were cleaned, it would cut deeper, more crisply, and with less burning.

[pray59]

I did not see this post before, but from what you posted as being cut, the laser's XY motion must have messed up. If the XY movement was in a square pattern, and the laser cut 2 S patterns as you described, then some optic must be flopping around as the XY head moves. Maybe a mirror loose in it's mount.

[animek]

Thanks Hemi, thanks Robert.

Robert, what about your exhaust system ? Is it incase into your laser internally?

[pray59]

I have exhaust. I use a 660CFM dust collector from Harbor Freight, but without the bag attached:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=31810

I don't care what they say, or who tells you what! Even if they claim to be an expert! You need exhaust pumped outside of the building!

Never buy one of those indoor odor eliminator assemblies, they put the poison gases back in the room, just as soon as the activated charcoal saturates. The stink has carcinogen written all over it. Don't mess around.

If you buy overhead projector sheets, or just about any clear plastic sheet protectors from the office supply store to use for windows, and cut them with your laser, you are most likely cutting CPVC or Clear Poly Vinyl Chloride.

When the laser disassembles the molecules, you will release hungry Chlorine into the atmosphere, which quickly attracts water vapor out of the air to create HCL or Hydrochloric Acid in a gaseous form. One huff, and you will learn how to cough with true authority!

I put my exhaust blower in the backyard and covered it from the elements, and ran a 4" flexible aluminum dryer exhaust duct out to it.

[animek]

Thank you for this great info!

Ben

[HemiAdda2d]

We have a charcoal 'odor reducer' at work--I never knew that. How do you know when the charcoal is shot?

[pray59]

When it gets wet and sticky inside, and you start smelling something funny.

[HemiAdda2d]

Okie dokie. We laser'd a chunk of rubber sheet the other day, and it stunk upo the whole shop... That's WITH the reducer. In the older days, before the odor reducer, the whole building stunk when doing leather, or foam cutouts. Ugh..

[animek]

Robert
for you exhaust.
Did you Pearce your cement wall, or did you replace one of you basement windows with a plexi with a hole in it to pass the 4" pipes?

Ben

[cgwfan]

And while your at it robert, Have you tried cutting styrene, like the evergreen or plastic struct material. 020 ~ 060 sheets?

thanks
kestutis

[pray59]

Robert
for you exhaust.
Did you Pearce your cement wall, or did you replace one of you basement windows with a plexi with a hole in it to pass the 4" pipes?

Ben

I cut a round 4" hole in the wall, and inserted one of those dryer hose vent ports through. My outside wall is made out of redwood, as the house is 60 years old in the SF Bay Area, and many homes were made from redwood back then.

[pray59]

And while your at it robert, Have you tried cutting styrene, like the evergreen or plastic struct material. 020 ~ 060 sheets?

thanks
kestutis

Yes I can cut that styrene, but not fine detail work, just stuff like car sides. The problem is that styrene tends to melt, so fine work just turns into a blob of goo, but structure sides, and roofs are easy to do, as well as car sides and anything bigger than 1/4" square.